Science of Genetics behind the Hindu Gotra System – The Y Chromosome and the Male Lineage

This article is merely an attempt to find the scientific reasoning behind the origins of the ancient Gotra System and in no way endorses its imposition in the modern Hindu society to decide marriages or other things. In all probabilities, the modern Gotra system is no more relevant, and the best method to verify the genetic feasibility of a marriage, if at all required, would be to avoid cousin marriages (which have been proved to increase the risk of genetic disorders in the off springs) or to do a genetic test of the bride and groom’s DNA for any possible genetic disorders in their off springs.

The Hindu Gotra System – Male Lineage Identification

The Gotra is a system which associates a person with his most ancient or root ancestor in an unbroken male lineage. For instance if a person says that he belongs to the Bharadwaja Gotra then it means that he traces back his male ancestry to the ancient Rishi (Saint or Seer) Bharadwaja. So Gotra refers to the Root Person in a person’s male lineage.

The Gotra system is practiced amongst most Hindus. See here for a List of Hindu Gotras practiced by different sections of the Hindu Society

Brahmins identify their male lineage by considering themselves to be the descendants of the 8 great Rishis ie Saptarshis (The Seven Sacred Saints) + Bharadwaja Rishi. So the list of root Brahmin Gotras is as follows

  • Angirasa
  • Atri
  • Gautam
  • Kashyapa
  • Bhrigu
  • Vasistha
  • Kutsa
  • Bharadwaja

These 8 Rishis are called Gotrakarin meaning roots of Gotras. All other Brahmin Gotras evolved from one of the above Gotras. What this means is that the descendants of these Rishis over time started their own Gotras. The total number of established Gotras today is 49. However each of them finally trace back to one of the root Gotrakarin Rishi.

The word Gotra is formed from the two Sanskrit words Gau (meaning Cow) and Trahi (meaning Shed).
Note that the English word Cow is a derived word of the Sanskrit word Gau with the same meaning Gau.

So Gotra means Cowshed, where in the context is that Gotra is like the Cowshed protecting a particular male lineage. Cows are extremely important sacred animals to Hindus and there were a large number of best breeds of Cows that ancient Hindus reared and worshipped, and hence the name Gotra referring to the system of maintaining individual male lineages seems more appropriate.

Importance of Son in the Gotra System

This Gotra system helps one identify his male lineage and is passed down automatically from Father to Son. But the Gotra system does not get automatically passed down from Father to Daughter. Suppose a person with Gotra Angirasa has a Son. Now suppose the Son gets married to a girl whose father belongs to Gotra Kashyapa. The Gotra of the girl automatically is said to become Angirasa after her marriage even though her father belonged to Gotra Kashyapa.

So the rule of the Gotra system is that the Gotra of men remains the same, while the Gotra of the woman becomes the Gotra of their husband after marriage. Now suppose a person has only daughters and no sons. In that case his Gotra will end with him in that lineage because his daughters will belong to the Gotras of their husbands after their marriage!

This was probably the reason why in the ancient vedic or hindu societies it was preferred to have atleast one Son along with any number of daughters, so that the Gotra of the father could continue.

But isn’t this crap? Why should only Sons carry the Gotra of their father, why can’t daughters? How does the Gotra of a daughter change just because she marries a person belonging to a different Gotra? What is the necessity of maintaining only the man’s ancestry, why not maintain that of women too? This was the question that was puzzling me about this Gotra system till recently, until I found out the scientific reasoning behind the Gotra system by chance while studying a puzzle in modern Genetics for which the biologists are trying to find an answer!

But before that..

A Girl and a Boy belonging to the same Gotra cannot marry!

This is the most important and the only rule in the Gotra system if I may say so. Yes, a Bride and a Bridegroom belonging to the same Gotra are considered to be siblings and hence it is prohibited for them to marry even if they belong to distant families. The reason given was since they belonged to the same ancestor, it will be like a brother marrying a sister which is known to cause genetic disorders in their offspring.

As I can see now, probably the prevention of marriages within the same Gotra was the only reason for the Gotra system to be created.

But again I used to think, what a crap, how can a boy and a girl belonging to two different families who haven’t met for centuries be considered as siblings?

Only until I was able to correlate a puzzle in modern Genetics to the Gotra system.

And now to the Science behind the Gotra System, but before that let us just check out one more additional rule related to marriages in the Gotra System.

Pravaras and the Gotras

Pravara is a list of most excellent Rishis in a Gotra lineage. As we saw earlier, some of the descendants of the most ancient Gotras started their own Gotras, however they maintained a list of Pravaras while doing so and attached the list of their most excellent Ancestors with this derived Gotras.

For instance the Vatsa Gotra has Bhargava, Chyavana, Jamadagnya , Apnavana as their Pravaras. What this means is that Vatsa Gotra has in its lineage all these Gotras and traces back its root to Bhrigu Rishi in the list of Gotrakarins.

The idea behind this Pravara system is probably to ensure that the derived Gotras still maintain track of their root Gotras, and this in turn is used to ensure that Bride and Bridegroom from no two derived Gotras coming from the same root Gotra marry each other. Every Gotra which is a derived Gotra maintains a list of Pravaras attached to it.

This is because, the essence of the Gotra system is finally to prevent marriages within the same Gotra. Now consider two derived Gotras which came from the same Gotra, then it might happen that over time people might forget that both these Gotras came from the same root Gotra, and may allow marriages within these Gotras since their names are different! To prevent this, the derived Gotras maintained a list of Pravaras (which were the prominent junctions where the derived Gotras got created), and the additional rule in the Gotra system is that, even if the Bride and Bridegroom belong to different Gotras, they still cannot get married even if just one of their Gotra Pravara matches.

This makes sense as this prevents marriages between derived Gotras which belong to the same root Gotra. This reminds me of a similar logic in the modern Object Oriented Programming in Software Systems.

Derived Classes

Consider a Class B which is derived from Class A, and another Class C which is also derived from Class B. Now Consider another Class D which is derived from both Class B and Class C (multiple inheritance like in C++). If we look at the immediate ancestry of Class D, then it appears that Class B and Class C are the parents of Class D. But if you look at the ancestors of Class B and Class C, then they are the Children of Class A. Now if we replace the classes A, B and C with Gotras, then we can see that even if two Gotras B and C are different Gotras, if they share the same parent Gotra A (enlisted in the form of Pravaras), then they will become siblings, and hence the marriage between two different Gotras sharing the same Pravara is not allowed.

But again the question remained – what is the basis to prevent marriages within the same Gotras even after thousands of years later the roots separated? How can hundreds of generations later they can still be considered to be the children of same parents just because they belong to same Gotra (male lineage) or to different Gotras sharing the same Pravara (again the male lineage)?

Now to the Science behind the Gotra System, but before that let us refresh a bit of our knowledge about Genetics.

Chromosomes and Genes

Humans have 23 pairs of Chromosomes and in each pair one Chromosome comes from the father and the other comes from the mother. So in all we have 46 Chromosomes in every cell, of which 23 come from the mother and 23 from the father.

Of these 23 pairs, there is one pair called the Sex Chromosomes which decide the gender of the person. During conception, if the resultant cell has XX sex chromosomes then the child will be a girl and if it is XY then the child will be a boy. X chromosome decides the female attributes of a person and Y Chromosome decides the male attributes of a person.

When the initial embryonic cell has XY chromosome, the female attributes get suppressed by the genes in the Y Chromosome and the embryo develops into a male child. Since only men have Y Chromosomes, son always gets his Y Chromosome from his father and the X Chromosome from his mother. On the other hand daughters always get their X Chromosomes, one each from both father and mother.

