Aryan Invasion Theory has been proved to be a myth and as a wrong theory long back. But let me explain in detail the actual history and dirty politics behind this theory. Note that this theory was used as a basis by Hitler to advocate his theory of the supremacy of the Aryan race and to mindlessly kill whom he claimed to be non-aryans!
Definition
Let us first see what the Aryan Invasion Theory says.
It calls the race which belonged to the vedic age as Aryans. It says that at around 1500 BC Aryans, (which it says was a tribe from the Europe) invaded north India plundering and pushing down the local Dravidians (who it says were the original natives of India) who lived there to down South India. In a nutshell, it says the North Indians of today belong to an Aryan race which came to India from Europe and today’s South Indians are the native Indians (called Dravidian Race!) who lived in North India before the Aryans came! The vedic people who lived in North India during the vedic ages were these Aryans, it says!
First let us see how did they arrive at these dates! It was well known in India in the british period that Vedas pre-dated Christ, since they definitely pre-dated Buddha who lived some 400 years before Christ. Some scholars(!) then said that as per Bible the world was created in 4000 BC(!), and Noah’s flood took place in 2500 BC(!). So they decided that Aryan Invasion of India must have taken place only after this flood and before Buddha, and hence would be around 1500 BC! This is the funniest investigation I have ever heard about. I doubt if anybody can dare to call this a scientific investigation! This is what some call as, adjusting history to be compliant with religious texts
Now let us see some of the obvious proofs that have thrown this theory into dustbin.
Aryan is not a race!
First of all Aryan is not a race. No where in the vedas and other ancient Indian text is the terms Aryan used to refer to a race!! Aryan in Sanskrit means Gentleman. It is used in Sanskrit like how in English we use the term Mr, that s all about it!
Even Max Muller who initially termed vedas as childish (only to be later criticized by other scholars as a person who doesnt know even basic sanskrit!), later tried to correct himself in many occassions about the Aryan race! He said:
I have declared again and again that if I say Aryas, I mean neither blood nor bones, nor hair, nor skull; I mean simply those who speak an Aryan languageto me an ethnologist who speaks of Aryan race, Aryan blood, Aryan eyes and hair, is as great a sinner as a linguist who speaks of a dolichocephalic dictionary or a brachycephalic grammar.
(Max Mueller, Biographies of Words and the Home of the Aryas, 1888, pg 120)
Dravidians was not a separate race!
The people of south India whom the Aryan Invasion theory says were the original natives, are NOT a race separate from the North Indians! They all belong to one and the same race. The ancient Indian vedic race. This is because, the languages of both, the so called Aryan and Dravidian people have their roots in Sanskrit language. Both worship the same Gods. Both have the same epics. Both have same philosophies. Both have histories which date back to BC..
Given these facts, how can then Aryans and Dravidians be two separate races? If Aryans had invaded India then why are Dravidians following the same customs and religion as aryans. How do they speak languages which originated from the same parental language?
Why dont any dravidian folk lore or ancient texts or sayings or stories or epics exist which talk about the so called Aryan invasion? Also why do the vedic texts talk about locations in South India? The Ramayana, Mahabharatha all talk about South Indian locations even below and beyond the main land of India into the Indian ocean like Srilanka! If Aryans were from europe and if they invaded North India and pushed local people down to South India, where did these locations come from?
This proves beyond doubt that there do not exist any separate Aryan and Dravidian races. Instead natives of both North India and South India belong to one single race called the Vedic Indian race!
No mention of Europe!
There is no mention of any location outside the mainland of India in any of the vedic texts! If aryans came from Europe, then why havent the so called aryans mentioned any of the european locations in any of the vedic or related texts? The farthest location away from India towards the west mentioned in the vedas is Kadhahar of present day Afghanistan, which was called Gandhar in the vedic texts and was said to be the kingdom of Shakuni.
Why haven’t any of the texts mentioned about their European locations? Why is there no vedic text which talks about migration from Europe?
No European Rivers!
None of the vedic texts talk about rivers outside India! Everybody knows that rivers were the major sources of water for all ancient civilizations and so all ancient civilizations were centered around the world’s major rivers. Why is there no mention of any European river or a river outside India anywhere in the vedic texts? Wouldn’t a race mention something or the other about its native place in at least one of its texts?
Saraswati River
This is a death blow to the Aryan Invasion theory. According to the Aryan Invasion theory the aryans who invaded India in around 1500 BC settled on the banks of Indus or Sindhu river in North India.
The vedic texts talk about Ganga Yamuna Saraswati as the trio river , the three great rivers of their age. Ganga and Yamuna rivers exist even today in North India and till sometime back Saraswati was thought to be a mythological river. But vedas talk about Saraswati as a mighty river that flowed in the north India during the vedic ages!
There is also the mention of the Ganga Yamuna Saraswati merging at a place called Prayag , which was also called the Triveni Sangam (the current Allahabad in North India where today only Ganga and Yamuna meet). It is said that the Saraswati that merged here with the other two rivers was a subterranean channel of the main river of Saraswati.
The Mahabhartha talks about Saraswati river saying that it dried up in a desert! So it has to be noted here that Mahabhartha can be dated back to the drying up of the Saraswati river!
Recent satellite images and geological excavations have proved the existence of a ancient river in North India, with exactly the same features of river Saraswati described in the vedas and Mahabharatha! Today Saraswati is a dried up river today. Before Saraswati dried up, the present Rajasthan was a lush green area! The drying up of Saraswati created the Thar desert in Rajasthan. Even the current dry beds of Sindh and Baluchistan (currently in Pakistan) were lush green fertile lands before the Saraswati river dried up!
See Saraswati Darshan for a related video and explanation. Below is a image of the path of Saraswati river in ancient India. The source is http://www.aryashaadi.com/.

Below is a satellite image of the dried up bed of Saraswati river. The source is http://www.stephen-knapp.com . Note that in some places the river is as wide as 7 kilometers!

Why did the Saraswati river dry up? The plate tectonics of the Indian sub continental plate and the himalayan sources of this river are thought to be the main reason for that. Sutlej and Yamuna were the main sources of the Saraswati river. As the Indian plate moved up towards the main Eurasian plate, the course of Yamuna got altered in the Himalayas moving more water of Yamuna towards the Ganga river and that of Sutlej got altered to join Indus! This caused a major loss in terms of its water source for the river Saraswati and is thought to have been the cause for its drying up.
Now what does Saraswati river have to say about the Aryan Invastion theory of 1500 BC? Well, the geological excavations give a date of about 4000 BC for the drying up of Saraswati river !
Same Human Race
There are four primary human races in the world. They are Caucasian, Mongoloid, Australian and Negroid. The so called aryan and dravidian people both belong to the Caucasian race where people only get a bit darker as one moves towards the equator which is a natural phenomenon all over the world. More sunlight means more melanin pigment in the skin. As simple as that.
So if Aryan invasion is true then it means that the Caucasian race which first evolved and lived together, then got separated into Aryans and Dravidians and both moved geographies apart, and then became one by Aryans invading Dravidians! Is there any proof for this in AIT?
Why Aryan Invasion Theory?
Then why was the Aryan Invasion Theory created? Well, more than saying created, it was popularized and promoted by the British without investigating its merits and demerits because it suited their divide and rule policy in India. The same way they divided the Hindus and Muslims in India based on religion, they also divided the Indians using this theory as Aryans (North Indians) and Dravidians (South Indians). This was the politics behind this theory. Also read this .
Conclusion
See what modern science and technology has to say about vedic science
In a nutshell, the ancient vedic people were settled in India much before 4000 BC and have nothing to do with the myth of 1500 BC invasion theory! There is no separate aryan or dravidian race. There is one single ancient Indian vedic race with roots IN INDIA. Indus valley civilization is NOT the most ancient Indian civilization. It was probably only a remnant civilization of an ancient Civilization that existed till the end of the Mahabaratha war. The most ancient Indian civilization was therefore the Saraswati valley civilization (or a Ganga-Yamuna-Saraswati civilization) of the vedic age.
Finally read this link to look beyond my thoughts on this invasion that never really happened!
Aryan Invastion Theory – THE END
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Gurudev,
Do you believe there is any chance of Vedas being patented by westerners. i.e., after some 500 years, say, they may claim all this vedic knowledge was given down by them to Indians. May be Inidians might even believe them at that time (2500 AD).
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Here goes abstract of “”Points/propose that strongly contradicts AIT= Out of India theory-OIT”"
Source : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Out_of_India_theory
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The Out of India theory (OIT, also called the Indian Urheimat Theory) is the proposition that the Indo-European language family originated in the Indian subcontinent and spread to the remainder of the Indo-European region through a series of migrations.
Originally proposed in the late 18th century in an attempt to explain connections between Sanskrit and European languages, it is today rejected by the majority of academics in the relevant fields,[1][2][3] in preference to the more widely held[4] Kurgan model.[5][6]
The Out of India theory builds on the controversial[7][8] idea that Aryans are indigenous to the Indian subcontinent and its recent revival in Hindu nationalist writing has made it the subject of a contentious debate.
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Aryan Invasion Theory is the biggest myth that was created out of political motives without any scientific proofs. The only true motive of Aryan invasion theory was to fool Indians into believing that the British have the right to rule India because Indians originally came from the aryan race of central europe of which Europeans are the true inheritors!!
All the well known historians of today world wide have called this theory “”rubbish”". Unfortunately some still continue to believe this British myth!
There is no proof of any Aryan invasion either in the form of ancient texts (including vedas), nor is there any archaeological evidence of aryan establishments outside India, and there are ample evidences of the origin of the vedic culture within India itself in the form of both ancient texts as well as historical, archaeological and geographical proofs.
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Hi Everyone,
I chanced upon this web page while searching for some articles. I read through the page about the discussions about the aryan invasion theory.
Here are my comments:
1. “”History is always writter by the winners”" – Hence we only have the Aryans version of the history.
2. The Invasion, took a long time. Comparing with the British, the British occupation itself was 300 years. Similarly, the Aryan invasion took more than a 3 to 4000 years.
During this time, there was a “”Cultural”" Mix. Proof for this would be our Vedic texts itself.
