The Ethics of Religious Conversions

In a Debate on The Ethics of Religious Conversions with the Archbishop of Hyderabad, below is a amazingly beautiful speech by eminent Indologist David Frawley .

Date: February 9, 1999
Venue: Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan, Hyderabad.

I completely subscribe to the views in this speech. Also, I do not believe that all religions are one and the same. Hindus are only fooling themselves by saying that all religions are equal and same. No other religions (be it Christianity or Islam) consider this to be the truth, and instead they say that their religions are the only truth and the only paths. So how can Hindus say that Christianity or Islam is same as Hinduism when these other religions themselves are denying it?

So all religions are NOT equal. Only those religions which say that all religions are equal are equal. Hinduism has always been saying that all religions are one and the same and God does not favor you depending on whether you are a Hindu or not, but God treats all life forms including humans equally.

Christianity and Islam dont believe so, and they say that non-christians and non-muslims do not go to heaven, do not get salvation, etc! THIS is the root cause for all clashes, violence, hatred, etc on this planet today. Almost every geo-political problem on the planet (except for those related to communism/nationalism) is because of such thoughts by these religions. If these religions say that all religions are same then, what is the need for missionaries, conversions, for the concept of kafirs/non-believers, etc?

I was so spell bound by the clarity of the truth, simplicity of the presented facts and the message to humanity in the speech below made by Dr David Frawley, that for the first time in this blog I am presenting a speech by somebody else! Read on..

David Frawley

Below is the Speech by Dr. David Frawley

I was raised as a Catholic and went to Catholic school. My uncle was, and still is, a missionary. We were told that he was going to South America to save the souls of the Native Americans, people we were told were non-Christian and without conversion would suffer eternal damnation. This is the background that I came from.

Today, throughout the world, and in the United States, with very little exception, there is no Sarvadharma Samabhava taught in religion. It is something I never encountered in my Christian education in the West.

We were taught that Hinduism was a religion of idolatry; it was a religion of polytheism and superstition and that there was no place for Hindus in heaven. Even a great Hindu like Mahatma Gandhi might be revered on a certain level, but he was not given the type of religious credit that he would have been given had he been a Christian.

These attitudes still exist throughout the world and India does not exist in isolation. And Hindus in India are, and India as a whole is, still being targeted for conversion. Why is this so? If all the religions teach the same thing, why is it that certain religions are seeking to convert the members of other religions to their beliefs?

Hinduism is a pluralistic tradition. It teaches that there are many paths, many scriptures, many sages, many ways to come to the Divine to gain self-realization and it should be free for the individual to find and follow whatever way he or she thinks or feels works best.

But not all religions are pluralistic. In fact, most religions are exclusive in their mentality and in their beliefs. The two largest religions in the world, with a few notable exceptions, teach that theirs is the only true faith. The average Christian throughout the world has been taught to believe that only Christians gain salvation. The idea has been projected as an eternal heaven for the Christians and an eternal hell for the non-Christians, particularly for idol-worshipping Hindus. And so far, we do not have major Christian leaders in the world contradicting that statement.

To date, there is no major Christian leader, or Moslem leader, in the world, who is saying that Hinduism is as good as Christianity or Islam. I do not know of any Christian leaders in the West who would say that a Rama or a Krishna is equal to a Jesus. I do not know of any of them who would honor a Ramana Maharshi, a Sri Aurobindo or a Mahatma Gandhi as a God-realized or self-realized sage. I realize there may be some exceptions to this, in
the Indian context. But this is not the case with, and it is also not the official policy of the Vatican. It is not the policy of the Pope at all!

I want to read a statement, from The Coming of the Third Millennium, which was issued very recently by the Pope, in relation to the situation in Asia:

The Asia Synod will deal with the challenge for evangelization posed by the encounter with ancient religions such as Buddhism and Hinduism. While expressing esteem for the elements of truth in these religions, the Church must make it clear that Christ is the one mediator between God and man and the sole Redeemer of humanity.

This is a direct quote. Now, what is it saying about religious tolerance? Christ is the only way. The pope is saying that we accept what is true in these religions, but we do not accept them if they do not follow Jesus as the only way. We still have to convert them. That is the message. This is not a message of tolerance and live and let live. It is not a message of let Hindus have their way and we have our and both are good. It is not a statement that Buddha or Krishna is equal to Jesus.

It is a statement of exclusivism and my contention is that such exclusivism must breed intolerance. If I think that mine is the only way, how can I be really tolerant and accepting of you, if you follow another way? And such intolerance is going to end up causing conflict, division, disharmony and poor communication.

It is going to divide communities and cause problems. So, please bear in mind that, in the Indian context, as Hindus, you have to deal with these religions as the majority of the people in the world are practicing and believing in them, and this conversion process is continuing.

I also think that we should have a free, open, friendly dialogue and discussion on all religious matters, both in terms of social interaction and relative to doctrinal matters. There should be complete freedom of discussion, freedom of criticism and freedom of debate just as we have in science.