So the Y Chromosome is always preserved throughout a male lineage (Father – Son  -  Grandson etc) because a Son always gets it from his father, while the X Chromosome is not preserved in the female lineage (Mother, Daughter, Grand Daughter etc) because it comes from both father and mother.

A mother will pass either her mother’s X Chromosome to her Children or her father’s X Chromosome to her children or a combination of both because of both her X Chromosomes getting mixed (called as Crossover). On the other hand, a Son always gets his father’s Y Chromosome and that too almost intact without any changes because there is no corresponding another Y chromosome in his cells to do any mixing as his combination is XY, while that of females is XX which hence allows for mixing as both are X Chromosomes.

Y Chromosome and the Vedic Gotra System

By now you might have got a clue about the relation between Y Chromosome and the Hindu Vedic Gotra System :)

Y Chromosome is the only Chromosome which gets passed down only between the men in a lineage. Women never get this Y Chromosome in their body. And hence Y Chromosome plays a crucial role in modern genetics in identifying the Genealogy ie male ancestry of a person. And the Gotra system was designed to track down the root Y Chromosome of a person quite easily. If a person belongs to Angirasa Gotra then it means that his Y Chromosome came all the way down over thousands of years of timespan from the Rishi Angirasa! And if a person belongs to a Gotra (say Bharadwaja) with Pravaras (Angirasa, Bhaarhaspatya, Bharadwaja), then it means that the person’s Y Chromosome came all the way down from Angirasa to Bhaarhaspatya to Bharadwaja to the person.

This also makes it clear why females are said to belong to the Gotra of their husbands after marriage. That is because women do not carry Y Chromosome, and their Sons will carry the Y Chromosome of the Father and hence the Gotra of a woman is said to be that of her husband after marriage. Pretty neat isn’t it?

All iz well so far, we now know the science behind the Gotra System. The ancient vedic Rishis hence very well knew the existence of the Y Chromosome and the paternal genetic material that was passed almost intact from father to Son, and hence created the Gotra system to identify their male lineages. Lord Buddha for instance belonged to Gautama Gotra which means that Buddha was a direct descendant of Rishi Gautama.

But then what is the reason to prevent marriages between individuals belonging to the same Gotra? Before we get into that, let us understand a bit more about the Y Chromosome.

The Weakness of the Y Chromosome

The Y Chromosome is the only Chromosome which does not have a similar pair in the human body. The pair of the Y Chromosome in humans is X Chromosome which is significantly different from Y Chromosome. Even the size of the Y Chromosome is just about one third the size of the X Chromosome. In other words throughout evolution the size of the Y Chromosome has been decreasing and it has lost most of its genes and has been reduced to its current size. Scientists are debating whether Y Chromosome will be able to survive for more than a few million years into the future or whether it will gradually vanish, and if it does so whether it will cause males to become extinct! Obviously because Y Chromosome is the one which makes a person male or a man. And if it becomes extinct, Biologists are not sure whether any other Chromosome in our body will be able to completely take over its functionality or not.

And the reason for all this is that unlike other Chromosomes, there is no way for Y Chromosome to repair itself by doing cross over with its Chromosomal pair. All other Chromosomes come in similar pairs and when there the DNA of one Chromosome gets damaged the cell can repair it by copying over the DNA from the other Chromosome in that pair as both the Chromosomes in all other pairs are almost identical in nature. This copying (or crossing over as it is called) also allows different combinations of mix and matches to happen between the genes of mother and father and allows the best of the matches to survive and hence make the Chromosomes stronger as they evolve in successive generations. Even X Chromosomes in female undergo this mix and match since there are two X Chromosomes in women.

However Y Chromosomes do not have any corresponding equivalent Chromosome in its pair. It can exist only in a XY Combination and X cannot mix and match with Y except for a small 5% of X which matches with Y, while the remaining 95% of Y Chromosome which is crucial in the development of a male have absolutely no match at all!. It is this 95% of the Y Chromosome which is completely responsible in humans for creating a male or a man.

But at the same time, Y Chromosome has to depend on itself to repair any of its injuries and for that it has created duplicate copies of its genes within itself. However this does not stop DNA damages in Y Chromosome which escape its local repair process from being propagated into the offspring males. This causes Y Chromosomes to accumulate more and more defects over a prolonged period of evolution and scientists believe that this is what is causing the Y Chromosome to keep losing its weight continuously.

As discussed earlier other Chromosomes do not face this issue because they have corresponding pairs from both the parents and the DNA damage could be easily corrected most of the time by the mix and match process that takes place between the two Chromosomes in a pair. This Chromosomal crossover process eliminates damaged genes and is one of the key processes in evolution of life.

So to summarize, Y Chromosome which is crucial for the creation and evolution of males has a fundamental weakness which is denying it participation in the normal process of evolution via Chromosomal mix and match to create better versions in every successive generation, and this weakness MAY lead to the extinction of Y Chromosome altogether over the next few million years, and if that happens scientists are not sure whether that would cause males to become extinct or not. And that is because Scientists are not sure whether any other Chromosome in the 23 pairs will be able to take over the role of the Y Chromosome or not. Is there a 2012 like doomsday calendar for Y Chromosome sometime in the future?

On the other hand, it is not necessary that humanity will not be able to survive if males become extinct. Note that females do not need the Y Chromosome, and since all females have X Chromosomes, it would be still possible to create a mechanism where X Chromosomes from different females are used to create offspring, say like injecting the nuclei from the egg of one female into the egg of another female to fertilize it and that would grow into a girl child. So yes, that would be a humanity where only females exist.

Now I understand why Hinduism and its Vedic core regard Mother Goddess or female divinity to be more powerful than all male divinity put together :)

Gotra System – An attempt to protect the Y Chromosome from becoming extinct ?

So here is my conclusion about the creation of the Gotra system by the ancient learned Vedic Rishis. The Vedic Rishis had observed the degeneration of the Y Chromosome and they wanted to maintain as many individual healthy unique Y Chromosome lineages as possible. That would give a fair chance for males to continue to exist because Y Chromosomes get passed on over generations with almost negligible change in their genetic combinations, as they do not take part in mix and match with other Chromosome.

So if the Rishis could devise a mechanism where in a given Y Chromosome had very little chance of adding more genetic defects in it, then they could probably succeed in either slowing down further degeneration of the Y Chromosome or even probably completely stop any further degeneration of the Y Chromosome.

And the only way to stop that was to ensure that the 5% of the Y Chromosome which can be mixed and crossed over with its X counterpart be protected so that the remaining 95% which does not take part in the mix and match process (which self heals by having duplicate copies of its genes) stays healthy.

Now we know even in modern Genetics that marriages between cousins will increase the risk of causing genetic disorders. That is because, say suppose there is a recessive dangerous gene in one person. What this means is that say a person is carrying a dangerous abnormality causing gene in one of his chromosome, but whose effect has been hidden in that person (or is not being expressed) because the corresponding gene in the pairing Chromosome is stronger and hence is preventing this abnormality causing gene from activating.

Now there are fair chances that his offsprings will be carriers of these genes throughout successive generations. As long as they keep marrying outside his genetic imprint, there is a fair chance that the defective gene will remain inactive since others outside this person’s lineage most probably do not have that defective gene. Now if after 5-10 generations down the line say one of his descendants marries some other descendant who may be really far away cousins. But then there is a possibility that both of them are still carrying the defective gene, and in that case their children will definitely have the defective gene express itself and cause the genetic abnormality in them as both the Chromosomes in the pair have the defective genes. Hence, the marriages between cousins always have a chance of causing an otherwise recessive, defective genes to express themselves resulting in children with genetic abnormalities.