3.Aryans should not be regarded on basis of Colour. Colour has nothing to do in this. Aryans should be thought of as a way of life.
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http://chandrashekhar.sulekha.com/blog/post/2006/02/roots.htm
hi gurudev,
please go thru thw above link…something really new for me…
especially the 2nd last para..it tells something…true ??
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i dont see my posting for the past 1 week now. u r basically a biased person i feel.
Is this the way to treat a new person on ur blog?
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For argument sake even assuming that Aryan’s were of European origin and need to migrate was due to climate / food – No where in the vedic text there is any reference to the icy continent or their description there off . No mention of the nomadic movement or settling down in the plains of the Euro-asia.
Instead there is reference to Antarctic – Dakshin Gongotri – So were we the first to give the description of the icy Dakshin Gongotri ? Need further probe …
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S Sainath, in fact site contains grt contribution from experts in various fields graduated with western style of education yet have inclination towards Knowledge- Veda. They are conducting International Seminar at Hyd on Different scientific subjects and its references/solution in vedas this December 14th . They have plans to conduct such discussions at Chennai and B’lore near future.
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Thanks a lot for that nice link sainath.. will go through it
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hi gurdev or usri,
can anyone of you explain the below link in simple language
http://www.serveveda.org/cosmos_divine_scientific.pdf
Thanks
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Brilliant arguments Vinay. Thanks a lot for that info.
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Regarding Retroflex in Sanskrit, please note that even Russian, Polish have retroflex. i.e. dravidians were in Europe ? Silly. Even current AIT/AMT proponent M.Witzel has accepted that Brahui is later migration after Christ. Development of Yoga is after Rigveda ( as per ancient sanskrit scripture ) , but we find Yoga postures in small terracota statues from IVC excavationss. Sanskrit was always associated with science & technology like Maths, Metalurgy, Astronomy, Sea navigation , ayurveda etc. So, we believe that dravid people of IVC were not having terminology for their science and adopted from some nomadic aryan tribe from steppes ? When Yoga is called Yoga by accepting original indian word then why so called Dravidians of IVC will accept terminology for whole many sciences in which they were far ahead of any civilization ?
IVC shows many aspects of post vedic period.
I have noticed that some people name are more widespread in one region or used only in those region. e.g. above mentioned Kritikka nakshatra name of females mostly of Gujarat & Rajashtan. Why people will give that name to their daughters and why other people will not use that – like South Indians. If dravidians were IVC people then they would keep Kritika name in their collective memory and that will appear as names. This is just one observation of mine.
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Gurudev,
I have recently come across your blog.This is a nice blog on the whole with lots of information .
I am eagerly awaiting your unanswered questions for T.Sunitha’s questions such as
1) Origin of the word “”Mayura”" and loan Words in rigvedic sanskrit.
2) The sentences such as “Given that rig vedic sanskrit dates back to a lot earlier than tamil” & “”I have already shown in my previous comment that sanskrit
is way ancient in history by thousands of years than tamil”" are debatable and requires proper explanation.I would like you to take back your words.
About Brahui, you have mentioned about migration of people from Inner India to Balochistan during muslim invasions. I havent seen any linguist giving this
kind of hypothesis. May be this is your own hypothesis
T.Sunitha,
. The comparison of golden age of
Very nice questions. I feel now people will not take only “”Tirukkural”" into consideration when they speak about tamil
Tamil and Sanskrit is very interesting.
I=Indian,
I am still not convinced about origin of the word “”dravida”".
As per Dr. Subhash C. Sharma (Email: lamberdar@yahoo.com),
1) Adi Sankara (nearly thirteen centuries ago) called himself Dravida-putra
2) Drav (dravya, meaning water) + Vid (veed or beed, meaning ridge / edge), DravVid (used initially colloquially to represent area closest to a river, lake or
sea)
3)There is no circumstantial evidence for the origin or direct relation of the word Dravid with India-south-of-the-Vindhyas or southern peninsula
4) It simply might be that the word Dravid existed for a long time with different connotations, but lost its original meaning over time and later it was
conveniently (or by mistake) used for something else. It could then easily find its way, along with the latest meaning, into the prevailing literature and
dictionaries
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Hi all good work
Sunita and Gurudev can u please help me, i was interested finding the origins of romans culture (bcos the western thought is based on these cultures) and see if there is any ancient indian roots in them.Etruscan civilization that developed after 800BC lasted untill 396BC (Romans sacking them)was the base for romans civizations. I had already posted this link,
http://www.verbix.com/documents/etruscan-dravidian.htm
its very radical research paper that suggests that language of Etruscan has dravidian link(plz see the Dravdian and Etruscan glossary in this paper). If its true ,since the authors have used Tamil for comparision,tamil(or if there was any proto-dravidian) should have existed before 800BC .Then it would prove indeed india was cradle of civilazations
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Me ‘arrogant’ to anonymous or anonymous indirectly ‘arrogant’ to me by asking a sarcastic question. I know very well what you have in mind and why you tell this.
Probably, mixing up things and writing is your way.
If you know how to read, you never would have told me that I am against Sanskrit or Kannada or any other languages. I have told N number of times, that I have great reverence for Sanskrit and I never commented on Kannada language. If you think so, that shows the hatred inside your heart against me.
Anonymous very well knows that most of the people in India, use Sanskrit mantras. He asked me sarcastically thinking that I am against Sanskrit. And you telling me ‘hatred’. Who is ‘hatred’ myself or anonymous or you?
For people who can’t read and grasp things correctly, whatever I say is not going to get into their mind.
If a person talks about Tamil that doesn’t mean he or she is against Sanskrit. It is a common notion in India that all Tamilians are anti-Sanskrit.I very well reiterated the fact that I am not against any language. Even then, you people think that way. That shows that your mind is closed and nothing can percolate, full of hatred ness and ignorance.
“Also how can you conclude that there are other works as great as vedas? This is the mistake you have been repeatedly doing, which is talking about something without even knowing what is there in it. You havent read kannada literature and yet you spoke about it, you havent read vedas and still you speak about it. Very irrational and biased approach”
Come on words are like swords and you tell me that I talk without knowing what is there. Such a derogatory comment.
Did I every tell you that Vedas are literary works?. Had any dream?
You telling me about Sanskrit and vedas.What a joke? Do you know the depth of my knowledge on Vedas,Upanishads,Puranaas and other Sanskrit works?. You know nothing about me, but you talk .Utter ignorance. Just shut up.
Do you know how much in-depth study Iam carrying out in my day to life about languages?. You just pass comments as though you know everything. Good attitude.
Have I ever commented on Kannada literature. Its you, who want to protect your views just by having something else in mind.Very arrogant approach.
I never show off like you and that made you think like that. Wonderful. Iam not like you to jump into writing without studying anything. If I talk about the parallel existence of 2 languages. Its after lots and lots of study undertaken. Do you think I am an idiot as ?
Not like you to read very very little and say “I know this,I read this,I can compare languages etc”.
Knowledge is a ocean. I never want to say like you, “I know everything”. It is utter nonsense. You are so reckless when passing commets.
I never tried to protect my views as you do always. You never read completely, but jump into replying. Good.
I always wished to have a healthy conversation about the parallel existence of Tamil and Sanskrit. If that makes some senseless people to think that I am against other languages. I can’t help.
It is waste writing to you. Anyways, you will keep on telling the same points again and again. You never even tried to answer many of my valid points. It is total waste writing to you.
When I say “great scholars” and their “conclusion” – I really meant it. And you pass sarcastic comments on it. Good attitude to make fun of elite people.
Your words are loaded with ego, bias, ignorance, and impatience. And very well you mislead people.
You can make up things and write anything, as you like about people or events or culture or religion or language or any other. After all it is your blog.
Don’t expect any more postings from me. I don’t want to waste my valuable time by writing to a senseless,biased person, who doesn’t have an insight.
Before I depart, i want to to point out that, all of us are children of Annai Bharatam who is diverse in her culture,religion,language,literature,tradition and almost everything.
We all should stand together to make our home land a greatest power in the years to come as she was some centuries before. Our country has the most dangerous neighbours on the Earth.
Lets all unite and make our country strong. Vande Maataram
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Dear Sunitha
The points given are quite logical. Would like to mention few observations. It would be of grt help if truth is uncovered
1. As per the dissolution, language is independent of script. So only needed is the first media (=language) used in oldest work.
Parameters to be considered for this –
a. For Gen info, the oldest excavation inscriptions are not scriptural but they are pictorial
b. The work shouldn’t be hard copy as hard copy are views of individualistic in nature and are not true knowledge
c. Moreover God is the patent of Supreme Knowledge. We only have to find who was blessed first by HIM to bring down that knowledge, abridged/commented and provided it first to mankind and in which language
2. It is quite interesting to know that Tamil can be used simultaneously with Sanskrit in hymns recital. If you or anyone could throw us light on who, when and for what purpose they introduced this to the world. Currently I am looking for learned one (knowledgeable, good at both tamil and Sanskrit vedic practice) who can provide me candid information. This would help us all.
3. Coming to Agastya Mahamuni, whether he is one among saptarshi is debatable. Ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saptarishi
If we consider Vedas existed prior to Mahabharat (in fact it is true), then Agastya is not one among Saptarshi. Date of any work should be independent of authors’s birth date.
And most of other points are addressed by Gurudev.
Dear Balakrishnan
I totally agree with your points. Since I consider language as media to acquire knowledge, and that supreme knowledge is in Sanskrit media, I got into advanced Sanskrit studies. (Dear Gurudev, could you pls provide a pointer to post Sanskrit references or misc. information. Since my professor is not just graduated from any current universities and belongs to vedic practising famiy from generations, provides us lot of practical reference in every class. these are not provided in any syllabus. Wish all of us get to know about such references).
I have regards for its simplicity and thoroughness which is proved by modern science too. This does not stop me learning/respecting different languages. That is only for access to regional talented works, better harmony and livelihood. Currently introduced by my professor to I-SERVE(The Institute of Scientific Research on Vedas) when I was trying to find answers on Coal Blooded Murder – specifically on why India should not be part of Interplanetory expeditions race for materialistic gain-(there are evidence in veda’s about ancient indians did interplanatory journey for spiritual reasons). Sharing this site for interested one’s benefits. We may find experts views. They have agreed to clarify my doubts and informed me to read all works provided in url prior to that.