What generally happens in the field of conversion is that certain groups are targeted for conversion activity. I would like to discriminate between two different things. One is the change of religion, which people may opt for, based upon open and friendly discussion, debate, dialogue and studies. Nothing is wrong with that. But I would discriminate that from what I would call the global missionary business.

The global missionary business is one of the largest, perhaps even the largest business in the world. Not only the Catholic Church, but also various Protestant organizations have set aside billions of dollars to convert non-Christians to Christianity. They have trained thousands of workers, have formed various plans of evangelization and conversion and have targeted certain communities for that particular purpose.

This multi-national conversion business is like any multi-national economic business. It is not something that is simply fair and open. It is not simply a dialogue or a discussion.

So what we see with this missionary business is a definite strategy for one religion to convert the members of other religions. This conversion business is not about religious freedom. It is about one religion triumphing over all the other religions. It is about making all the members of humanity follow one religion, giving up and, generally, denigrating the religion they had previously been following.

Why is this conversion business so big in India?

Because India is the largest non-Christian country in the world where missionaries have the freedom to act and to propagate. Islamic countries – Pakistan, Bangladesh – do not allow this missionary activity at all. In Saudi Arabia, you cannot even bring a Bible or a picture of Jesus into the country. China, also, does not allow such wide-scale missionary conversion activities.

So India, because of its very openness to and tolerance of these missionaries, has become the target. You know from recent newspapers that one missionary was killed in India, which is unfortunate. But in that same week, fifty Christians were massacred in Indonesia by the Moslems there. The religious violence is going on all over the world and Christians are not always the victims.

In India, for centuries, Hindus have been routinely killed for their religion. Even recently in Kashmir, a number of Hindus were massacred, but you will notice that, in the Western media, the death of Hindus for their religion will never count and will never constitute a story. However, if one missionary – one white man – is killed in India, then these Western countries will retaliate with sanctions, criticize, and take some moral high ground.

Missionary activity has a bloody history of genocide on every continent of the world. I am not going to go into all the details here. The Inquisition was in operation in Goa in India. The British used their influence, though less overtly, to force conversions, and certainly the missionaries had an advantage under colonial rule all over the world. In a number of countries, colonial interests used force and persuasion to bring about conversion.

We are told today that we should forget all about that, even though it has only been a generation or two since the colonial era. I say that we cannot forget so easily because the very religious groups that performed these atrocious acts have not yet apologized. If they recognize that this missionary aggression and violence that was done before 1947; that was done in the 19th century; that was done in Goa; that was done in the Americas was wrong, then why don’t we get an apology for it?

You will notice that the Christians in America have made some apologies for what they did to the Native Americans. We have yet to see any apology relative to Hindus. If the missionaries want us to believe that they have changed their ways and are now purely non-violent and charitable, then why do they not at least apologize for what they did in the
past?

And why should there be conversions at all? What is the motivation behind most seeking of conversions that is coming out of the Christian background? It is their belief that Christianity is the only true religion, Christ is the only saviour of humanity, Christians gain salvation or heaven and non-Christians gain damnation or hell. That is not policy of harmony and tolerance but a blueprint for disharmony and conflict.

What ultimately happens when someone who has that attitude comes into a community and converts people? People are taught to reject their ancestors and their traditions. Families are broken up. Division and conflict almost inevitably occur wherever this missionary business goes on. There are actually many forms of Christianity and several different kinds of Christian missionary activity going on.

And there are Christian groups that are not missionary at all, for example, the old Greek Orthodox and the Syrian Christians, but which represent old and tolerant traditions. Then there is the Catholic tradition which is promoting its missionary activity all over the world but which is doing it in a more subtle way today. They are no longer using the force that they once used in the colonial era, but they are still aiming at global conversion. There are also the old Protestants, the Anglicans and the Lutherans, who are still promoting various types of missionary activity. That has gotten reduced to some degree as well.

However, there is a new evangelical force in the world today, particularly that coming out of the United States. What are the fundamentalist Christian groups of America? The World Vision, the Christian coalition, groups like Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormons, Baptists and so on.

They are very actively asking for donations in America in order to convert Hindus in India. We see this routinely in the various television channels that they have. Pat Robertson, one of their main leaders, has said that Hinduism is a demonic religion.

They show Hindu gods with animal heads and say, Oh! Look at how primitive these people are. They look at the political and social problems of India and say; These are all owing to Hinduism. Please donate money to our cause so we can go to India and convert these people from this horrible religion that they have.

These same evangelical missionaries are going all over the world and also targeting Catholics. recently, in Brazil, the Pope called these evangelical missionaries wolves because of what they were doing to, what he termed, his flock of Christians, which was converting them to their form of Christianity.

So this missionary threat continues and some missionaries are going back to the old hell-fire, damnation, condemnation of Hinduism such as the Catholics used to do in the Middle Ages and in the colonial era. So do not believe that there is religious harmony all over the world and that the other religions respect Hinduism and are willing to live together quietly with Hindus.