So if the Vedic Rishis had allowed marriages within the same Gotras, then there were chances that the resulting male can be a victim of such defective gene expression, and any such gene expressions which took place in the 5% exposed area of the Y Chromosome would be fatal for the continuity of that Y Chromosome. Even after hundreds of generations there would still be chances of any defective genes being propagated within these successive generations, and marriage within the same Gotra would provide a golden opportunity for these genes to express themselves, there by causing the genetic abnormality in the offspring.

And hence the ancient Vedic Rishis created the Gotra system where they barred marriage between a boy and a girl belonging to the same Gotra no matter how deep the lineage tree was, in a bid to prevent inbreeding and completely eliminate all recessive defective genes from the human DNA.

Gotra System – A window of opportunity to study the Genetics of ancient Vedic Rishis

To add a final note, the veracity of the Gotra system can be checked by comparing the Y Chromosomes of males from different families of the same Gotra who are religiously following the Gotra system even today. That would not only prove the maintenance of male lineage throughout generations for thousands of years, but would also provide us with an opportunity to extract the Y Chromosomes of the ancient Vedic seers and study them.

NOTE: Section below added on April 28 2011 in response to this and this reader’s queries.

Why only the selected list of Rishis as root Gotras? Why not somebody else?

When we look at the list of the Gotrakarni Rishis (ie the root Gotras), you may note that almost all of these Rishis are also Prajapatis – Prajapatis are said to be the immediate descendants of Brahma (the Creator God) – who then went on to create their own progeny or lineage.

But isnt this crap? If Gotras started with sons of Brahma, doesnt that make them inter related as well, coming from the same root ie Brahma ? And isn’t this against evolution? Humans after all evolved from earlier species, and not were created all out of a sudden like some magic. Isnt it?

True, the idea behind Prajapatis is not that they are sons of Brahma in the literal sense. But Prajapatis refer to the chieftains who were at the beginning of the very initial human settlements in the ancient past. They were probably the first documented family heads whose lineage could be isolated as being unique, or probably headed the most influential family of those times.

NOTE: Section below added on April 30 2011 in response to a reader’s comment.

Is It adequate for a marriage if just the Gotra and Pravaras do not match?

No. Please note that the intention of the Gotra system is to avoid marriage within the same family and lineage as mentioned above, and hence it also states that marriages are not recommended with the maternal cousins even if the Gotras are different in this case.

To quote a rule of the Gotra System (Manusmriti 3/5)

AsapiMDAchayA mAtur sagOtrAchayA pituH |
sA praShasthA dvijAtInAM dArakarmaNi maithune ||

which means

When the man and woman do not belong to six generations from the maternal side
and also do not come from the father’s lineage, marriage between the two is good.

In other words, the Gotra System also does not recommend marriage with maternal cousins either, even if the Gotras are different in this case. This again is scientifically correct because cousin marriages with maternal cousins (like the marriage of a Son with Mother’s Sister’s Daughter) are also known to result in genetic disorders in the offspring.

NOTE: Section below added on May 4 2011 to prevent the misuse of this article by using this as a reference to prevent same Gotra marriages.

Should Gotra System be used to decide marriages?

Please note that of all the scientific reasonings mentioned in the article about the Gotra System, the ONLY PROVED science is that the

  • Gotra System maintains a Genetic Male Lineage via Y Chromosome.
  • Cousin marriages within the immediate family relations are known to cause Genetic Disorders

Now considering the fact that we are thousands of years away from when this Gotra system originated, and the Indian demographics have undergone substantial changes during this period – Whether we need to retain the Gotra rules in deciding marriage alliance and whether same Gotra Boy and Girl (when they come from distant families) still share the same genes like between immediate cousins – should be left to Science.

The Gotra System might have had its benefits in its initial days as it prevented marriages between closely related cousins then. But how appropriate would it be follow this system thousands of years later today in deciding matrimonial alliances? If Genetic studies based on analysis of Same Gotra families have not found any problem with same Gotra marriages scientifically, then there is no point in continuing with the Gotra system to decide matrimonial alliances.

Marriage is finally more of a bond between two souls rather than two bodies, so its nobody’s business to interfere in a marriage where the boy and girl are above minimal legal age required for marriage and are marrying with mutual consent.

References:

  • Muskan

    Should Gotra System be used to decide marriages?

    Please note that of all the scientific reasonings mentioned in the
    article about the Gotra System, the ONLY PROVED science is that the

    Gotra System maintains a Genetic Male Lineage via Y Chromosome.

    Cousin marriages within the immediate family relations are known to cause Genetic Disorders

    Now considering the fact that we are thousands of years away from
    when this Gotra system originated, and the Indian demographics have
    undergone substantial changes during this period – Whether we need to
    retain the Gotra rules in deciding marriage alliance and whether same
    Gotra Boy and Girl (when they come from distant families) still share
    the same genes like between immediate cousins – should be left to Science.

    The Gotra System might have had its benefits in its initial days as
    it prevented marriages between closely related cousins then. But how
    appropriate would it be follow this system thousands of years later
    today in deciding matrimonial alliances? If Genetic studies based on
    analysis of Same Gotra families have not found any problem with same
    Gotra marriages scientifically, then there is no point in continuing
    with the Gotra system to decide matrimonial alliances.

    Marriage is finally more of a bond between two souls rather than two
    bodies, so its nobody’s business to interfere in a marriage where the
    boy and girl are above minimal legal age required for marriage and are
    marrying with mutual consent.

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  • Muskan

    Plzzz tell me fast

  • Muskan

    I am muskan gautum nd I wanna do Marry with a boy nd his name his ankit bhardwaj. But his mother also belongs to gautum nd his mother from rajasthan but a gal from up . So if we ill do marriage so , Is thre any problm.

    • Prakash

      The “Gotra” theory ( and to some extent the practice ) seems to be plausible looking at the way the so called “upper caste” population in Hindu society maintained its “purity” and “togetherness” ! To a greater extent the Brahmins maintained ( and perhaps even developed ? ) their “gene bank” by keeping the flock together of the descendants of the 7 (seven) gotras by marriages within themselves ! Was it not a large scale “pooling” of those 7 genes throughout last thousands of years ? Perhaps it was a huge practical experiment , without any written theory to back it up , for the creation of a “genome” based group of superior human beings ( a race ? ) with fair skin , better intelligence and even better featured looks ?

  • Muskan

    Gal belongs to gautum nd boy belongs to bhardwaj…. but boy’s mother also belong so to gautum gotra…. Nd his mother is basically from rajasthan nd girl u.p .So the is any issue about surname….
    Is thre any problm if they get marry

  • Muskan

    Hey I m muskansharma nd I wanna 9 that if a boy belong to bhardwaj gotra nd gal belong to gautum his mother also belong to gautum gotra…. but his mother is basically frm rajasthan nd gal belongs to u.p . So I wanna 9 is thr any problem if they wanna do marry….?

  • Aks Aks

    i just did my paternal lineage DNA test to prove this gotra does not apply to my last name or the gora name as used in the family. I can see the reason behind this but as time went by, this gotra became invalid. The only way is by doing or know your DNA.

  • কে এস এম

    Very well explained and in a simple way. Hats off to you.

  • senthil

    While this is an excellent writeup, u missed out the difference b/w cross-cousin marriage (as existing in south india) and parallel cousin marriage (as exists outside india). Cross cousin marriage exists even from ancient times in south india, and is recognised in bodhayana sutra.

    I come from south india, and here most of the jathis do the cross-cousin marriage and were perfectly healthy. Every people group is adapted to their own matrimonial system, to which their genetic structure gets adopted to.