Dear I=Indian
You have provided wonderful information about “Dravida”. Now apart from my priority to gain scientific knowledge , I also learnt knew thing. thank for your contribution.
Dear Ananymous
Your questions are quite justifying and you seems to learn unabiased facts. Sure you and also Pandian, can contribute a lot and also make us to carry research on our comments itself.
My new work and in accessibility to net are hampering my participation. But only these stimulating, truth finding discussion quenches my thirst and makes my day. I shall provide my comments upon good research/debates with learned ones(Thank God for providing such access) in less frequency.
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Sorry Gurudev, It becomes irrational to the current topic.
I = Indian, Good Going.. do you blog somewhere?
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Oh My God!
This blog has become a fish without a bicycle
How does it matter, a fish without a bicyle? It doesnt..
So it doesnt matter whether I am there or not.. the comments are on.. interesting debates are on… thank you all for all those wonderful views counterviews arguments counterarguments etc.. without your comments the blog would look like, as if I am talking to myself
Sunitha,
Why are you so arrogant to anonymous? What is so ‘anti-tamil’ in his question? He just asked a valid question. Please dont be so arrogant on that. It only proves that you are getting protective about your arguments and trying to dissuade people from asking valid questions. What is so wrong about inquiring about the language used to recite hymns in the temples? Just because the answer is sanskrit, you find it to be anti-tamil and you didnt want him to ask that question!
The language of Indus Valley civilization is not yet known. The debates are still going on, researchers are still trying to read the inscriptions. Some say the language is sanskrit based while others say it is an ancestor of so called dravidian languages. The former view is supported by the vedic texts which are in sanskrit and are associated with the ancient north India, while the latter views make use of the Brahui language in Balochi region.
But that doesnt support the parallelism of Tamil with Sanskrit. For both languages to be parallel there should be ancient literary evidences in atleast one of those languages which refers to the existence of other at that time.
OR
assuming the two languages were out of contact but existed at the same time, there should at least be literary evidences which date both languages back to the same time .
Now the oldest known sanskrit texts the vedas are dated back to atleast 5000 BC and even earlier because of the mention of the saraswati river in those texts. See http://hitxp.wordpress.com/2007/06/22/saraswati-darshan-the-revelation-of-sarasvati-river/
But the oldest available tamil work is Tolkappiam dated to around 300 BC.
Its good to be positive and search for even earlier tamil works. But until a time that such a work is found whose dating is approximately the same as that of vedic texts, there is no prima facie evidence for both the languages being parallel, atleast not in terms of literature.
Nothing can be accepted without proof just because some so called “”Great scholars”" come to some “”conclusion”". How did they conclude without proof?
Nobody here is saying that only tamil is great or only sanskrit is great. Language is just a medium of communication. Its only the people who can be judged as being great or not.
Also how can you conclude that there are other works as great as vedas? This is the mistake you have been repeatedly doing, which is talking about something without even knowing what is there in it. You havent read kannada literature and yet you spoke about it, you havent read vedas and still you speak about it. Very irrational and biased approach.
Vedas are not some mere literary works. It is the encyclopedia of knowledge written in those days. Apart from the spiritual and cultural guidance in it, apart from the great quotes in it, Vedic Mathematics, astrology, Ayurveda (medicine), Dhanurveda (military warfare), Yoga (exercise for mind and body), Puranas (documented history), the science in the vedas, music, upanishads all these are part of those ancient texts.
See for ex:
http://hitxp.wordpress.com/2007/05/28/speed-of-light-explained-in-rigveda/
http://hitxp.wordpress.com/2007/05/01/what-vedas-say-about-the-age-of-the-universe/
http://hitxp.wordpress.com/2007/04/30/scientific-verification-of-vedic-knowledge-in-hinduism/
http://hitxp.wordpress.com/2007/08/23/vedic-mathematics-simplified-part-1/
Pandian,
Yes I agree that its all about the dirty politics.
No matter how rational/irrational a person is, what he should not be doing is preaching ideology based on hatred and divisive politics. Because such people will leave a scar in the society for a long time even after they are gone.
Periyar’s approach has reflected in Karunanidhi’s statements causing a crack in the society. Brahmin Vs Non-Brahmin, Aryan vs Dravidian. And as I=Indian has clearly shown, all this so called rational thought is without any real logic or sound basis in it, and results in nothing but more racism, hatred and a social divide while achieving nothing good.
It becomes irrational when we think only about being rational rather than thinking about the actual topic
Gururaj
Yes devolution is the perfect word, which is what is the name given to the current timeline in the vedas calling it a kaliyug, where human values have reached its lowest level, where rulers will be liars and dishonest, where lust rules over love, pleasure rules over social service etc
I=Indian
Good going and strong arguments with logic, thanks for all the info. But dont try to hit only sixers all the time..
you look like the Indian cricket team which thrashed the Aussies in the semis
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Pandian
There might be 10000 different authors who rewrote Ramayana to satisfy their egos or views. What matters is the original Ramayana, and the original Ramayana is Valmiki Ramayana.
If I wrote my own version of Iliad does it become another historical version of Iliad? Any epic has only one historical version and that is the original version. All later versions are by authors who didnt even know the actual story. Valmiki was a contemporary of Rama. Are Kamba or Periyar contemporaries of Rama?
Being Anti-God is different from being Anti-human. Periyar wanted all brahmins and north Indians to be thrown out of Tamilnadu. What have people got to do with God? Do you have any idea how many brahmins were killed and tortured by Periyar’s followers?
How is he different from terrorists who want ethnic cleansing, except that the terrorists do it in the name of their God, while he does in the name of being against another particular God?
Who told you this story of Shiva and Vishnu being different. And who told this story of different hinduism? Can you call catholics, protestants and methodists as different religions and not one christianity? Can you call Shias, Sunnis, Wahabbis, etc as different Islamic religions?
Have you read the ancient vedic texts? ALL GODS including Shiva and Vishnu are mentioned there. Dont you know the trinity of Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva all being the vedic Gods? Most shiva shrines are in North India. So?
Where did you read that Ravana followed Shaivaism? Just worshipping Shiva is Shaivaism is it? Even Rama worshipped Shiva before crossing the sea, which is the place is called Rameshwaram. So? Even Rama is a shaivaite is it? Please dont talk with a narrow mind without understanding the true message in the scriptures.
Asuras in hinduism are not 100% evil spirits like satan in other religions. Asuras are also normal humans. In hinduism nobody is 100% perfect and this is true rationalism. Some people are more evil and some are more good. Ram was more good and Ravana was more evil.
Even Ravana and Kumbhakarna are praised in the original ramayana. Vibhishana who is not considered asura because he was more good than evil. What does periyar call Vibhishana? A traitor?
Even Karna is praised in Mahabharatha, Even Rama makes a mistake by killing vali from behind for which Vali comes as a hunter and kills his later incarnation Krishna, Even yudhistira makes a mistake by deliberately lying even though technically it was not a lie.
And what is this Bali thing here. Bali was not a bad asura. Vishnu gave him a boon and made him eternal. Bali did not fight with Vishnu. He worshipped Vishnu. Not only onam, even the second day of Diwali is called Balipadyami and its a festival where crackers are burnt to show light to Bali in the world beneath called patala.
Hinduism is the only religion and India is the only place where even normal humans good/bad are given an opportunity to become a God.
Read Hinduism and you will see that both gods and asuras have same ancestor called Kashyapa. The identification of symbolism is more important here which means that all good and bad have common origin and as one grows he acquires different characters.
All these greedy politicians and narrow minded people who have half baked knowledge and who dont understand the actual message talk about these silly things like Shaivaism, Vaishnavism, Horizontal nama, vertical nama, arya, dravida etc
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I= Indian,
Historically, there is not one version of Ramayana in India.
Every author has added their own gimmicks favouring characters.
recently I read a tamil story called Seethayana..
Periyar is not a hero / ideal man. There were some of his ideology is good, there were something in his ideology that is bad. His intention is to ask people to think rational but it was always seen as he was praising anti god.
I dont know whether periyar knows Ravana was Brahmin or not. but thinking rationally, the time at which the story was written, Ravana followed saivism. we cant say it as Hinduism. Hinduism is not one religion in India.
Its not only periyar, who has written in praise of Ravana.
Saiva literatures of tamil, praises Ravana..
Onam festival in Kerala is for Maha Bali, Asura.
Asuras were not bad guys as common faith of people interprets.
Luckily, most of the identified Asuras found to be rulers of South India. which favoured his ideology.
The present Hinduism hides or merges two great religions saivism & Vaishnavism. Traditionally, The fight or competition between them leads to creation of lots of stories favoring each God. ( rational )
Hindu Politics is equally clumsy as Periyar Politics.
Quote for Periyar also applies to Hindu Politics.
The principles in Hinduism is more important than mere characters/stories.
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Ravanayana? Oh man I am rotfl.
Didn’t periyar know that Ravana was a brahmin? going by periyar’s version of aryan-dravidian view, Ravana was a pure aryan, a person who was more knowledgeable than many other brahmins of the time, and still periyar calls him the dravidian who fought against aryans. What a hypocrite story.
There is a quote which applies to Periyar: You can fool some people all the time, you can fool all people for some time.. but you can’t fool all the people all the time.
Pandian, I didnt say Dravida is not a samskrit word. It is definitely a samskrit word. But what I mean was, unlike what Sunitha said, it was not a word given by Samskrit speaking people to non-samskrit speaking people. It was a word given by a foreign author called Robert Caldwell in a book about south Indian languages called “Comparative grammar of the Dravidian or South-Indian family of languages” published in 1856. Then the word was used by Periyar to refer to his separate south Indian dream, and now it is limited only to politics of Tamilnadu.