In fact, in textbooks in America, it is taught that Hinduism is not a religion because Hinduism does not have only one God, one book and is not a missionary religion seeking to convert or conquer the world. So it is this missionary business which needs to be questioned and not simply conversion. And do not be naive about it!

There is a consistent use of social upliftment and charity to promote conversion. While social upliftment and charity are very good things, they should be separated from religious conversion. If you want to raise up a country and help them economically, please do so, but do not bring religion into it. When you put the picture of Jesus everywhere obviously religion and conversion are part of your motivation.

You will note that no country in the world has been raised up economically by religious conversion. What has made Japan a great country economically and what made the United States a great country economically are economic means, not a change of religion. Christian countries include some of the poorest countries in the world. The Philippines is the most Catholic and the oldest Christian country in Asia. It remains one of the poorest countries in Asia and has one of the greatest gaps between the rich and the poor.

The most devout Catholics in the world are in Central and South America. They are certainly not found in North America and in Europe, where Christians are more nominal than strong believers. Central and South America also have tremendous social inequality and a tremendous gap between the rich and the poor. But the Catholics there are not telling the poor people that they should convert to another religion in order to raise themselves economically.

So this whole attack on Hindu society by stating that we will raise the poor on religious grounds is based upon the motivation of conversion. Then there is the whole issue of hospitals, orphanages and schools. It is all very wonderful to selflessly help other people. But why do you have to put a religious form there? As long as the picture of Jesus is there, particularly when you have a two thousand year history of aggressive conversion activities, how can you expect people to believe that there is no seeking of conversion? That it is purely selfless service and love of God?

If we love God, if we love our fellow human beings, we will love them regardless of what their religious belief is. We will love their religion as well. We will honor and respect their religion whether they are aboriginal people, Hindus, Buddhists, Zoroastrians, Moslems or Christians. We will not see any need to convert them. In fact, we should not even be conscious of their religion at all. True love of God does not seek converts. It is not based upon names, forms or identity. It is based upon recognizing the Divine presence in all.

One of the great swamis of India, Swami Rama Tirtha, when he came to America, was asked about religion. He said, You do not belong to any religion. All religions belong to you. The human being is not a property of any Church. You are not some thing which is owned by anyone or anything. The soul does not need to be saved. It is the eternal and immortal part of our nature. We need only understand the Divine within us.

You cannot change the nature of any human being. Hinduism is based upon respecting each individual and the Swadharma of each individual. We should have many paths and many religions. The idea of only one religious faith for all humanity is like having only one set of clothing for all humanity. It is like people having to eat only one type of food, or people having only one type of job. There should be diversity, abundance and freedom in the religious realm as well.

Unfortunately, all religions do not have the same goal. Religions have various goals. Religions are various paths. We should note that all religions are not theistic. There are non-theistic religions like Buddhism and Jainism where there is no creator God. There are religions with a multiplicity of deities. Monotheism is not the only form of religion in the world and it is not the best form either.

All forms of religious worship have their validity and Hinduism recognizes them whether they are, polytheism, monotheism or monism. Even atheists have their place in Hinduism. People should have complete freedom to reject religion if that is what they want to do. Hindu tradition is a sadhana tradition that aims at spiritual practice for self-realization. Most Christian traditions, for example the Protestant tradition, claim that faith alone is enough to save you.

This means that a person may be a mass murderer, but if on his deathbed he converts to Christianity, he will go to heaven. Another person may live the life of a saint, but if he does not convert to Christianity, there will be no heaven for him. Recently, in the United States, a woman who had been convicted of murder was converted to Christianity on death-row and the Christian leaders – particularly the fundamentalist Christians – asked for the death sentence to be removed because since that woman had converted to Christianity
therefore the sin no longer counted.

The same people would not have made the statement had the woman converted to Hinduism or any other non-Christian faith. We do need religious harmony and dialogue throughout the world. One of the most unfortunate things is that there is so much misinformation and even disinformation about Hinduism in the world. For example, in the New York Times, only last year, there was a story about the Amarnath pilgrimage in India. And what did the New York Times call it?

Hindus going to worship the sex organs of Shiva, the God of Destruction. What kind of tolerance is that? What kind of point of view is being projected by it? But I have to tell you that the fault for this is not really all with these western people. The fault lies with Hindus themselves. They have been very poor at expressing what their religion is and in countering disinformation and propaganda against them. They do not study their religion properly and so, they cannot explain what it is. They are also misinformed about other religions and think that other religions are just Hinduism in another form.

But you will not find these rich traditions of yoga, meditation, Vedas and Vedanta, in other traditions. Particularly in the Protestant tradition in the West they are rejected almost altogether and, to these Evangelical Christians, they are considered to be the work of the devil. Some people say that all religions teach the same thing. Well, Hinduism teaches the Law of Karma and Rebirth.

Christianity and Islam do not accept that. Some people say all religions teach the same things and they only differ in inessentials. Is the Law of Karma and the process of Rebirth something inessential?

Now, certainly there should be a respect for universal, ethical values such as truthfulness, non-violence, peace and harmony. These should be accepted for all human beings regardless of their religion. In fact, they should be projected for all of nature. One of the problems that I see in Christianity, as most Christians believe it, is that animals are considered to be devoid of a soul and only human beings can gain salvation.