  • Madhav Srimohan

    All logics placed above are in accordance with Brahmins of the Varna vyavastha. Now could someone tell me how these facts apply to those who are not Brahmins? Those who are shoodras and/or of other religions must not be affected by the above scientific theory of genetics, right?
    Science is also selective, it sees caste before making some observation a ‘fact’.

    • RAVISANKAR

      Totally wrong Idea.All castes(within the Aryan fold) have Gothras.”Gothra” has nothing to do with Varna vyavastha.Gothra applies to all castes within the Arya fold.Religion has nothing to do with Gothra.Religion can not chage caste or Gothra.People outside the Aryan fold have other types of classifications.

  • jagan

    Boy is arasa padaiyachi and the girl is pailli’s in vanniyar caste….but if both are in same kotra if is possible to mairred…

    • RAVISANKAR

      Arrange for adoption of the girl by a relative/friend of different gothra.After adoption her Gotra changes to that of her adopted father.Go ahead with the marriage.

  • Lisa Bernstein

    well, i am an American and i understand it…..well written and not stuffy.

  • HARRYinTORONTO

    just awesome,. thanks for sharing.
    I do understand the naiveness of foreign people coz their brains are not set to believe the Hindu cultural mysteries but OTOH I just feel pity for few Indian who are blatantly ignoring the knowledge passed upon to us. I guess its the time India need Veda classes in schools or we would loose the culture in this world driven by technology.

  • BiologyPhDStudent

    Waah re waah. Most well written Pseudo-scientific bullshit I have ever seen. Kudos.

    • miki

      Sahi kaha

  • Bharat- Meri Janam Karam Bhumi

    I think you are absolutely right there only 7 or 8 variations of Y chromosome throughout the human race that belongs to 7 saptrishis from first manavantar and when X and Y from same rishi comes within a offspring than Y loses its dominance over X leads to a progeny with defects like eunuch, mentally retard. And it can be seen all over the world, that neglecting the person’s Gotra system before marriage for instance in other races and also hindus these days has resulted in increase of dumber human race and increased number of homosexuals, eunuch and lower IQ among the masses.

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  • Anonymous

    Women don’t carry the Y chromosome, period. So same gothra or not makes no difference in marriage. As simple as that!

  • Tarun

    I found thus to be an interesting article but with a couple of flawed arguments.
    1)You mentioned the fact that every male derives his Y chromosome from Gotra Rishi, and each Gotra Rishi has a distinct Y chomosome. But this is impossible because even all the Gotra Rishis at some point had a common ancestor so essentially there should be no variation among the Y chromosome of these Rishis especially considering your statement that their descendants thousands of years later preserve their Y chromosome.
    2) Your mentioning of “best breeds of Y chromosome” is incorrect because how can you define what is best? Most of the important genes for intelligence, health etc lie on the autosomes.
    3) Recent studies suggest that despite the possibility of extinction of the Y chromosome, it does not mean males will go extinct.
    4) also it would be great if you could ellucidate why it is particularly important to preserve the Y chromosome. So what if your descendant doesn’t have it? Women are just as capable of working and contributing to society as men. What’s the Hindu take on this?
    Would appreciate if you could share your opinion about this as I seek to develop a better understanding of my religion. Thanks!

    • Tarun

      Also would like to add that your claim that marriage between people who have the same common ancestor a thousand or more years ago can lead to genetic defects in the progeny is incorrect as plenty of variations occur within the genes within that time period.

    • Uditya Tyagi

      If you study modern evolution concept it doesn’t say that we all came from one man ie adam, it says there were many homo sapiens and not just one man and one woman as in the abrahimic religions. Hinduism says the same thing.

  • Sreeni

    Sir I wanted to know if its appropriate that i Koushika gotra can marry a girl from Vishwamitrasa gotra? Is there a solution if we still want the marriage to proceed ahead?

  • soumya

    my husband’s parents were initially hindu but now converted to Christians…but my husband is hindu itself after our marriage(love marriage)…..need to know my son’s gotra…..I can provide my son’s dob,nakshtra,rashi and birth timings…..i’m gowda my gotra is iiji gotra…..pls pls help…….

    • itzguru

      your son’s gotra will be that of your husband’s, which will be the gotra of your father-in-law as well.

  • soumya

    hello sir…..I m married to an Christian, its a love marriage. i’m gowda…we got a son now….my gotra is iiji gotra…need to know my son gotra please help……or can we adopt a gotra by my son’s rashi, nakshtra, dob and birth timings…….pls pls help

  • RAVISANKAR

    If one does not know his gotra it will be because he has no gotra since his lineage is from non-aryan races.This has nothing to do with being “underprivileged”.Hindus with lineage of non-aryan races/tribes need not feel anything bad about not having any gotra.There is no need to feel embarassed to say that there is no gotra or the gotra is unknown.Can state only the name and birth star(if known) or only the name while doing a pooja.Pooja can be done without stating any name also.No need to stop asking(as suggested) because this may make those who want to state their gotra unhappy.Non-Hindu converts to Hinduism will not have a gotra. No problem with this.

  • Anamika

    What is the gotra for the underprivileged who don’t know their lineage? Why to ask this during puja and embarrass them?

  • Muralidhara

    Hi all.
    In fact it is an excellent article throwing light over gotras and genetic science. Its really amazing. I came to know to some extent about all these. I still have doubt, when this male has Y chromosome what’z the reason behind infertility? is due to lack of good chromosomes or no chromosomes

    • itzguru

      Infertility in males, usually because of low sperm count, can happen due to a lot of different reasons like work stress, obesity, drug consumption, alcohol addiction, tobacco smoking, excessive heat to testes (like spending too much time on leather seats etc).

  • SethuSubramanian

    Where is Kausika gOtram in the list? You delisted it.

  • arun

    which intelligent homosepian you are referring to? you and me are also homosepian including all other 5-6 billion homosepians on earth. none with availability of latest supercomputers and technologies, have still been able to understand genetics till now but someone millions of years ago was able to understand all these things???

    • itzguru

      intellectual arrogance at its best. Homo sapiens who have had the same intelligent brain for more than 1.2 million years discovered scientific knowledge and invented technology for the first time in past 500 to 2000 years?!

      scientific progress is not linear like evolution, it moves up and down in cycles along with the rise and fall of the civilizations associated with it. Else scientists today wont be scratching their heads about the technology behind the Iron Pillar that doesnt rust in Delhi and else where in India, or about how exactly the ancient Pyramids were built, or about how can Mhabharata describe the impact of nuclear weapons (read Oppenheimer).

    • kumar

      I am very impressed by your desire to fall inline with common sense, Arun! Yet why don’t you stretch yourself a vee-bit to think and visualize slightly differently? The Sumerian descriptions tell a different story about the creation which in modification we find in all major religions.There was a creator- call him Brahma or Anu or Ninuursag, Prajapathi or Heavenly father. In Hindu concepts, most of the terminologies associated with devas can be applied to robots as well! Why? is it natural a coincidence? doubtful!!

  • qwerty

    earlier there were rishies latter they had children . where did the childrens mothers come from ? where did the mothers fathers get their y chromoesome?

    • itzguru

      its not like some mythical one day creation story… somewhere in the beginning of the establishment of human civilization during the first major scientific advancements in the sub continent, the ancient scientists analyzed the weakening process of Y chromosomes and hence isolated the best available breeds of them into separate lineages and started the Gotra system. This is the theory. And it can be wrong as well.

    • itzguru

      It is not like that. After the civilization started off in ancient India, science advanced and at one point of time the then scientists found out about the weakening Y chromosomes. So to preserve them further, they identified the best breeds of Y chromosomes, named them after different rishis, and brought in a system of this Y lineage to preserve and propagate these healthy Y breeds.