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I = Indian,
Dravida Politics was one of the main reason for the retrieval of many tamil literature that further leads to existence of current Tamil. and so, EVR was refered as Father of Tamil. But he has spoken in favor of English than tamil at one instance.anyways, EVR is not a maryatha purusha and Just another extremistic rational thinker.
I dont know whether Dravida is a sanskrit word or not. But wikipedia refers it as Sanskrit word in more than four location. Wikipedia, kindly requires your service.
About Ravana as a Hero (pls.. note it is not as God), I have to say, EVR wanted the people to think rational and wanted the people to not to worship anybody, Anti God / God / Man. EVR wanted the people to read Ramayana, as a fairy tale and not as a holy sacred text. He questions Ramayana with his own morals and ideology. He himself has used some of its morals in his Ravanayana.
But people(including me) always want to live under beliefs/conspiracies and we give more importance to characters than principles.
Nowadays, in TN, Rajni was considered as God, and His movies were considered equivalent to Epic by his fans or Bhakthas.
May be after 3000 years, the descendants of these Rajni bhakthas might shout against India, for a plan to construct a bridge in Himalayas as it destroys the Rajni’s pilgrimage path.
Also, at those time, Some people site the reference to his super human action with advance technical terms (quantum mechanics) and claim Rajni as God.
Dravida Politics is equally clumsy as Hindu/muslim/christian Politics. Is there any place without politics?..
Gururaj,
Human Devolution is a good one.
Just reminded of my college T shirt writing.
“”I was born smart, but Education Ruined me”"
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I have been reading your blogs for sometime and they are excellent. I got here while searching initially about vedic cosmology. One of the articles I have read is http://www.humandevolution.com/ID.html by M Cremo. absolutely amazing. I am curious to know what others think of it.
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Sunitha
The word Dravida was not given by samskrit speaking people to tamil speaking people. Who gave you this wrong information?
This is a brief history of the word Dravida and the Dravidian movement.
The word Dravida was first used to denote the class of the south Indian languages, from a book by Robert Caldwell called “”Comparative grammar of the Dravidian or South-Indian family of languages”" published in 1856.
The word later was first used by Periyar as an effort to unite South India in the name of Dravida, against North India.
It started for the first time in August 1944 when Periyar came out of Justice Party and formed the “”Dravida Kazhagam”". Later in 1949 there was a split in Dravida Kazhagam. This was when Annadurai came out of the party and formed today’s DMK, because he was protesting against Periyar’s decision to appoint his young wife whom he had recently married as his successor in the party.
Periyar started the idea of Dravidstan based on the Aryan Invasion theory. That too knowing very well that the British were using the AIT as a justification for their occupation of India, by saying falsely that the North Indians were the descendants of aryan british!
It was periyar who first started theatrical productions of the reinterpretation of Ramayana showing Ravana as a Dravidian hero and Rama as an Aryan villain!
Periyar also declared Indian Independence day as a day of slavery, and a day of mourning! He even called Tamil as a language of Barbarians and wanted people to embrace english instead!
But there were not many takers for the Dravidstan movement, and Annadurai/DMK gave up the demand for a separate Dravidstan in 1962. So what started in the form of a movement based on Aryan Invasion Theory, claiming for a separate south India free of Brahmins and North Indians, ended up as a political force confined to Tamilnadu.
I am saying all this just to make you aware of the dravidian movement. Tamil is a also great ancient language. Hindi should not be IMPOSED anywhere in India including in Tamilnadu. But dravida is totally a different story full of politics. Please dont mix dravida and Tamil.
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Anonymous,
First try to understand what I say before putting any Q. Have I ever questioned the antiquity of Sanskrit?.
The way you have posted very well shows that you don’t want to know anything about Tamil and simply want to question it and shows that you are a typical anti-Tamil. That shows your narrow mindedness.
The conversation is all about the parallel existence of Tamil and Sanskrit.
And also comparing the works of Tiruvalluvar by certain Tamilians with Sanskrit works shows the ignorance of a person and very well he is a amateur because Tirukkural is a Tamil work which came very much later (after Christ).
Yes, we have the option to recite mantras in Tamil. Try to read proper Tamil works before passing some silly commets.
For knowledge sake atleast try to read ‘Nallayira Divya prabandham” by Thondarradi podiazhvaar.
Gurudev,
“Dravida” is a name given by Sanskrit speaking people to non-Sankrit speaking people.
I have very well explained you about the word “Sangam” in my previous post. Why again a question of origin of “Sangam” word?
No doubt Prakrit came from Sanskrit (language of Jainism).
Yes, Tirukkural is a NOT a pure Tamil work , but which has Prakrit words in it, as Tiruvalluvar being a Jain. This is what Iam saying from the beginning.
When we want to talk about Tamil, we have to consider PURANANOORU,TOLKAPPIAM,PATHUPATTU,ETTUTHOHAI and other great Tamil works rather than Tirukkural, Bharathiyar works etc. These are very much later Tamil works.
If you argue with Tirukkural, yes, it obviously not being a pure Tamil work, everyone starts saying Tamil came from Sanskrit. The panel of scholars who decide on the classical status of a language would have never accorded Tamil a “classical langauge” status, if at all they have taken ONLY Tirukkural into account. That’s the mistake what the non-Tamil speaking people or the so called Tamilians (amateurs), are doing all these years.
There is NO question of Tamil being classical.
Loan words doesn’t mean that most of the words are derived from another language. Its just few words of a language inspired by co-existing language. I have very well shown an example of loan word (Mayura). This is what I call loan words.
Coming to the point of Rig veda, “Given that rig vedic sanskrit dates back to a lot earlier than tamil” and also “I have already shown in my previous comment that sanskrit is way ancient in history by thousands of years than tamil” – This is a VERY AMBIGUOUS statement. Iam wondering what made you to tell this; till date NO great scholars of both Sanksrit and Tamil have told this and proved this or even believed that there was NO Tamil works at the time of Vedas.Only amateurs of Sanskrit and Tamil fight which language is greater than the other (just like a fight between Saivaites and Vaishnavites). There were Tamil works as sacred as Sanskrit vedas and both languages exchanged words out of Inspiration. There were no fight between both of them, as it is in these modern days
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Most unfortunate is that, currenlty we are not able to discover those great Tamil sacred works. That’s why we are conversing like this. And also DON’T say Tamil sacred works concept what I am talking about is just an illusion. It’s the conclusion of Great scholars who have carried IN-DEPTH study on Tamil language.
The earliest Tamil work Tolkappiam, did very well suggest that there existed a rich,vast,sacred literary tradition long before Tolkappiam.
In Sanskrit after Paanini’s work,
We have discovered a flurry of literaray works
In Sanskrit before Paanini’s work
We have discovered sacred, rich works in Sanskrit.
In Tamil after Tolkappiar’s work,
We have discovered a flurry of literaray works
In Tamil before Tolkappiar’s work,
We have not discovered any works.
But Tolkappiam, very well suggest that there existed a rich tradition. This is the unfortunate state, which make us converse like this.
“And there have been no scientific evidences for the existence of any proto-dravidian languages as such. No inscriptions, literature, civilizations, nothing..”
“but given the fact that the roots of the so called dravidian languages like kannada and telugu in sanskrit”.
Kannada – Why it is called a Dravidian language if it is derived from Sanskrit?. Yes, I have lot to tell about this. Will come to this and retroflex consonants soon.
Answer me one Q, what is the language spoken by people of INDUS VALLEY CIVILIZATION?
“But it doesnt date back before 13th or 14th centuries and the historical views are that these were migrations from Inner India to Balochistan during muslim invasions.”
Again an ambiguous statement. Will take up this also soon.
Tamil was brought down to Planet Earth by Great Sage Agatsiya, one among the Saptarishis. Everyone knows and accepts that life was brought to Earth via Saptharishis. This itself is enough to say that Tamil is as divine and as old as Sanskrit.
For people who disagree, Iam ready for any kind of converstaion.
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Pandian
Anti God is NOT rational thinking.
The problem with some of these atheists is, they continuously try to prove their atheism by being anti-god, usually end up hurting the sentiments of others by making derogatory or abusive comments against a God, etc. If they believe that there is No God, then what is this Anti-God thing
btw, you said “”same is the case for any other religion”"? I dont think so. See definitions for blasphemy, infidels, non-believers etc
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Gurudev,
A small correction on chentamil & koduntamil..
it is not old vs modern tamil.
Old tamil literature says that chenthamizh and kodunthamizh as the language used by elite people vs common people (in other words upper caste vs lower caste).
Balakrishna in his earlier comments, mentions EVR as anti Hindu and Anti God.. the right word, I think is Rational Thinking..
Its a thinking for the 97% of hindus who were suppressed by the laws defined in Hindu scriptures.
In one of his speech, he says that , “”Only a Hindu can raise a question against Hinduism.”" same is the case for any other religion. It is really true, else it would be a communal fight.
Though he was also an extremist, the recent tamil movie “”periyaar”" is worth watching and a great way to know about what is rational thinking.
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anonymous
Yes the mantras are in Sanskrit.. and this is the case in all south Indian states! Because all these are from the vedic texts
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Sunitha
In your first comment you said that you knew about the aryan invasion myth and now you are talking about Indo-Aryan!! But there is nothing called aryan, and there definitely is nothing like Indo-Aryan, there is only the ancient Indian vedic culture as far as the culture of India is concerned, and ancient India was not limited to the geographies of modern India, but was spread from modern Tashkent to Afghanistan to Cambodia (based on the geographies mentioned in ancient vedic texts)
Coming back to language, kannada and telugu that are categorized as dravidian languages are definitely of sanskrit origin. So there is no aryan-dravidian divide here either. Now lets talk only about tamil. Malayalam and today’s tamil separated from a common root called chintamil.
Now the debate is about the origin of tamil and the timeline of sanskrit and tamil, I have already shown in my previous comment that sanskrit is way ancient in history by thousands of years than tamil!
And there have been no scientific evidences for the existence of any proto-dravidian languages as such. No inscriptions, literature, civilizations, nothing..
Not only that, the very claim that tamil came from a proto-dravidian language puts the classical language status of tamil in question!