One of the reasons that we are exploiting and destroying this planet is because we do not see the presence of a soul and consciousness in nature, the animals and the rest of the Universe. We must move beyond all our narrow, human-centric creeds. True religion is not a matter of name, form or identity. It is a matter of that which is eternal, that which is universal, that which no one owns and is a matter of consciousness, awareness and Truth.

The highest goal of the Hindu religion is self-realisation, not simply knowing God, but understanding who we are and the Divine presence within us. One of the main problems of humanity is that we do not understand ourselves and our motivations. Instead, based upon some dogma or belief, we are trying to get others to think and act like we do before we understand ourselves and understand them.

So let there be a dialogue. Let there be open, friendly and also critical communication in religion just as in science. But please let us expose and put an end to this missionary business and let us not think that the missionary business is tolerant. The missionary business is not about freedom of religion. It is about the triumph of one religion. It is not about secularism. The missionary business accepts that only one religion is true. It is a religious war aimed at religious control.

The way to challenge this is not through violence or through intolerance, but through being properly informed. It is through being open, friendly, dialoguing and talking to people, so they understand what the Hindu point of view is, so that any distortions about Hinduism are removed. We are all the same Divine being. We all share the same human nature and we must recognise that in all human beings for harmony to exist.

At the same time, we should not be naive about the forces of the world and the forces that are trying to disintegrate this society and this culture. I think it would be a tremendous loss if India gave up Hinduism and became another Christian or Islamic country. We have enough of these already. India has a wealth of its own spiritual traditions that the rest of the world needs. Why do Westerners come here? They come here for this wealth of spiritual knowledge. In fact, you should be exporting your religion. That is one thing you have enough of. There are other more important things that you need to import.

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  • Manish Parmar, UK.

    There are many great, intelligent and thought provoking articles here.

    I just read, Sanatan Dharma is the only faith that concludes so different religions but in essence they are all but one. No other faith will conclude this.

    There is a lack of identity amongst Indians, sometimes not as strong as say Black people, giving what they have endured through out history, white supremacy given the conquests of many lands.

    If we have such a culturally rich background and heritage, why can’t we conduct ourselves in a better manner ?

    Gurudev provides is highly intelligent and extremely committed to his cause and I welcome this, his efforts and drawing people to a more correct view of our Hindu philosophy of life and death.

    Manish Parmar, UK.

  • Dextersamuel

    I respect your views. but i think Hinduisum  is not  a religion but a way of life

    • Anonymous

      True, religion is more limited in the sense that it only is about Human-God relationship. But Hinduism is much more than that, it defines the very way a person leads his life from waking up in the morning till going to bed in the night, from birth till death. One can have lengthy debates in Hinduism without ever mentioning God. Its more about Who am I, and Why I am here, rather than How will God help me, How should I please God. Its more spiritual than religious – and yes there are multiple streams of thoughts.

  • Niranjan

    Guru if possible please read a book called Apprenticed to Himalayan Master by Sri M. Its a great autobiography.

    • Anonymous

      Thanks for guiding me to this book Niranjan. Have ordered it. Hope to read it soon, the reviews look very interesting :)

  • genene tasew

    i appriciate and suport it. i have got many awarness
    thanks alot

  • Qoheleth

    Guru Boy… I am back.

    BAN RELIGIOUS CONVERSIONS. PUT ALL CHRISTIANS BEHIND BARS.

  • sainath

    Below is excerpt from Swami Vivekananda’s speech…simply awesome
    ADDRESS AT THE FINAL SESSION
    27th September, 1893
    —————————————————————————-
    Much has been said of the common ground of religious unity. I am not going just now to venture my own theory. But if any one here hopes that this unity will come by the triumph of any one of the religions and the destruction of the others, to him I say, Brother, yours is an impossible hope. Do I wish that the Christian would become Hindu? God forbid. Do I wish that the Hindu or Buddhist would become Christian? God forbid.

    The seed is put in the ground, and earth and air and water are placed around it. Does the seed become the earth; or the air, or the water? No. It becomes a plant, it develops after the law of its own growth, assimilates the air, the earth, and the water, converts them into plant substance, and grows into a plant.

    Similar is the case with religion. The Christian is not to become a Hindu or a Buddhist, nor a Hindu or a Buddhist to become a Christian. But each must assimilate the spirit of the others and yet preserve his individuality and grow according to his own law of growth.

    If the Parliament of Religions has shown anything to the world it is this: It has proved to the world that holiness, purity and charity are not the exclusive possessions of any church in the world, and that every system has produced men and women of the most exalted character. In the face of this evidence, if anybody dreams of the exclusive survival of his own religion and the destruction of the others, I pity him from the bottom of my heart, and point out to him that upon the banner of every religion will soon be written, in spite of resistance: “”Help and not Fight,”" “”Assimilation and not Destruction,”" “”Harmony and Peace and not Dissension.”"
    —————————————————————————-

  • http://mbkaysblog Muthukaruppan

    A CORRECTION IN MY RESPONSE at 6-18 pm, Jan 8, 08:: “”We will find it difficult to improve on Sastrijis guidance that Hindus must first and foremost get rid of THEIR IGNORANCE of their own superior spiritual heritage which they must spread on the whole of earth, rather than allow missionary activities to be carried on with increasing virulence and using government and politicians support.”" [I found that I had omitted the words THEIR IGNORANCE in that long sentence.]