      This is the theory. Now it might as well be that, the Y chromosomes actually belonged to these rishis or that they were actually named after the rishis who first discovered those individual breeds.

  • sureshjo

    Appreciate the application of genetics to the mythology of your belief.of course it is informative.if you could throw
    some light on how could “y” chromosome become weaker down the era’s not the x ?

  • 321

    Excellent article it is very informative, But i can not imagine how it could the lineages be unbroken over thousands of generations, i mean there must have been some adoptions, adultery occurring to break this lineage. it would only take one such event to break the entire system. I have noticed comments from other people mentioning infidelity and i can see how it would totally mess up the system. I don’t believe that it would wipe out the population as if it did certain cultures or countries would have been vanished by now. Anyways a great article explaining at least why we follow this system.

    • itzguru

      very much, there definitely has been genetic pollution over time, and its very much possible that the lineages have broken in many places.

    • RAVISANKAR

      The Child takes the Gothra of the father known.Even in the case of Adultery/Niyoga the Husband(known as the father of the child) owns the field(the wife) and any yield from the field belongs to him irrespective of who planted the seed.Adoptions are legal and permitted and changes the gothra of the child adopted.Hence the Gothras continue irrespective of genetic aberrations/adultery/adoptions.

      • VRD

        That does not sound right, how can the Gothra be of the husband rather than the actual father? how is that biologically possible? Surely the y chromosome is of the man who planted the seed.

        • RAVISANKAR

          gotra need not be “biologically”proved or disproved.Gotra and lineage continue as it is “apparent”.Linking gotra to Y Chromosomes is a little “far fetched”

          • 123

            The whole point of following the Gotra system according to this article is to preserve the y chromosome, now how would that be done without knowing the biological father? linking the y chromosome to the gotra is the most important aspect, otherwise what is the purpose?

            • RAVISANKAR

              We do not know for certain what were the planned aims behind the imposition of the Gothra system.This articles presumes (and tries to prove) that the aim of the Gothra system is to preserve the Y CHROMOSOME.Ido not agree with this proposition.In my opinion the Gothra system had nothing to do with Y Chromosomes.

  • Vivek Waghmare

    So instead of marrying someone from same gotra, one should marry someone from other caste, religion, country, continent, race to promote genetic diversity, thereby ensuring no birth defects are in children and children may contain stronger and useful genes from to distant parents.

    • itzguru

      of course…

    • RAVISANKAR

      If there are any medical statistics to prove or disprove the correctness of the suggestoin made for “cross breeding”,we can discuss further.

  • Vivek Waghmare

    Homo sapien? I thought Bramha was god who created homo sapiens magically from his belly button.

    • itzguru

      where on earth did you read that? If you are referring to the trinity of Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva and Brahma is the creation process of this Universe – it includes anything that refers to creation from the creation of the Universe to the evolution of life.

      Vishnu is the supreme consciousness ever existing irrespective of whether there is a physical universe or not. Which is why you read about Brahma being born and dying, universes get created and destroyed, but Vishnu is eternal.

      Shiva is the opposite process of Brahma, anything associated with destruction is Shiva.

      Those who have read the ancient texts know what is written there, those who haven’t keep writing what they like or what others tell them.

      • Vivek Waghmare

        Read it in Vishnu Bhagwata(vishnu purana)

        • itzguru

          I am sure it is an English translation where translators are well known to quote things out of context. Did you check the exact Sanskrit verses and try to find their meaning with some Sanskrit expert?

          I strongly recommend you read this once
          http://www.hitxp.com/articles/sanskrit-lessons/sanskrit-lesson-1-secret-science-sacred-sanskrit/

          • Vivek Waghmare

            No, I read it in Marathi. It is written by Saint Tukaram. A well celebrated saint in Maharashtra in Bhakti tradition of Saint Dnyaneshwar. His authority is undoubted.

            • itzguru

              Which is why I said read that Sanskrit related article. In Sanskrit we can build sentences with multiple independent meanings ie the same sentence means different when taken in different context. One of the reason most english translations are crap because they resort to word-to-word translations like how they do in other languages. Sanskrit does not work like that.

              In the vedas, puranas, upanishads etc the sentences in many places have been intelligently framed so that the same sentence has multiple meanings in multiple contexts. If you take the characters literally like human beings, it sounds like a story. If you take their root (dhatu) meanings and start analyzing, then you will get philosophy in some place, science in some, and sometimes both. Sometimes the sentence denotes a historic reference as well. Most of the Bhakti tradition saints only refer to the “story telling” context of these sanskrit sentences. You read the same sentences as explained in philosophical discourses, and you will see a completely different context and explanation.

              • itzguru

                Belly button is an attribute in Sanskrit which can refer to anything that is related to the source of birth, need not be human, it can be the birth of a star, a galaxy, a tree. In Sanskrit attributes have names, nor objects or things.

  • Vinayak Kini

    This is some amazing information! Never thought about this even though it is so obvious that only Y chromosome passes down from father to son to grand son and so on.

  • akash hirosh

    I can tell you how draupadhi had 100 children. The same way harry potter is a wizard and sauron hid is power in a ring and neptune ate all his children You know, using the crazy power of FICTION and MYTHOLOGY. Grow up.

    • itzguru

      Read the original Sanskrit Mahabharata where the process has been described. Else it will look like commenting on a movie without watching it. Those who have not watched it might believe you, but for those who have watched it, or those who will watch it later, will only reveal your knowledge about the movie when they watch it.

      The biggest issue with people today is to assume that inspite of humans having the same intelligent brain for more than a million year, they started thinking scientifically only in the past few centuries or so, and that all our ancestors were dumb, blind faith, some ritualistic creatures.

      You need to grow up by reading about the great knowledge our ancestors had. Ask an architect today what will be the science and effort required to build a pyramid or to create a single block Iron pillar like the one at Delhi which does not rust. Look at the science behind the ancient Sanskrit language which is on par with modern computer programming languages. Now that you have read what I have written, which you think is crap, just spend your time reading these two articles, and imagine for yourself, that those who could develop such a fine language of speech with so much science and forethought, was other sciences impossible for them?

      http://www.hitxp.com/articles/sanskrit-lessons/sanskrit-lesson-1-secret-science-sacred-sanskrit/

      http://www.hitxp.com/articles/sanskrit-lessons/dhatu-root-verbs-samskrit-grammar-dictionary/

      • akash hirosh

        I have read the original sanskrit mahabaratha. I grew up with a Gurukul education alongside my normal schooling. I have read the passage describing the process too. I TOO have noticed the wierd coincidental similarities to Cloning in those passages. but i had the common sense to understand them for what they were. coincidence. you on the other hand took a leap of faith and imagination and decided to believe that they knew how to clone. i am not the one without the evidence, its you. Jules verne describes a submarine in his novel before submarines were invented. countless Sci fi authors from before had descriptions of space ships and touch interfaces and AI before they were invented. Doesn’t mean they already knew or had the technology. Please, stop the Grandiose.

        • itzguru

          Can you tell me what exactly are the verses and their meanings?

          The difference between Jules Verne Novels and Mahabharata is that Vyasa clearly says Mahabharatha is itihas – documented history, while Jules Verne clearly says he is writing novel, a fiction. There is no reason for Vyasa who compiled all the vedic knowledge into the form we know today with such great effort under a project funded by Bhishma, representing the throne of Hastinapur, to cook up stories while documeting Itihaas.

          Did you care to read the arguments which I made, about human intelligence, evolution, the sanskrit links posted?

          I am not here to convince anyone, but I am more than convinced by what I know. Nobody can ask me to simply believe them, nor do I ask people to believe my blindly.

          If you really know Sanskrit as you claim, you should have known a lot by now. Have you read the knowledge in the vedas and upanishads and the different samhitas? You would have then clearly known the science our ancients had.