*Given that rig vedic sanskrit dates back to a lot earlier than tamil, it should actually be the other way round, that these words are loaned from sanskrit to prakrit/tamil. Note that prakrit was a language spoken between 600 BCE to 1000 CE, where as Rigveda (and so Rigvedic Sanskrit) even going by the datings which give it the most recent dates are before 1500 BCE!! So how can rig vedic sanskrit loan a word from a language which never existed when it was written? Also doesnt this then suggest that tamil came from prakrit? And then the question comes that where did prakrit come from in around 600 BCE?
* Retroflexes are there even in sanskrit. Sanskrit retroflex vowels are ?, ?, ?, ? .The sanskrit retroflex consonants are ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
Any alphabet in a sankrit word that you see written in roman script with a dot below it is a retroflex consonant. Coming back to zha in tamil, of course there might be letters in tamil that are not seen in sanskrit. Thats what a language evolution means! But what supports a common origin is the number of letters that are same in both sanskrit and tamil.
* Prakrit words also came from Sanskrit. But by saying that Tiruvalluvar used prakrit words and which is why there are sanskrit words in Tirukkural, are you implying that Tirukkural is not a pure tamil work? Same about sangam too.. its a sanskrit word.
* how does the presence of La in sanskrit mean that it came from Tamil to Sanskrit and not the other way round? As I said earlier there are retroflex consonants in sanskrit too.
* Also you imply as if “”Proto Dravidian”" and “”Tamil”" are one and the same. No they are not. Proto Dravidian is an imaginary hypothetical language which is thought to be a common ancestor of dravidian languages, but given the fact that the roots of the so called dravidian languages like kannada and telugu in sanskrit, the very name proto-dravidian is questionable! The very word Dravida is a sanskrit word!
* Yes Brahui has similarity to south Indian languages with about 15% of words matching, and so definitely shares a common root. But it doesnt date back before 13th or 14th centuries and the historical views are that these were migrations from Inner India to Balochistan during muslim invasions.
As I had said earlier.. all other languages have evolved from their parents. The old classical tamil was called chentamil (before malayalam separated from tamil) and the modern tamil used commonly today is called koduntamil.
For Sanskrit, there has been no evolution observed anywhere, it is the same sanskrit that was spoken thousands of years back. Which is why many linguistic specialists have called it a “”created language”" than a evolved language. Because of this, it has been the only human spoken language identified as the one that can be converted into a computer programming language.
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T.Sunitha could you please answer my below question…
When you(tamilians) perform poojas or yajnas(havnas) etc do you recite mantras…..my question is what is the language of these mantras ??…is it tamil ??…. if it is Sanskrit….then have you or anyone ever heard mantras being recited in any other language than Sanskrit……????
Gurudev/Usri you also can provide answer by consedering your own languages please….
This might give us a pointer on parallelity of languages….
Thanks for the answers….
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Hi Gurudev,
Good to know that you have got a copy of Tolkappiam
• The Rigvedic word for ‘plough’, langala, is probably derived from Proto-Dravidian *nangal (refer T. Burrow’s The Sanskrit Language)
• Scholars have identified some twenty other Dravidian ‘loan words’ in the Rig Veda including the one I mentioned above.
• The earliest script used for writing Sanskrit is Brahmi. The period of the Brahmi script relates to the reign of Emperor Ashoka (300 B.C.). There are variations of this script which can be seen in the rock inscriptions in South India which includes four Tamil letters not seen in Sanskrit. One of them is the retroflex consonant (zha as in Thamizh).
• Controversial information is that Tiruvalluvar wrote Tirukkural during 100 BC-1st Century AD may be a Jain and the reason why we see lots of Prakrit words in it.
• “Sangam” is the word coined by the Jain people during BC 100-300 AD because Jainism was prevalent during that time. The actual word for the word Cankam, as spelt by indologists, is yet to be known.
• The presence of retroflex constants like La in Sanskrit is a definite indication of the influence of proto-dravidian language such as Tamil.
• While Dravidian languages are primarily confined to the South of India, there is a striking exception: Tamil-like Brahui ,which is spoken in parts of Baluchistan indicating that Dravidian languages were formerly widespread in North West India.
• There are some words like mayura (peacock) is, incredibly, a loan word from Classical Tamil. But neither its root (Skt. mA “”to bellow”"?) nor its suffix (yU-ra??) nor its word structure (ma? +yU-ra??) is Indo-Aryan
So I would like to conclude that there is a co-existence of Sanskrit and Tamil and Tamil did exist in parallel to Sanskrit.
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Sunitha
Interesting read!
I have one point here. Sangam literature being the oldest available tamil literature, dated between 200 BCE and 200 CE, the very word “”Sangam”" itself is of a sanskrit origin, Sangam in Sanskrit means unity, meeting.. called Sangha, mostly used by buddhist monks. Given the fact that in those days Buddhism and Jainism was prevalent in South India.
The dating of Tolkappiyam is done between 300 BCE to 10 CE (i.e between 300 BC to 10 AD) by various experts on the subject. Please see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Date_of_the_Tolkappiyam
Panini on the other hand is said to have lived between 520 BCE to 460 BCE, and hence Ashtadhyayi is atleast 2 centuries older than Tolkappiyam. Also the reference by Panini to Yavanani (Greeks) proves that Panini lived before Alexander (who invaded India around 326 BC)
Since Tolkappiyam is a book on Tamil grammar, it means that Tamil existed even before Tolkappiyam was written.
But did it exist in parallel to Sanskrit ever since Sanskrit was a spoken language? The geological evidence of the existence of the Saraswati river and the mention of this river in the vedas prove that Sanskrit existed well before 4500 BCE! The river dried out around 4500 BCE where as vedas mention the mighty flowing Saraswati river, so we can take it back easily to before 5000 BCE.
5000 years is a lot of time difference unless and until we get some other tamil literary work which dates back somewhere near to the vedic age.
Another point that I have to make is that, Mahabharatha talks about Vega(Abhijit) being the pole star and the constellation Krittika (Pleides) being at the summer solstice. Vega infact was a pole star at 12000 BCE, and Krittika was at the summer solstice between 21800 BCE and 20840 years BCE! – Vanaparva Chap 230, Verses 8-11
BTW I have got a copy of Tolkappiyam
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Hi Gurudev,
I got a few information to share with you all.
AN OVERVIEW OF THE EVOLUTION OF THE TAMIL SCRIPT
CONTRIBUTED BY N.Krishnaswamy
“”It would be appropriate and useful to supplement our presentation of an overview of the Tamil Language and it’s literature, with a broad overview of the evolution of the Tamil script. There are enough indications that the Tamil language originated and evolved independently of the Indo-Aryan Sanskritic stream of the North, in both it’s spoken and written forms. Of course, their coexistence over the millennia did lead to much mutual influence, but this does not obscure their distinctiveness. Both Sanskrit and Tamil are unique among the languages of the world, not only for being among the oldest, but also the earliest to reach the highest stage of development with a comprehensive and scientific grammar and a literature of phenomenal range and depth. Scholars will find it difficult to choose between their respective excellences.
While the earliest extant Tamil inscriptions, whether written in Asokan Brahmi, or in the local Tamil script, are set in the early centuries of the Christian era, scholars have perforce to look for additional evidence for details of earlier forms of Tamil writing only in the earlier extant Tamil literature. The earliest extant work is the Tolkappiam, the celebrated work of Tamil Grammar, often considered the Tamil counter-part of Panini’s work on Sanskrit Grammar, and considered by tradition to originate in the Sangam period of the centuries prior to the start of the Christian era.
The Tolkappiam (according to the commentator, Ilampuranar) is comprised 1595 Verses spread over three Books, each in turn, containing nine Chapters. Their comprehensive content dealing with every aspect of the structure and usage of the language does quite certainly point to the language having evolved to a high degree of sophistication over several prior centuries, or perhaps millenia. The work commences with a very detailed account of the letters of the alphabet, the way their sounds originated from the throat, and the rules and sequences in which the letters were joined to form words. The first Chapter of the First Book of the Tolkappiam is significantly entitled “” öÇêĂĂŠ “” , which refers to letters of the alphanbet, and which would normally imply both their spoken and written forms. The very first verse of this Chapter runs thus :
öÇêĂâêäçŞĂ§ĂŚĂ§
ĂĂ¦ĂµĂ‹ĂŞĂąŞ Ă¤Ă¦Ăµ ¬Ă—ôèáŞ
ËçŞĂ§ Ăľ âêäŞĂ§
òèõĂĂĄĂĂŠĂ´ĂµĂąŞ Ă«ĂµĂ§¨Ă¤Ş ßäŞĂ·Ă¨§Ş æìîô
Translated, the verse reads : “” The letters are said to be from ‘a’ to ‘n’ ( Ă to ä ), thirty in number, excluding three whose use are dependent on the others”"
The Tolkappiam itself has an explicit reference to writing in Book – 2, Chapter -1, Verse -60, where it refers to the inscription on commemorative stones of the name and valour of warriors who distinguished themselves in battle. This unique Tamil tradition persisted for long and such stones dated to later centuries have indeed been found. But we are yet to get direct cliching physical evidence, not resting on indirect surmise or inference, of how the writing actually looked at the time the Tolkappiam was composed.
The earliest extant written forms of Tamil are in the Brahmi script or in a local Tamil script in a form called the vaĂ·te¸uttu ( ôìŞĂ˘Ă¬Ă‡ĂŞĂĂŠ , meaning rounded writing) Two other names for the Tamil script found in the earliest extant Tamil literature are kaõõe¸uttu ( æúŞĂ˘ĂşĂ‡ĂŞĂĂŠ, also suggestive of the rounded shape, and
referred to in the Silappadikaram) and kĂŚle¸uttu ( îæèâùÇêĂĂŠ , suggestive of use of a stylus, and referred to in the Kural). In a Tamil article entitled “”Tamil Stone Inscriptions”", in the Silver Jubilee Souvenir of the Delhi Tamil Sangam, Professor C.Govindarajan provides the following two illustrations to show how the Tamil vaĂ·te¸uttu ( ôìŞĂ˘Ă¬Ă‡ĂŞĂĂŠ ) was quite different from the Tamil Brahmi, and also suggest that it was indeed the authentic written form of ancient Tamil.