  • http://mbkaysblog Muthukaruppan

    Two latest news which are relevant for our discussion on this blog are: a) the blasts in Lebanon against the perceived Christian missionary and anti-Islamic activities there; and b) a bishop from Asia, the name of one De’Sousa from India being mentioned in particular, is likely to become the next Pope. Not that this topic should be necessarily discussed with details, but the relevance arises thus: News (a) is nothing but a result of mercenary Christian activities that have resulted in virtual bifurcation of the country on religious lines and animosities between the two sections. News (b) portends the certain prospect that India is likely to be more effectively poised for Christianization through all half-veiled political and official methods of support. As things are today, India is under an extremely anti-Hindu poloitical configuration (a PM, who happens to be a Sikh, who is least informed about Hinduism as the soul of India’s culture since immemorial times and would half unwittingly contribute to the pseudo-secularism that is the word for casteist politics of the Coalition partners; an Italian-born back-stage puppet operator of the government in the form of Sonia and her ‘Rising Son’ in Rahul Gandhi; a variety of confused politicians like the Communists from Kerala and West Bengal who would never abandon what even its originators and erstwhile practitioners already did as an unwise ideology for the modern world, and who would not take a lesson from China to keep off missionaries from creating religious division and trouble, as well as people like Karunanidhi who fancy themselves to be atheists despite their master-piece productions in which a Kannagi burns a whole city with the power of her chastity.

    The portents implicit in news (a) and (b) visavis the evil political configuration of India today, should be viewed by all supporters of Sanaatana wisdom, WITH DUE CONCERN.

  • http://mbkaysblog Muthukaruppan

    Dr David Frawley (lovingly called by himself and by numerous others as VAMADEVA SASTRI; and I opt to refer to him as such) displays his deep commitment to exhorting and awakening of the misguided ones of all hues and colours, among us Hindus, to open their eyes to their own unque heritage of their SANAATANA, eternal, universal religion. It is an irony of our times that we need to be thus exhorted because of our ignorance of what this adjective, SANAATANA, implies. We must support him and his campaign in our interests, nay, the interests of mankind along with all ecology. I wish Sastriji a full century span of life and more to carry on this campaign and score victories that are solid as well as visible even to the most harebrained among people everywhere. That would mean an upsurge in all world against and ban on all conversions most especially by Christian missionaries read mercenaries trading religion for allurements of all kinds, and in increasingly ‘innovated’ and improper and unlawful ways, exploiting ignorance and sufferings of people in the material world for ABSOLUTELY NO SPIRITUAL BENEFIT UNLESS IT BE HATRED AND ANIMOSITY BETWEEN INDIVIDUALS THROUGH RELIGIOUS DIVISION OF SOCIETIES.

    We will find it difficult to improve on Sastriji’s guidance that Hindus must first and foremost get rid of their own superior spiritual heritage which they must spread on the whole of earth, rather than allow missionary activities to be carried on with increasing virulence and using government and politicians’ support. The Hindus here spoken include those who must be brought back home to the religion they were made to betray – only to be betrayed by the new religion – as well as the psueo and semi intellectual sections among Hindus. It is the rest of us Hindus, welcomingly enlisting all support from people like Sastriji, who should bring about this change from ignorance to full understanding and the associated pride and confidence for the future as carriers of the universal Vedic message.

    Yes, as Sastriji says, it sounds glib for anyone to say that the Sanaatana dharma is the only religion which proclaims the oneness of all religions (in that they lead to the same ultimate goal of realizing Divine bliss) – if, in actual practice, the mercenaries are allowed to spiritually de-sensitize the poor and the ignorant with material crumbs like free / highly concessional education, hospital care, and so on. To allow them will mean that we are at the best paying lipservice to the fact of India’s eternal spiritual message for all world.

    Not that the material upliftment needs of the needy and the poor should be ignored in this spiritualizing process. Indeed our various missions and Maths and Ashrams must be urged to intensify their activities on the economic upliftment through concessional education and the like, and those organizations must be supported very substantially more than at present, so that the mercenaries cease to be the attraction that they are today for the under-privileged people to turn to CHristianity and lose the deepest strains of spirituality that the age-old traidtions of Hinduism have instilled in their very core.