          Your argument is like saying, we don’t believe in Egyptians inscriptions about the giant pyramids built by them, if there were no pyramids today and only some inscriptions left. Then call it Grandiose.

  • Cognizant

    Just pseudo science! The author is entitled to his opinions. No facts here… Move on!

    • akash hirosh

      Its funny to read though :) . Its like watching a 10 year old kid trying to explain Modern genetics armed with reading fantasy novels and mythology. Aboslutely no facts, just pretty good imagination. Leads me to think whether the author would have actually done something constructive if hadn’t been so brainwashed with Hinduism or had got a serious scientific education.

      • itzguru

        You think you are intelligent, everybody have their own prism of seeing things, and all are entitled to their opinion. Have a good day.

      • akash hirosh

        dude, if you are so interested in genetics and all this, Please go learn it. From a reputed university. Atleast read about it and how it actually works from reputed geneticists. Or if that is too boring for you, read the works of Richard Dawkins so that you atleast understand the basics. I am not saying you are not intelligent, i am saying you are ignorant and poorly educated. many of the base premises that you have started with are completely unscientific figments of imagination. And to see these countless mindless drones applauding and believing what you say without any research or even study from their side makes me feel bad about humanity.

        • Arun

          Totallay agree to hirosh. The weakest link in this explanation is the statement that 8 Rishi were direct descendant of Lord Brahma. Come on that cant be true!!! And if thats the case then what about the Y chromosomes of rest of 5 billion people on earth who are not hindu. Are they descendants of another lord Brahma???
          Crap at its best….

          • itzguru

            of course that cant be true if you take it to be some creation process like God created everybody in one day. We all evolved through the process of evolution of life.

            The theory here is that at the beginning of the first scientific advancements of human civilization in the Indian subcontinent, the scientists of those days observed the weakening of Y chromosome and hence saw a need to preserve healthy breeds of Y, and hence introduced the Gotra system by selecting the best available breeds of Y and assigning them to different seers. It might as well be that, each of these seers are actually the ones who identified that particular breed of Y and not necessarily the possessors of them. Similar to few chemical elements today being named after their discoverers.

            And about remaining 5 billion ppl on earth, it is obvious that either their ancestors were not involved in this process when it started or they were involved in it in the initial days and had their gotras but slowly moved away as the cultures separated over time in history.

            • arun

              after so much of discussion i wonder how nature protects non intelligent life from this. is it like their genes are equipped with counter mechanism to fix genetic disorder due to breeding in closed group? that might be the case. i mean if you see cockroaches have survived for so long they must have such mechanism. may be scientists would have found it by now? all fiction :-)

              • itzguru

                Cockroaches are an exception species, not a rule. Not all species have the ability like cockroaches to survive even nuclear radiation! Finding out how cockroaches do it is different from applying it to humans. We know how birds fly, how bats listen to other frequencies, how lobsters get influenced by Earth’s magnetic field, but that doesnt mean we can bring all these abilities to humans as well. So, how can then we transfer even complex genetic abilities to humans? Its not easy as transfering genes between vegetables and fruits, which itself is a artificial gene pollution humans are causing in nature.

                Also going by your argument, we should not try to treat any genetic diseases today because nature would fix. And the fix of nature might as well be, eradicating weak gene carriers.

                And if we are trying to treat genetic disorders today, then what was wrong in our ancestors trying to save individual pools of y chromosome? Its like we today trying to preserve healthy breeds of cattle or other species which are endangered :)

            • Lisa Bernstein

              amazing.

          • RAVISANKAR

            Dear Arunji
            No theory can correctly explain the origins of Human race.Any theory explaining this through any book is only imagination and has to be a weak link only.No need to get perturbed over that.Hindu mythology gives a fixed term of life for Brahma also and there can be hundreds /thousands of Brahmas spread over the universe and the yugas.
            with regards
            V.Ravisankar

      • Supreeme Bele

        can u write one article on the same topic mr hirosh…….u need to read a lot to write on such topics…..i m pretty sure u havent read the whole article………go and read the makeup and beauty blogs

      • Lisa Bernstein

        akash, you are obviously inbred…

    • itzguru

      Why take the pain to even comment then :)

    • Lisa Bernstein

      actually, it does make sense…..small gene pools and inbreeding cause birth defects. PERIOD. Proven fact. It looks like the Indian ancestors were brilliant and figured out a way to keep the gene pool strong. Its actually amazing. Think about how long ago the gotra was created! truely amazing.

  • manoj

    Excellent Article

  • Bharatiya Bandhu

    I have seen a real life example of a bull that became sexually inactive in a gaushala.

    However it became very active on going to another gaushala. The reason was that in the earlier gaushala, every younger cow was his daughter.

    The bulls were brought from another gaushala – this is a standard practise.

    The logic behind 6 generations / 7 generations can be seen from 1 / 2 raised to power of 7 or 1 / 128 or less than 1% common gene pool.

    Keep up the good work.

    • itzguru

      The more our lives are becoming dependent on technology, the faster are we losing our natural instincts.

    • Rajeev Ranjan

      Sir I am an agriculture grad..Can you explain further how bulls are affected?

  • itzguru

    Lineage is not difficult for women either. It becomes difficult when men’s lineage is forced on women. There is no way of identifying women’s lineage via Y chromosome. Which is why changing the gotra of woman to that of her husband’s is anything but symbolic. Our chromosomes or genes don’t change because we get married, it only impacts the next generations.

    And for women the simple way of identifying their lineage genetically is via mtDNA or the mitochondrial DNA which gets passed down from mother to children over generations after generations. And here the difficulty is for men, because mtDNA propagation stops when there is a son, where as for daughters it continues without interruption. That is because in case of a son, his children will not get his mtDNA but that of his wife’s.

    So we can as well have a matriarchal society revolving around mtDNA! Its all about the choices. History has been mostly about oppressing women, denying it to be “her story”, only “his story”.

    Understood the scenario you mentioned, and yes to maintain gene diversity close relations should not marry, but that needs to be asserted genetically. If only the gotra is matching without any other known nearby relation among them, then it would be difficult to make sure that their genes are indeed related and not diverse.

    Again in the scenario you mentioned, you need to be careful about XnXn, like for instance X5X5, because practically they would be different X chromosomes, something like X51,X52 – one from the father and one from the mother.

    Sorry, didn’t get it about the links you are expecting. What links do you want exactly?

  • itzguru

    Your comment was marked as spam by the commenting system! Have published it.

  • itzguru

    I dont chose any this or that side, there’s only “my” side, even if it means I am the only person in this side :)
    And I am not some elderly person either, even I belong to this same current generation.

    And there is nothing special about knowing things, if we have the time and patience to listen to the nature, then universe will slowly start revealing its secrets to us – we just have to have that passion, to think, to observe, to listen – with patience.

    • Mayank Pandey

      Yes,
      I know that You are not of an Elder Generation :D
      Yeah, its True, its the LAW OF ATTRACTION you can say :)
      The Movie “The Secret (2006)” has such points explained by You in the above Comment :)
      I think You might have watched it, and if not, I think You should do it, it will Brush Up the Skills which You are already good at :)

      • itzguru

        No I havent watched it. Checked in Wikipedia and the theme sounds very interesting, Will watch it when I get an opportunity.