Tamil text in Sangam Tamil ( vaĂ·Ă·e¸uttu ) ( ôìŞĂ˘Ă¬Ă‡ĂŞĂĂŠ )
Rock inscription at Thirunathar – probably 4th. Century AD
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I have some inscription pictures. Iam not sure if I will be able to paste the pictures here.
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I am equally proud of the great and glorious Indian heritge, whether the reference is to Kannada, Tamil, Sanskrit, Hindi, or any other Indian language (and the associated culture of the respective linguistic region).
It is, however, not correct to take off any one language of India, and try to argue that it is the greatest in some sense. That said, the Sanskrit language has acted as the mother of all Indian languages, providing nourishment with all the nitty gritty of grammar and treasury of words, or rather, the recipient language of India borrowed all the essential aspects for its growth, most welcomingly, from SANSKRIT ONLY. The growth based on Sanskrit has been perfectly natural, since the words (simple, and compound) are seen not only in the literature produced by scholars, or saints or Kavis (poets), but seen to have percolated right down to the mass level since they are used in every day usage. This may sound rather fanatic (about the motherly role of Sanskrit), but this is the truth which, no argument need to refute, it cannot be done sensibly.
I repeat I am a Tamilian, but once you travel a considerable part of India, stay in some of the regions for at least 5 years with a reverence for, and interest in, the local language of that region – both spoken and written. Thus, today one finds that all languages of India share the common feature of a heavy borrowing of Sanskrit words which help such a ‘reverent and interested’ traveller across India to appreciate the fundamenal unity of India, and start wondering how this came about.
On the other hand, this unity is being sort of questioned or doubted because of the permissive use of the regional TV channels – and the politicians – to placate the local masses by praising the local languages, and never say or do anything to underline the importance of cross-linguistic studies within the Indian context. For them revenues are assumed to be the sole goal, so that the parochialist appeal is being indulged by every channel.
Let us take these two facts: (a) Ramayana and Mahabharata are being sought to be made available today for global unity through understanding the eternal values for which India stood, nay, always stand. (b) For centuries, or millennia perhaps, when the regional languages were still in their growth process, the right-thinking scholars thought that it was not at all important for any regional language of India to try to grow without borrowing and assimilatting the grammatical concepts and words and word-combinations from Sanskrit, most of the time without changing them in the process. Given (a) and (b), it is absolutely important to foster and promote the study of Sanskrit in all regions of India. This will, in the process, go to greatly tone down linguistic fanaticism which is rampant in the country, and manifests itself in the demand, for example, for reservation of jobs even at a higher skilled level for “”sons of the soil”".
The main role of each of th regional languages was as an easily accessible medium from the viewpoint of the masses. Hence it should not be forgotten at least by the scholars, and the poets [Kavi-s in all languages of India, except in Urdu where the word Shair is used for Kavita] of the respecive languages, that Sanskrit is the real link language of India in the sense that like Latin (mostly) and Greek (less often) for the European languages, Sanskrit was the root language for the Indian languages, and mind you, unlike Latin/Greek, Sanskrit words are not mutilated when taken over into the local languages (99% of the times, the 1%mutilation being usually in the nature of adaptation or slight change).
As far as Tamil is concerned, until recently (that is till around the 1940s), it was a matter of respectability and pride for a Tamil pandithar (or Pulavar) (with an extensive and deep grounding in Tamil wors, ancient, medieval and contemporary) also to be a Sanskrit pandit (only with comparatively less mastery of it), so that there was little scope for the Pulavar to indulge in the kind of hatred and fanaticism indulged in by many Tamil Pulavars in these times, of course due to their total ignorance of what is original Sanskrit, and what is pure Tamil. I am reminded of an incdnet here, which I briefly mention, for illustration of the fanaticism: One Tamil Pulavar, who wanted into not only arguments, but also perverse argumentation (Vitandaa Vaada), began with the premise that the great TIRUKKURAL (of Tiruvalluvar) did not contain even a single Sanskrit word, and hence it was a ‘totally Tamil’ work. [Note, the Pulavar (he was only a semi-scholar of Tamil, by contrast, based on the criteria until the 1940s). I immediately told him that languages need be “”pure”" which, in effect, would mean an inability of them to look at certain subtleties and beauties which would be possible only through a two-way exchange (or at least a one-way reception), and purity ranks far less than elegance and beauty which is sometimes sacrificed if a language artificially tries to resurrect from its archaic vocaulary with dead words. I said to him “”You Pulavars love to call Sanskrit a dead language meaning it is currently not spoken by millions today. But see, even the very first Kural (short, sloka-like stanza) of TIRUKKURAL, has AKARA, AADI, BHAGAVAN, ULAGU (Loka in Sanskrit corrupted). He would not accept this statement at all, and said all the words are Tamil. I said, yes, they have been assimilated from Sanskrit. And Tiruvalluvar, to be sure, was not a fanatic in love with archaic words nor would hesitate to use Sanskrit, in modified form wherever applicable, if elegance and beauty continue to be a finer aspect of poetry, especially to convey wisdom in pithy form. It was almost impossible for me to argue with this man since he was not a semi Pandita, but just a fanatic. The fanatic sgments of Tamil scholarship have made it a meaningless mission of their work to substitute indiscriminately with artificially coined and archaic Tamil terms for everyday use. For example, most of the Tamil ‘TV channels, dominated by fanatics, would no longer use Bhukampam but only Nila adirchi, for Earthquake. The truth is that Bhukampam is both scholarly and layman-friendly, since the commoner uses only Bhukampatam, not earthquake, nor Nila adirchi. Pragmatism would require that such artificiality is after all not necessary, and it smacks of senseless hatred of a language. Also, the Pulavars (like the one who ignorantly maintained Aadi, Bhagavan, Akara, Loka (Ulagu) as “”pure”" Tamil words) are ignorant of the fact that very many words that they assume to be pure Tamil are not so! For example, one Suryanarayana Sastri, out of his zeal for “”pure”" Tamil us, changed his own name as “”Paridhi-maal-kalaijnar”". The zealot circles of Tamil purity hail this as an instnce of the unique viability, without dependence on Sanskrit, for its thriving. But, hey, Paridhi is very much a Sanskrit word, another term meaning the sun. Again, Sastri has been substituted by Kalaijnar. Who on earth can convince a half-ignorant Tamil Pandita that it is just the Sanskrit word, Kalaa-jna. Now, I like the word ‘Kalaijnar’ (or Kalaignar) and treat as a Tamil word, very much (even when it is used as an epithet for Karunanidhi, a great zealot of Tamil also displaying tremendous hatred for Sanskit, Brahmins, Hindus, Aryan ‘race’ (as an ‘enemy’ and ‘conquror’ of Dravidian ‘rce’! (He is anti- many, many things, only he should come out more often for what he is pro- , for. He of course developed deep rooted hatred when he saw some Tanjorean mirazdars calling Naadasvara Vidwans “”Day, Ada, Vaadaa”" etc., the truth being that the former never put hatred in calling them so, but they likely used it with a ‘brotherly’ liberty, and since then, Karunanidhi thought it wise to align himself with the rabid anti-Vedic, anti-religion, anti-God, anti-North, anti-Brahmin personality in EV Ramaswami. See how much Tamilnadu’s politics, Tamil literatue and religion have been so uniformly corrupted due to linguistic an false racialistic notions. Of course, the other, moderate camp prefers to keep quiet due to the tremendous power of the ‘Dravidian’ politicians, and their immense mesmerising skills at mass hypnotism which perpetuates the loot of Tamilians by politicians, with a few crumbs only being made available to the commoners. I pity the vast masses who are so sorely divided among many ‘Dravidian’ parties with modiffying adjects in their names.)
In this respect, I hold that the other languages of India are not suffering from the fanaticism of zealots, and that is a good thing since the fundamental unity of India is strongly deep-rooted and manifest in every Indian language including in Tamil, though due to the perverse zeal of some section of Tamil scholars, thiis has been adversely impacted in the case of Tamil. Kavi Subrahmanya Bharati, “”Vaazhiya Senthamizh Vaazhga Natramizhar Vaazhiya Bhaarata Mani Thirunaadu … VANDE MAATARAM, VANDE MAATARAM, VANDE MAATARAM.
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Hi Gurudev
Yes lot of work have to be undertaken to discover Tholkappiyam as it is done for Vedas.
Tholkappiyam book what i have is hard copy. I can make it available to you (and for everyone) as soft copy, but it require some time as iam out of station for few months.
Thank you for offering me Kannada literature.But i dont know to read Kannada.
As far as movies and cinema music is considered,yes, i know lot of people in KA like Tamil stuff. But these movies and cinema music are modern stuff which should never be compared with religion,language,culture as these are brought down generation after genration by our ancestors.
So,comparing Kannadigas’ opinion about Tamil movies,music and my opinion about Kannada and Tamil literature is not apt.
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Hi Sunitha
Good. Now thats interesting information about Tholkappiyam. In that case I think just like there is a search for the complete set of sanskrit vedas, there should also be a search for the remaining parts of Tholkappiyam. Yes, I knew about the sangam literature. But I dont think that we need this aryan dravidian divide. For the simple reason that Aryan has never been a race, and the so called other dravidian languages like Kannada and Telugu atleast have their roots in Sanskrit.
It would be great if you could provide any information about Tholkappiyam if you have. Also about any other books or references, so that we all know more about Tamil than we think we know.
But again, I like the modern kannada literature more than modern literature of any other languages I have read
If you are interested and know to read kannada I can provide some good references. These are personal preferences.
I have also said that modern Tamil music is the best, and no other language music can even come near to it, nobody can beat Ilayaraja. But then that doesnt mean that some kannadiga should come saying ‘what do you know about kannada music? How can you say Tamil music is better than Kannada’. No kannadiga has asked me that
Please provide more info about ancient tamil works that you know or have any references to. I would really love to read them. Yes, Tamil definitely deserves a classical language status.