    By the way, I acknowledge having noted with particular interest Gurudev’s affirmation as he puts it: “” I am not really that sattvic when it comes to such matters , for I am more influenced by Krishna and Chanakya than by Gandhi or Buddha! Be that to those what they are to you, is my funda in life.”" I reciprocate by pledging all my support in the form of inputs to his beautiful blogs on spirituality, religion, as well as on so many other topics which I find are enthusiastically contributed to by a number of people, be it thoughtfully, in lighter vein, in brusque terms and in clear terms like Gurudev himself, and in rather loaded language if I may say so (such as myself!). Dissenting notes by some participants add to stimulation to further thought and as long as one is prepared for it, must welcome it since they can expand upon, even recheck, what one wrote in the first instance.

  • http://www.hitxp.com/ Gurudev

    Excellent information guys, thanks to all…

    Well Muthukaruppan, atleast I am not really that sattvic when it comes to such matters :) , for I am more influenced by Krishna and Chanakya than by Gandhi or Buddha! Be that to those what they are to you, is my funda in life.

    Vijay, let me assure you and others here, we are not JUST talking. Preparation precedes action. Discussion precedes preparation. Krishna says – Sambhavaami Yuge Yuge

  • vijay

    Perfectly said Muthukaruppan, you have said what is there in the heart of millions of hindus. But, once you start cuh debates you also encounter mad guys who are just there to accuse hindus of practicing casteism and write such stupid comments:

    http://hitxp.wordpress.com/2007/09/16/birth-date-of-rama/#comment-6967

    They label anyone who tries to sincerely follow hinduism as fundamentalists and call themselves ‘secular’ while openly supporting such forced conversions. What do we do of such idiots. India has already been infected by such worms, we cant do much but talk.

  • http://ScientificVerificationofVedicKnowledgeinHinduism Muthukaruppan

    Do you know, some of the socalled NGOs. (non governmental organizations) operating in India are actually crypto-Christian propaganda and conversion setups in
    disguise ? I said ‘crypto’ (hidden, concealed, disguised) because naming them here can unnecessarily make this blog an ugly hotbed of feigned protests from these rogue organizations which, with their money power and even political backing, cannot be properly countered effecively by Saatvik people of the kind who write on this blog – UNLESS OF COURSE matching political backing is mustered for doing so. But one way you can pick up some of the NGOs, and look at the names of people higher up in their hierarchy of office-bearers (which again are disguised sometimes as to the Christian part of the name!) . One great pity, talking about our own Heads of Hindu religious organizations, is that they are utterly apathetic to all these anti-national goings on, which comprise collection of mountains of money in the name of charity of orphans from even Hindus who are too gullible to disbelieve their extreme anti-Hindu objectives. The method they employ is to employ Hindu unemployed youth, pay a pro rata commission for the donations with a brazenly mendacious ad that they are non-religious causes and vivid orphan photos and descriptions of how the moneys are spent (further distributed to other organizations which are themselves conversion agencies), backed by very appealing requests for huge donations
    ( e.g., Rs.5000/- per child for a month, or Rs.50,000/- a year, …., the choice of one of these options, with a cheque for the amount, being left to the donor). In one instance of such donation campaign, I was approached for issuing a cheque for my chosen option. Three people, none Christian, indeed all Hindus, formed the canvassing group, which comprised an educated young man from the North, and two from Karnataka including a highly qualified unemployed person who had been duped into believing that he would get merit for serving for a noble cause of orphan Ashram). Immediately when I say this about the canvassers’ composition, a feigned protest will likely be put on this blog, branding me a rabid communalist who does not understand charity. But the question is, why Christian missionaries should dupe us to indulge in illegal activities aimed at dividing Hindus and harming their harmony and unity ? Do you think these NGOs. will teach the essence of Bhagavad-gita or Ramayana or any of those innumerable sacred Hindu texts, to these orphan children ? THEY WILL NEVER DO THIS, BUT YOU CAN FIND CHRISTIANITY BEING VIRULENTLY THRUST ON PEOPLE FOR CHARITY, BASED ON HINDU MONEY, USING INNUMERABLE HIDDEN METHODS. What sacredness do these Missionaries attach to the Biblicl teaching against deception, while they gleefully indulge in increasing their flock to fulfil Papal obectives using yearwise conversion targets ? Does not Hinduism teach whatever was taught by Jesus Christ, and go much, much farther than that, with its practical philosophies based on Karma and Re-incarnation, Universal consciousness, Unity of all religions taking mere ethics of living and personal qualities (Aatma gunas) ? Our politicians are not only NOT INTERESTED in curbing these hidden religious criminals, but also in supporting them whenever it heps them to use the support for garnering more votes. Most of our politicians have not undergone any discipline of any religious, spiritual or even materialisic study in any rigorous and formal way for years, but almost all of them are past masters in the art of public deception to loot them and to accumulate vulgar riches, and yet power through election after election. Most of our religious bodies, as stated earlier, lack foresight of the future, since they lost true spiritual power long ago, giving themselves up to mere pride of being their heads or just idling mendicants with a mere smattering and shallow knowledge of our scriptures and their universal and eternal message for all humanity, and above all, respect for othe religions as far as they go. Some of the Sankara mathas, in particular, despise any efforts to fight the aggressive evil of Christian conversion programme in India, saying that it is not in our religious culture to fight conversion. Equally deplorable, due to their lost spiritual power, they spend a lot of time and instigate their followers (explicitly or by observing silence) to fight against counterpart Sankara mathas in other locations of the country, saying they are not genuine ones, or that they don’t have the capability to sustain the Vedic traditions ! Now the question arises, if they do not stemp the tide of conversions, willl they have space on Hinduism’s own soil, or even liberty, to preach religion or practise austerities after say 50 or 60 years. Don’t forget that Christian and Muslim populations together are statistically estimated (if correct statistics, not the official ones, are used) to outnumber the Hindu population by that time. They should know that Advaita Vedanta is a kind of advanced philosophical theory unique to our religion, is not of much use as a socio-political ph8losophy on which the other religions are based. It is a source of inspiration in the most advanced echelons of modern science. It is therefore largely dealt with by the Universities in India and abroad. The Mathas must intoduce an element of reform, and devise methods by which uplift programmes for the poor and the exploited, encourgement of merit wherever it is found, must be institutionally pursued, as a counter to (Islamic and) Christian conversionary activities which will eventually erase our culture. They must also first get their abc-s of the Varna and Aashrama principles of Hinduism right, and study to what extent they are in actual practice, given the truth of th unstoppable modern social and political tidal waves. If necessary, flaws in their understanding of those principles must be corrected by them, and accordingly they must introduce reforms in our religion. To what extent and in what sense birth/heredity can play any role in the modern world, and what is the role of the ‘sva-bhavas’ which defined, as per Bhagavad-gita, the Varnas of our old social system. After all, ‘yuga-dharma’ is an integral principle of our eternal-unviersal religion
    (where the term Yuga cannot be literally taken to mean the milllions of years of the Kali and the earlier Yugas of the four-yuga cycles, but simply a relatively short span where visible changes in the attitudes of men and women have occurred visavis religion and spirituality pitted against science and technology. Our administrators, and scholars, lastly, must help the uneducated politicians on what can be the real meaning of secularism and how it should be applied so that it can be just a contemporary application of the age-old, uniquely Hindu virtue of religious tolerance, which neither involves shunning of followers of other religions nor turning a blind eye to viruleent conversion campaigns by other fundamentalists of other religions, espcially the Pope. If we remember that the age-old Sanatana dharma is for all humanity, then it will be realized that our religious heads of various descriptions have a great duty to spread our religion, aacross the world, both among the religiously misguided Hindus who despise their own religion, and among the non-Hindus (but not conversion except on their own choice.).