  • parul

    yes this happens bcoz y is not the single chromosome which decide all the characteristics of ababy it defines sex and other comes from 22 other pairs

  • praveen

    Hi every one! all of
    you have a the same confusion about Bhrahama
    ji and their sons sapt rishis. Let me explain something if I can clear your
    confusion about this topic. Let assume Bhrama ji as an scientist who invent the
    human and he make seven pieces of his invention, in that case all the seven children’s
    are called the son of who invent them. But the scientist who invent them only
    know the difference between them. He make a rule how they have to create their
    further system to carry forward. Here is a single mistake of everyone who assume
    Bhramaha ji as an human or as a father, why don’t assume as an scientist. Why
    don’t look everything in a scientific manner, and all Indians know bhramaji as
    an creator who create everything in this nature. That means bhramaji is only
    the power who creates everything.

  • Shubha

    Excellent work on deducing that the gotras were invented to protect the male lineage and the Y chromosome. But I have a question….
    As far as the Indian Hindu system is concerned the gotra system is followed, but what about other religions? Do they have a similar system to protect the Y chromosome? If not, then they would be at a very high risk at producing genetically deformed progeny as they wouldn’t be able to trace their ancestry other than their immediate and extended family.
    Keeping all these views in mind, is it still practical to follow the gotra system after thousands of years have passed since its creation? There would already be a heavy mix up of genes to actually cause genetically deformed offspring….

    • itzguru

      Not sure about other religions, but yes I dont think it is really practical to follow it today, unless and until both the families come from a lineage who have been strictly practicing it all through their generations. Moreover today we have genetic tests that could be done if somebody wants to marry in the same gotra, which could tell if its a safe marriage or not.

  • http://www.facebook.com/himverma2005 Himanshu Verma

    Fantastic article I am impressed with your findings, its really an eye opener for every one, those who blame Hindu systems.

  • genett23

    Human origin is from Africa. Infact everyone in this forum would be somewhat related to you. Check with OP on how closely you both are genetically related.

  • http://www.facebook.com/paul.gill.752861 Paul Gill

    Mahatma the Buddha was not born into a brahmin family. He was born as Siddharatha Gautama and is also known as Shakyamuni. His family was Saka the Scythian and he was son of gaut, got, goth, jute, getae mother. Getae are Scythian tribes.

    • I=Indian

      Shakyamuni refers to the sage of the Shakyas and not Saka. Shakya was an ancient republic of Iron Age India. Buddha belonged to this Shakya clan. Scythians entered India one or two centuries AFTER buddha, not before his time.

      • http://www.facebook.com/paul.gill.752861 Paul Gill

        Relationship is very clear and straightforward, unless the Gautama Rishi was actually a Scythian to begin with, and Buddha was from his lineage.

        • kumar

          There appears to be a great possibility that Gouthama Rishi himself could not have been surprised if called a sythian, though he may himself may not have named as one but had better ornaments to wear proudly!

    • Vivek Waghmare

      Buddha’s varna is ambiguous. Some historians believe he was Kshatriya(warrior varna) while some believe he was Vaishya (trader varna). But surely he wasn’t Brahmin or Scythian.

    • kumar

      Perhaps you are not aware that Gouthama Gothra ? And what makes you believe that in Hindu belief Saka cannot be a gothra acceptable? If one look at Sumerians and related writings, the world view definitely can take a change perhaps.. Brahmins etc are terms that evolved in certain areas which may have a different perspective all-together. I find the entire issues more fluidly made out..may be I need more reading! Buddha need not be a brahmin to be great!

  • http://www.facebook.com/paul.gill.752861 Paul Gill

    Avoiding incestuol sex is more common to wolves than humans. All females born in a pack of wolves are always forced out of that pack to avoid inbreading but humans don’t always follow that rule. May be it was learnt from wolves.

  • http://www.facebook.com/paul.gill.752861 Paul Gill

    All kind of people have gotras, all europeans have it, so it is nothing special if you have it too. Also those europeans with the same surname do not marry each other.

  • Dharmeshwaran

    A girl on getting married changes to the
    gothra of her husband!
    How the marriage can result in this
    change biologically or genetically?

    • itzguru

      It doesn’t, gotra change on marriage is only symbolic for the girl getting married. It is only to signify that the next lineage of the girl will have the gotra of her husband, not of her father. Because for her children, the matching pair of chromosomes come from her husband.

    • Unknown

      simple man.We dont marry cousines.Means we dont marryt dads brothers childrens or dads sisters childrens.Or dads same faimly people..This why gotra system.Same sirname people cant marry same sirnamed people.That is like practicing incest.Which westerners do or used to do now stoped it.But royal family still do.

    • Unknown

      simple man.We dont marry
      cousines.Means we dont marryt dads brothers childrens or dads sisters
      childrens.Or dads same faimly people..This why gotra system.Same sirname
      people cant marry same sirnamed(Which is usually from youre dad i means sir nam) people.IThat is like practicing
      incest.Which westerners do or used to do now stoped it.But royal family
      still do.

    • RAVISANKAR

      25/11/2013
      Dear Dharmeswaran,
      There is no change biologically or genetically as far as the girl is concerned.The Gothra works exclusively through the male lineage only.Gothra of the male can not be changed. Gothra for female is changeable because female lineage is not counted.It is scientifically proved that the male only carries the chromosome that gives a male child.’Go Thrahi” means cattle(cow) pen.Old Aryan economy worked through cattle pen only.Aryans of all the castes working in the same cattle pen belonged to the same Gothra.The ‘Rishi” families which owned the “cattle pens” (hereditary) had all the workers in the cattle pen in a kind of bondage that was religious,social as well as military.Marriages between “Gothras” were generally allowed/encouraged.The girl after marriage goes to join the cattle pen in which the husband worked and lived and became a part of the community.Gothra of the Girl can be changed through “adoption” as daughter by a male member of another gothra.
      with regards
      Ravisankar

  • Neelam Rana

    I could not find some solid reason for you to change your mind in last paragraph. It is widespread understanding that Vedic knowledge prevails from creation to annihiliation,  At present we are just halfway through this creation. So how can we just let go the vedic injunctions?

    After giving all the solid pro gotra reasons, all of a sudden you changed your mind. There must be some reason, which I would really like to know.

    Neelam Rana

    • itzguru

      OK, the last paragraph focuses on “so what next”.
      No doubt, the Gotra system was a scientifically laid out program to preserve lineage history of the Y chromosome. But for quite long time this system has been polluted by same gotra marriages and I dont see any point in forcing it today without any further scientific analysis and segregation of lineages, especially given the immense technological capabilities we have at our disposal.

      And an additional reason for caution in the last paragraph is the “misuse” of this system by certain sections of the society in using this as a mask to forward their own egos and selfish purposes, and unnecessary harassing of young couples.

      • Mayank Pandey

        Yes, agreed buddy.
        Its really Sad that the GREAT THINGS being explained in the VEDAS have been BRUISED SOOO BADLY and CHANGED ACCORDING TO THE NEEDS OF THE POLITICIANS AND SOCIETY SOOO HARSHLY, that it feels a SHAME to be a PART of the INDIANS (Not the Country India BUT its People “Indians”) who couldn’t Respect the Vedic Knowledge and used it for their Demonic needs

  • http://memanya.blogspot.in/?zx=d44a08fe12b16b69 Manya

    I do not understand why the author has written this article – in favor or against the custom of not allowing same Gotra marriages? But since today everyone is free to decide what they want and are ready to take the responsibility of their actions….so we should allow them to do what they want to do and we should not force it on them.

    • itzguru

      Its not about in favor or against… taking sides like this usually make us limited by our personal bias. This is an attempt to present things as is, how it was in the past, and how relevant it is today, and why a scientific system introduced in the past should not be allowed to be misused by vested interests today to forward their own agendas.

      • Umesh Raichur

        Taking sides is an inevitable byproduct of a process called pursuit of truth. We don’t stop or limit the process fearing its byproduct.