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Hi Urisi,
Reg Water:
Yes, during scarcity it is the general tendency to look after themselves. But it is not the case always. Even if they have water, it’s the same case. Karnataka people are always more hatred towards Tamilians. I am very much surprised, why is this so?. Just the cauvery issue? No, there is something more.
Tamils live in Bangalore for more than 20 years. All these 20 years Blore was not affected. Blore got affected only after IT came. Any city, for that matter, faces challenges when it grows. Why to blame Tamils for anything and everything?
By the way, I am one among a very very few Tamils to sit and converser like this. Remaining are least bothered about what others say, which is really sick.
I don’t want them to fight, but speak up to the point.
Reg Tamilians:
Yes, we don’t encourage Hindi that much. But, as of me, speaking Hindi, doesn’t show any patriotism.
India being a vast and diversified country should have more than 1 language as its national language.
For several decades,TN not speaking Hindi, does not have faced any set backs. Instead, it has grown as a 3rd or 4th developed state in the country. There is nothing with language.Though we don’t speak Hindi, we are never aliens to those who come to TN. We have very good hospitality. Please don’t feel iam boasting about my state.
South India never tried to impose its culture and language on the north. North Indians are not our rulers. They are one of us. You are one of us. We are one country. We have to respect each other’s religions, languages and culture. I want to state that I do not consider people from any state in India to be superior or inferior to another state. People from each state have their good points.
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Hi Gurudev,
I have not told anywhere in my postings that Kannada Lang doesn’t have good literature. I am not bringing Tamil in between any of the Indian languages (I am not taking into consideration Sanskrit), because Tamil literature is even more vast and rich.
My point is not against your knowledge about Kannada literature or your respect for Kannada literature, but your views on Tamil literature.
These are your points that made me to start this conversation
1. “Kannada literature is better than Tamil or other Lang” – So, I asked “what do you know about Tamil literature which made you to compare it with Kannada”. What I meant by saying “Tamil is NOT all about vivek comedies and movies” is that Tamil has very rich and vast literatures, which you should study well and then comment on it. My point is mere knowledge of a language plays little role in true understanding of its great works. I never said you didn’t respect Tamil or Telugu or any other Lang. Also, comparing 2 movies is entirely different from comparing languages. You see languages are brought down by our ancestors so long back that our own opinion on it has to be properly justified. You liking movie A and myself liking movie B is up to us.
If you like Kannada more than Tamil it is your liking, for which I never expressed disrespect (each individual has a different taste and they have the freedom to like or practice any religion or Lang). But you have clearly made a point that “Kannada literature is better than Tamil or any other language”. That triggered the conversation.
I am not here to fight with you. I would like to substantiate my views on Tamil and that I am not telling this just because I am a Tamilian.
2. You have clearly stated that “Sanskrit is the root of all Indian languages Tamil, Telugu, Kannada, Bengali, Hindi etc”.
This is the major trigger for me to converse with you and not the literature aspect. Tamil, Sanskrit, Latin, Greek, Arabic are few of the world’s classical language (among this Tamil and Sanskrit are the only 2 Indian languages).
Few of the criteria for a classical language I would like to list here are
“it should be an independent tradition that arose on its own NOT as an offshoot of another tradition, and it must have a large and extremely rich body of ancient literature”
The first and second Tamil sangam literature are lost in Tsunami called “KadalKol” in Tamil (Tsunami existed from our ancient times) and what we have got is just third sangam literature, among which Tholkappiyam is the antique one (but we have discovered only 1/10 th of Tholkappiyam).
I strongly reiterate that Tamil ran IN PARALLEL with Sanskrit and DOES NOT has its root in Sanskrit.
“Tamil constitutes the only literary tradition indigenous to India that is not derived from Sanskrit. I have written extensively on the influence of a Southern tradition on the Sanskrit poetic tradition. But equally important, the great sacred works of Tamil Hinduism, beginning with the Sangam Anthologies, have under girded the development of modern Hinduism. Their ideas were taken into the Bhagavata Purana and other texts (in Telugu and Kannada as well as Sanskrit), whence they spread all over India. As Sanskrit is the most conservative and least changed of the Indo-Aryan languages, Tamil is the most conservative of the Dravidian languages, the touchstone those linguists must consult to understand the nature and development of Dravidian. It arose as an entirely independent tradition, with almost no influence from Sanskrit or other languages; and its ancient literature is indescribably vast and rich”
As told by George L. Hart, University of California, Berkeley.
Please don’t think this is the only proof I have to talk about Tamil. If you are interested, I can provide you some great books, which substantiate the fact.
I have great reverence for Sanskrit and Tamil. But I am not saying all other languages are not good. Though all the other Indian languages came from Sanskrit, they have good literature. I am not against it. I am not offensive to any language.
But the fact of Dravidians very well existed. People of southern part of India are referred to as Dravidians. All the people of India had their roots only in our ancient India (not in some European country as proposed by AIT).
When people in northern part of India were using Sanskrit, at the same time people of southern India (called Dravidians) were using Tamil.
If you are interested,I am ready to exchange many more authentic explorations on the above facts.
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Have the AIT’ians disproved the possibility of revese migration, that is Aryans emigrating from India into the rest of Asia, Europe, etc. ANY THEORY MUST BE PROVED IN ITS AFFIRMATIVE AND DISPROVED IN THE NEGATIVE, and this is especially important in history. Historians, unlike mathematicians, do not generally bother about this methodology of authenticating knowledge, since usually some guy, with a lot of dare, (pseudo)scholarly aura, push, and a gift of the pen gets away with his “”theories”" which can continue to cause unwanted Tsunamis for civilizations. But let us note that in the case of the AIT, Prof Max Mueller who suggested this, could well have been a scholar lacking in courage and conviction. He, for instance, wrote in a letter to his wife something to the effect that he had exposed the ancient Sanskrit scriptures and literature to the Indians themselves, and the rest of the world, so that their silly notions couched in myths, gods and primitive statements would bare open the real India which, by implication, would appear third-class, downgrade before the great achievements of the West in all spheres! He hoped the Indians would be able to come out of the clutches of primitivity only by conversion to Christianity!! But he, on another front, sort of contradicted himself saying that his proposed AIT was just a preliminary feeling, or something, with no finality or authentication. On yet another front, he sort of prevaricated, saying that Sanskrit is definitely more refined, perfect, much more scientific, and whatnot, with a supreme beauty beyond any human conception as compared to the languages of Europe, mainly Latin and Greek, with which alone scholars before him. This man had sought the help of highly conservative Sanskrit scholars [Pandit(a)s] of India – who normally looked at monkey-skinned Westerners as Mlecchaa’s, or highly polluted people who knew only about body, the senses and animal enjoyments like sex and satisfying of hunger and sex, and the like, and far less about the spirit. These conservative Samskrta Panditas were extremely reluctant, if not they did no refuse, to look at this guy for initiating him into the divine realm of Sanskritic literature, grammar, and great works of spiritualiy and science in a different paradigm (superior to that of the West’s). They would consider him unworthy of being given Sanskrit knowledge, since knowledge had to be for the pursuit of wisdom and imparting of the same to the rest of humanity, for which certain absolutely strict criteria had to be met by the aspirants, and again, the methodology for acquiring scholarship in Sanskrt was far different, and far divinely superior – to that to which the West had been used. But they chose to refer him to go to some second or third rate scholars. In particular the great scholars pointed out to Mueller, that not all are born to become scholars of Sanskrit, though they were welcome to be learners/students, and scholarship would be exacting with great reverence on the part of mere learners aspiring to become scholar, to the methods of how sounds are formed, how they are directly woven with the meaning they conveyed, how letters are to be combined o form words, etc. (Sabda, Alankara, Vyakarana, Siksha, and other great topics, this is no place to delve on them). … Now, let us look at ourselves today! We need authentication of our heritage, civilization, culure, and other spects of our Indianness and universality of our mission, at the hands of scholars, some of them, very pompous, all knowing, if not absolutely arrogant, considering themselves superior specimens coming from other worlds, of Harvard, Stanford, Cambridge, etc. – what a pity, the likes of Prof. Michael Witzel !! I am sorry if any Western scholar feels offended, but I do know that there is such a great surge of interest among Westerners of all hues, simple and scholarly, humble and Brihaspati-like, in the universaliy and eternality of Hindu/ Aryan/ Brahminical/ Vedic message for all mankind. Today’s average Indian’s irresistible veneration of the West, just because of the easily accessible kind of knowlege of science and technology from Western sources, there is also a blind assumpti0n that they are supreme authorities in every sphere. Notwithstanding all this, it is high time every Indian sees the point of keeping at least a margin in our daily memorandum for reflection and introspection about ourselves and the truth about our Rishis and their ways to penetrate the realiy of our existence – or our selves, and of the universe in is limitless expanses – ‘ ARSHAYA GNANA’. Without a legitimate pride in our true heriage, par excellence, rooted in perfect understanding, India cannot grow, but has to plod wearily with the baggage of slavish mentality cultivated through 200 years of British colonialism. Let us stop squabblles about Dravidian, Aryan, and other silly nonsense perpetrated by some of our Western brethren.
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Dear Sunitha
You have provided good points to ponder.
Happend to find very interesting topic on Rsi Agastya w.r.t aryan invasion theory.
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North-South Divide
Indologists have concluded that the original inhabitants of the Indus Valley
civilization were of Dravidian descent. This poses another interesting question. If
the Aryans had invaded and forced the Dravidians down to the South, why is there no
Aryan/Dravidian divide in the respective religious literatures and historical
traditions? Prior to the British, the North and South lived in peace and there was a
continuous cultural exchange between the two. Sanskrit was the common language
between the two regions for centuries. Great acaryas such as Sankara, Ramanuja,
Madhva, Vallabha, and Nimbarka were all from South, yet they are all respected in
North India. Prior to them, there were great sages from the South such as Bodhayana
and Apastamba. Agastya Rsi is placed in high regard in South India as it is said
that he brought the Tamil language from Mount Kailasa to the South. Yet he is from
the North! Are we to understand that the South was uninhabited before the Aryan
Invasion? If not, who were the original inhabitants of South India, who accepted
these newcomers from the North without any struggle or hostility?