  • I=Indian

    YSR Reddy = Y Samuel Rajasekhar reddy, the current chief minister of Andhra Pradesh is a second generation christian. We have no problems with him being a christian. But causing trouble in shrines of hindu faith in the state makes hindus like me hate such christians, and the church and christianity behind them.

    His father, Mr. Raja Reddy, while serving in the military in Burma came across Christian missionaries and converted to Christianity. Any one could contact the Diocese of Krishna-Godavari [Machilipatnam-Bishop Rev. G. Dyvasirvadam - also Past Professor in Andhra Christian Theological College - an ecumenical Seminary in Gandhinagar, Hyderabad] or the Diocese of Nandyal [Nandyal-Bishop Rev. G.T. Abraham - also Past Professor in Andhra Christian Theological College, Gandhinagar, Hyderabad] to verify the antecedants as stated.

    Sri Y.S. Vivekananda Reddy, the brother of Sri Rajasekhara Reddy is a fund-raiser and member of the local committee of the Bible Society of India headquartered in Bangalore with auxiliaries in each state. Likewise, Sri Rajasekhara Reddy’s sister is into conducting Bible classes for women. Mr. Rajasekhara’s son-in-law is a global evangelist speaker.

    He has used his position to bring Christian institutions into the decision making loop of the Tirumala Tirupathi Devasthanam. Suspicions were aroused due to a sudden proliferation of churches along the roads leading to the holy shrine and a recent auction of Hindu temple land in Tirumula being hastily called off when it became known that Christian groups were attempting to make a bid.

    http://www.christianaggression.com/item_display.php?type=ARTICLES&id=1116281721

    http://www.christianaggression.com/item_display.php?type=NEWS&id=1194406907

  • sakraghu

    Religion to me is somebody else’s interpretation of God. Belief in God or some in a higher super energy/force is more universal than belief in religion. Belief is God also varies from individual to individual.

    Sadly with the Abrahamic religions man kind has only found another way to find divisions amongst themselves totally forgetting the purpose of religion itself! Although what is now called Hinduism (Sanathana Dharma) in its pristine form was pluristic and inherently tolerant, the present form of Hinduism has been affected greatly by the Abrahamic divisive hatred and beliefs too.

    I believe the less people talk religion and instead accept each other’s belief in God or a higher power the better we will get as a race of living beings!