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More over it would be easy to conclude which is the root language for all once we
find the language of first work of human race ie., Rig Veda. Otherwise We can also
say a language existed in parallel with another one if that language was used as
media in any work dated during same time of Rig Veda (if it weren’t to be the first
work).
Reg: Tamilian
It is general opinion through out India about tamilians. Not just Karnataka.
Really wonder how come there is such hormony btwn Telugu and Kannada native speaker
even though they have long standing dispute like Krishna river sharing (spurring up
occasionally). Again Maharastrian too have Belagau dispute with Karnataka. Karvar
is the dividing aspect bwn Karnataka and Kerala. One observation about Andrites,
that as long as they are respected they don’t mind others tamtrums. Otherwise they
do demand respect if not treated well.
When a southindian lands in North indian states, he is more recognised as Tamilian
than any other s.i. origin. He must educate localites that there are 3 more states
in south.
Thanks to globalization, changing scenario and needs, there are changes in
pro-tamilians too in terms of tolerance. Even Bengalis are sometimes looked in
different way. Initially if anyone goes to WB say to Kolkata, pple hardly speak in
Hindi even if they know hindi. same case in Germany too. But things are changing.
It takes times for rest of the world to change long lasting impression about such
ppl. Only persistent effort and patience is required to prove a community that they
really are.
Reg: Water
It is general tendency to look after themselves first during scarcity rather than
providing more to others. One may have to look in other angle what if Kaveri were
to flow from TN to Karnataka? Would TN have agreed to share water (in reality)?
Krishna is dispute bwn AP and KN. (occasionally).
Brahmaputra is international matter- among three nations. Mutual understanding is
required to solve this matter rather than making political issue.
(Drafted before Gurudev’s comments. Most of points are already answered in his reply).
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Hi Sunitha
Nice to know that you are already aware about the non-existence of AIT
Now look at one of my earlier comments where I have said “”I have a great respect for tamil because it is the oldest surviving language in India after Sanskrit”". So what does it mean? I have a great respect for Tamil and I acknowledge its ancient heritage. Right?
I respect your views of NOT accepting my words. But at the same time I also expect you to respect my views. You said “”If you dont know , it is better NOT to talk about that.”" Well, I have read Tamil. Have you read Kannada literary works? Without reading them how can you say anything about kannada literature or compare it?
Nor did I say that “”I am the final authority on this subject”". If I have given any wrong information or if you feel I need to know something more, then please tell me about that, instead of saying DONT TALK.
Now coming to what I said “”But in terms of literature Kannada is the best language in India”".
Look at the context that follows what I said. I was talking about the Jnanpeeth awards and about MODERN literature there, NOT about ancient literature. It is well known fact that Kannada has the highest number of Jnanpeeth awards in India today for modern literature. And I have also read all this kannada literary works too. So I wrote what I felt. Is that wrong? I didnt say Tamil literature is bad. Did I? I only said Kannada literature is the best compared to other languages.
Let me give you an example. Suppose there are two movies that we watch. I like movie A and I will say that its better than movie B. You feel otherwise and say that movie B is the best (probably without even watching movie A). So? your views and my views about what makes a good movie might be different. So should we start fighting on that?
I respect your views that Tamil literature is the best. Please respect my views on the kannada literature.
I dont understand why are you taking this offensively! I havent said anything AGAINST tamil language, nor will I ever say. As I said earlier, I simply love Ilayaraja music, Vivek Comedy, Shankar movies etc. But then again that doesnt mean that I am saying “”Tamil is all about vivek comedies and movies”". Does it?
Before we discuss anything about the origins of Tamil and Sanskrit, I want to make sure that we dont end up in an ego clash using arrogant and unparliamentary language, because I really dont like to block comments of any readers in my blog.
If you still feel that we can talk more and exchange views, you are welcome, else I will continue to respect your views
Tamil, Hindi, Kannada, Sanskrit, Telugu are all Indian languages, and that matters more than anything else to me.
By the way my mother tongue is NOT Kannada
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You are such a coward to delete all my postings.
If you have some culture, publish all my postings and let all people know the truth.
So, its very well clear now that you are such an unprofessional,biased and bigot to publish only postings that support your point
If you are a human, try to give proper evidence that Kannada is a good language. By deleting my posting, you have confirmed that Kannada and Kannadigas are cultureless idiots.
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Hi Gurudev,
Tamil came from the mouth of Lord Subramanya. And that is the reason he is referred to “”Tamil God”". Why should GOD himself create a language and teach that to Sage Agasthiyar, instead he could have allowed it to sprung from Sanskrit as all other Indian Languages and European Languages.
I verily agree that Sanskrit came long back Tamil came.
But Tamil is a friend of Sanskrit. Both of them lived parallely and both have their indigenous characters independent of each other. Whereas all other Indian languages are children of Sanskrit. This doesn’t stop them from producing liteartures.
Later Tamil adopted some words from Sanskrit. And this is the reason, people like you without properly studying Tamil, think that it came from Sanskrit.
Tamil movies what is present these days, is not Tamil at all. They kill it.
Tamil literature is vast. I come from a Tamil scholar family (but iam not one). I can give you lots of books and sources where you can know about Tamil well.
Tamilians these days know nothing about Tamil and they believe whatever people like you tell.
First of all, you tell me how many languages in India has got the classical status and what are the criteria for a language to be declared classical?
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Hi Gurudev,
What i meant above is comparing Panini’s and Tholkkapiyar’s work there were absolutely NO relevance between Tamil and Sanskrit.
Tamil RAN IN PARALLEL with Sanskrit and not an offshoot of Sanskrit as told by you.
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Hi Gurudev,
You have talked as though only Kannada has greatest literatures and Tamil is nothing infront of Kannada.
How many Tamil literatures have you read. Tirukkural and Bhardhiyar’s books and poems are not literature.
Before you comment on anything you should have conducted a deep study and vast analysis (hope you know this well by yourself).
Why do you want to give some wrong information to people through your blogs.
And you have also said that Tamilians wont talk Kannada even though they live in Karnataka for a long time. How far is this true?.I lived in Blore for so many years and i can very well talk in Kannada. Iam not hatred towards Kannadigas.
But y do you want to tell bad about Tamilians??. Are the North Indians in Bangalore talking in Kannada??. But I know lots and lots of Tamilians talking in Kannada in Blore.
If you want to blame, then you should have mentioned in general, not particularly Tamilians. If you see, its really the North Indians who spoiled Blore by paying more money for anything and everything.
You say all are Indians but you target only Tamilians. My Q is why is it so?. What problems we Tamilians created for you in Blore?. Are we not living just like other state people live in Chennai or any part of TN. Chennai has vast number of Telugu people and we never talk about them like this.
And again cauvery issue is just a matter of water. Politicians are making it dirty. Say, iam your neighbour, feeling very thirsty and asking for a glass of water, wont you give me???
Dont develop hatred against Tamilians.
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And Gurudev, what they have excavated in Tholkappiyam now is just a meagre. Lots of remaining portions of Tholkappiyam are yet to be discovered.
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Hi Dev,
Telugu is NOT a offshoot of Kannada. Please read something about your own language before actually making some wrong comments.
Telugu has majority of its roots ONLY in Sanskrit and the remaining are indegenous to it. The scirpt of Kannada and Telugu are more similar but you should not misinterpret that Telugu is an offshoot of Kannada.
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Hi Pandian,
Iam very sad that most of the Tamilians are like you without even knowing a bit of knowledge about Tamil.
We are not against Hindi or Kannada or telugu or any lang for that matter.
But our mother tongue being as ancient as Sanskirt, we Tamilians dont know anything about that.
Know something Pandian, no one till date are able to trace back the origin of Tamil. Tamil is a divine language as Sanskirt is.
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Hi Gurudev,
Iam not here to discuss the AIT. I very well know even before reading your bolg that there is nothing called AIT.
Iam a Tamilian and proud to be so. I can NOT accept your words “”Tamil language dates to around 200-300 BCE.So what were the tamil speaking people of today speaking before 300 BCE?”".
Even great scholars cant trace back the origin of Tamil language. How come you are abe to do?. If you dont know , it is better NOT to talk about that.
Tamil is NOT just about vivek comedies and movies.
You talk as though only Kannada has rich and vast literary works.
Your words “”But in terms of literature Kannada is the best language in India after Sanskrit, neither Hindi nor Tamil can beat it,
it has such wonderful literary content,
I am simply amazed, and sometimes think whether I am not getting biased because I am a kannadiga”" has really WOUNDED me like anything.
What do you know about Tamil?. Do you think Tamil is all about only Tirukkural and Bharathiyar. These were the people who came later. For your information,TIRUKKURAL is NOT the ancient work in Tamil.
Oldest surviving literature in Tamil is Tholkappiyam by Tholkappiyar which defines the rules and syntax of Tamil grammar. Try to read Panini’s Ashtadhyayi and Tholkappiyar’s Tholkappiyam. There were absolutely relevance between Tamil and Sanskrit. Tamil came from the mouth of Lord Murugan (Lord Subramanys) who taught it to Sage Agasthiyar who in turn bought Tamil to Bharatam.
And you have told “”Sanskrit is the root of all Indo-european languages.”" This shows your total lack of knowledge about Tamil language. Just watching movies and reading Tirukkural doesn’t mean you know about Tamil.
There were greatest Tamil scholars who had done extensive to most extensive research about Tamil language and could not trace back the origin of Tamil.
If you are interested, please go through books written by P.S. Subramanys Shastri “”History of comparative literature”" and also.
“”Comparative grammar of the Tamil language”"
P. S. Subrahmanya Sastri (these are few among innumerable books written by great Tamil scholars)
And finally Tamil has been given the status of classical language. Do you know the eligibility of a classical language.There are many eligibilties among which one is
“”A classical language should not have its roots in any other language”".
I have due respect for Sanskrit. I totally agree that Sanskrit is a divine language. Similarly Tamil is one which run in parallel with Sanskrit and DID NOT have its roots in Sanskrit. Iam not saying this just because Iam a Tamilian.
Before you pass a statement, you should read well and then should do it.
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Hi Gurdev,
Want to have a authentic conversation with you.
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