    Raghu

  • http://ScientificVerificationofVedicKnowledgeinHinduism Muthukaruppan

    A little correction: “”Mahatma Gandhi has gone on record saying that while he would let the cool breezes (of different religions of the world) blow through his land, India, he would NOT like those winds blow him off his feet in his own ground”".
    Also: poignantly (not: pignantly)

  • http://ScientificVerificationofVedicKnowledgeinHinduism Muthukaruppan

    Mahatma Gandhi has gone on record saying that while he would let the cool breezes (of different religions of the world) blow through his land, India, but he would like those winds blow him off his feet in his own ground. If he had the power, he would ban all missionary, read mercenary, activity, but want them to pursue Christian charities without demanding a price in the form of a convert. The Mahatma has pignantly described how, to his knowledge, several families in which a single member was converted, without a consent of his parents or other family members, were devastated horribly as a result of this religious poaching causing deep anguish and emotional scar for ever. He has also vehemently lashed out against the conversion priests penchant to indulge in anti-Hindu propaganda without any restraint, and ridiculing its deities that appeal so easily and provides solace to the suffering common man and also its Vedantic philosophy which makes the profound revelation of the thread of universal consciousness binding all lives and matter. The most unfortunate tragedy of India today is a democratic secularism which is solely aimed at slicing a maximum of the vote of the religious minorities, which at the same time takes the Hindu vote for granted, and formulates all policies to exclusively appease the minorities including on the Christian virulent conversion activities under Papal targets.

  • I=Indian

    Secular Media and its Secularism

    Muslims killed in the Gujarat riots in 2002 is a holocaust, communalism and is repeatedly debated day after day year after year;
    Ethnic cleansing of thousands of Hindu Kashmiri Pandits in the past two decades in Kashmir by Islamic Terrorists, over 400,000 Kashmir Pandits becoming refugees in their own country is only a political problem not even worth mentioning!
    Poor villagers getting shot in West Bengal under Communist Govt is just a plain misunderstanding!
    3,000 Sikhs slaughtered by Congress in 1984 was only a big mistake!

    Congress denying Lord Rama’s existence was simply a Clerical Error. But BJP saying it hurt Hindu sentiments is communal!

    Haj subsidies for Muslim pilgrimage worth 3000 crores funded by Hindu tax money is secular; But Hindus asking for similar subsidies for Manas Sarovar or Amarnath yatra is communal;

    Beating up of a woman, Taslima Nasreen by islamic fundamentalists is reaction; Hindus voicing against MF Hussain for painting Hindu gods nude is Hindu intolerance;

    Banning Da Vinci Code and Jo Bole So Nihaal was Secular,
    But Modi Banning Parzania in Gujarat was Communal;

    Chinese invasion in 1962 was just an ‘unfortunate betrayal’;
    Kargil attack during BJP Rule was Government failure;

    Fake encounters under Cong-NCP in Maharashtra [Khwaja Younus] was only an instance of Police atrocity;
    But Fake encounters in Gujarat [ Sohrabuddin who was a wanted criminal in four states and had piled up arms and ammunition at home] was Modi sponsored ‘BJP’ Communalism;

    Talking about Islam and Muslim appeasement and Sachar is Secular;
    But talking about Hindus and Hindu concerns is dangerous and Communal;

    BJP’ freeing the terrorists (flight 814) to save Indian hostages was Shameful;
    But freeing 5 militants to save the life of the daughter of a minister [Rubina Sayeed] was a Natural Political dilemma;

    Attack on Parliament was the result of BJP ineptitude;
    But Congress Not hanging terrorist Afzal Guru,the mastermind behind parliament attack despite Supreme Court orders is due to Humanity and Political dilemma……

    Want more?
    Secular story of India continues..`

  • http://kislaychandra.blogspot.com Kislay

    Great job Gurubhai . Religious intolerance is one of the most serious problems that Humanity is facing today . I googled that Pat Robertson guy , and my God , is that guy evil ! What pisses me off more that he was born on the same day as me ! I wrote something on my blog about Tolerance , check it out if you are free . http://kislaychandra.blogspot.com/ .

  • vijay

    Fantastic speech by Frawley, he has said the truth and I particularly felt sad at the truth that we as Hindus dont respect our way of life, dont respect our sacred texts, just ape the western culture.

  • Ramya

    Right ! David Frawley is a great man. Sad to know that highly intellectual hindus or indian culture are less ignorant than this great man.
    America is a largest land continent enough to sustain population of other parts of world. In fact , Indian on the whole living abroad is feeling shy to speak about indian and its multilingual. By taking this opportunity, whites are making a false notion about India .But me , it may be logical in India one country being multilingual .
    Christians forget themselves that they made countries out of different languages like in Europe german, french , spanish , italian and etc…. Only difference is that we have regional languages with one religion in regional states.
    These have created different countries out of one religion .
    America in general have a very arrogant attitude based but
    better than any other christian countries.
    Regarding Native Americans , early immigrants are double sided and greediest human beings. Any apology done so far is just an eyewash. They did it from the lips not from the heart . They pushed & pushed hard themselves to apologize in disguising harsh winter climate. Any common sense would understand if he/she lives in this country within 4-7 years.
    I am writing one side of the America.The other side of America is progressive in technology revolution and many things etc…….