        • itzguru

          If taking sides means you are adamant on what you think is right, and are not ready to accept the possibility of the other side being right, not open to discussions, then that is not correct is what I mean here.

          For I have jumped from one side to other in the past when I realized that what I thought to be right earlier was wrong.

  • Rahul

    Wow amazing gotra system..for thousands of years it has helped in forming a breed of humans in india. 

  • pavankumar

    I have never read an article which is more informative, scientific, logical and theory wise perfect.

    Its really great to see a person doing so much research on the subject ..

    thank you very much

  • Mandar Mahuli

    When we talk about science it should be applicale to all Human beings,

    if you consider Muslims they marry there cousins only…. how its allowd or how it works?

  • Manoj Kulkarni

    Nice Explanation with great description, thanks for sharing and keep sharing ji…….

  • Ravisankar

    The word Gotra is formed from the two Sanskrit words Gau (meaning Cow) and Trahi (meaning Shed).
    Note that the English word Cow is a derived word of the Sanskrit word Gau with the same meaning Gau.
    I am happy that another scholar is confirming that GOTHRA=GAU+TRAHI=COW SHED.
    Other observations are debatable.All the persons(of different castes–lineage–work allocation) working and belonging to the same cow shed staying and living in one area under the ownership of one Rishi belonged to the same Gothra.That is why Gothra system is there in all the castes all over India.Gothra has nothing to do with chromosomes or the lineage.If the Rishi impregnated every female in the cow shed then all the new born members will be of his lineage with his chromosomes.This is totally absurd.Marriage within  the same cow shed  was prohibited simply as an office rule that employees of the same office should not marry.Marriage between gothras was encouraged to increase the bonds between various aryan cow sheds.Gothra system has no meaning in the modern age.If a boy and a girl of the same gothra want to marry there should be no bar for the same.They are not siblings by any stretch of imagination.If the girl is adopted by a person with another gothra then the gothra of the girl is changed instantly.She can marry any person belonging to her previous gothra.This is an easy and legal way to get out of this madness of gothra taboo for the marriages within the gothra.Gothra is unique to the Aryans who are there now all over India including Tamilnadu.Non-Aryan clans in other parts of the world do not have any gothras.Adam and eve are imaginary charectors.So is the thinking that all the Rishis fathered the entire population of this world.
    Gothras have no relevance to society now especially to bar marriages.
     

    • parul

      this is simply nonsense spoiling the lineage ,it is like animals even they dont mate like this .

  • http://www.facebook.com/neelakantan.iyer1 Neelakantan Iyer

     extremely true :)

  • Guest

    You say the Saptharishishis (7 rishis) are 8 in number. Can you explain?

    • http://www.facebook.com/neelakantan.iyer1 Neelakantan Iyer

       there are the 7 saptarishis and bharadwaja rishi

  • Gita_hari

    If the Saptarishis are direct descendants of Brahma, they all have the same Y chromosome and are siblings. fail to understand how they can be different gotras based on chromosome.

    • I=Indian

      Descendants need not mean biological children. Nobody knows for sure how it was done. But it is generally said that they were created by Brahma.

    • Mayank Pandey

      Very Easy dear Friend.
      The Saptarishis were NOT born from the BODY of BRAHMA….

      THEY WERE BORN FROM THE ****MIND**** of the BRAHMA, ie they were the MANASA-PUTRA (Child created from Mind) of BRAHMA.

      Anything born out of the Body has the Characters of the Body inherited through the Chromosomes, but if something is created just by Imagination (by mind in this case) it is nowhere related to the Blood of the Parent and in NO WAYS has the applied concept of Inheritance on them.

      BRAHMA through his MIND while creating these 7 Rishis purposely gave different tendencies to each of these Rishis (through their Genetical Characters) or else if all the 7 would have had the Same Capability then it would have been no use creating 7 Rishis and ONLY 1 Rishi would have been satisfying enough to create the World,

      Its because of these 7 Rishis with 7 different kinds of Genetical Characters created by the MIND of BRAHMA which created the Human Beings of different Races and Different Kinds.

      JAI SHRI KRISHNA :)

      • Mahesh

        Absolutely right

  • Krishna Shastry

    Read the article and
    several of the initial comments/replies. Good work. Here is my own conclusion
    (i.e. what I think)

     

    1) I don’t think
    Gothra system by itself has contributed towards many social ill. However, having
    no provision for easy identification of 6 generation female lineage is a big
    flaw.

     

    2) Has gothra system
    has promoted patriarchal system more than normal and caused misery to women?
    Not sure, need to think.

     

    3) Is a matriarchal
    gothra system better than patriarchal gothra system? Or is a combination of
    both better than either of them? Is it even practical? Experts have to pitch in
    here.

     

    4) The 5% theory is
    fantastic, however is it a standard 5%? Or is it anywhere in the entire
    chromosome? Does Y really dominate X in that 5%? Again, experts have to answer.

     

    5) Overall, in today’s
    world and in future a genetic matching between male and female (plus family
    members) might prove to be key for producing healthy kids; however will such a
    thing kill or wage war against concepts such as love? Only time will tell.
    Maybe balance is somewhere in between.

     

    Thanks for a thought
    provoking article.

  • janhavi v rao

    vikram,
    i am happy that you have taken keen interest in the gothra system and have done research in this field and confirmed the wisdom of our ancestors!

  • SV

    Biologists Debunk the ‘Rotting’ Y Chromosome Theory, Men Will Still Existhttp://www.medicaldaily.com/news/20120222/9163/y-chromosome-chromosome-theory-men-extinct-monkey-x-chromosome-biology.htm

  • Csswarrier

    Pray who decided on 8 gothras ? Why 8 ? Why not 9 or 18 or 7 or any number ? What about the people before the grouping ? Don’t they belong to any group ? Only males have Y chromosome ; but why ? 
    How does this connect with the BIBLE version of ADAM & EVE ? Everyone ultimately brlong to one father-mother pair

  • Pratap68

    Dear Guru ji, please clarify my doubt.

    If all the Saptarishis are created by god Brahma(the creator), they are siblings because they are having same chromosome . so nobody should marry after?

    Is there any discussion of Gotras eigther in Ramayana or Bahabharata the great epics.if it is please discuss.

    • s.neelakantan

       The genealogy of Vaivasvata Manu

      According to the Puranas, the genealogy of the 7th Manu, Vaivasvata is as follows:

      BrahmaMarichi, one of the 10 Prajapatis created by Brahma.Kashyapa, son of Marichi and Kala. Kashyapa is regarded as the father of humanity.Vivasvan or Surya, son of Kashyapa and Aditi.Vaivasvata Manu, originally Satyavrata, son of Vivasvan and Saṃjñā.Ikshvaku,
      Nabhaga, Narishyanta, Karusha, Prishadhra, Dhrishta, Sharyati, Pramshu
      and Nabhanedishta were the nine sons and Ila was the only daughter of
      Vaivasvata Manu.here ikshvaku was the starting king of the suryavanshis

    • http://www.facebook.com/neelakantan.iyer1 Neelakantan Iyer

      the saptarishis are mind born sons of brahma that is, those created through the thoughts(ICCHA SHAKTI) of brahma. the fact that our thoughts can do such things can be bewildering but these topics are studied in detail in branch of science called NOETIC SCIENCE. human body in the basic levels are created out of simple atomic elements like nitrogen oxygen carbon and phosphorus. these atoms according to quantum physics have two fundamental properties i.e. mass and energy. the energy is what gives a defined structure to the mass of these atoms by making them interact with each other. thus people with extreme supernatural capabilties who have realised the whole potential of a human body can create anything out of thin air by making the atoms of any elements to interact with each other as required. thus when the sapta rishis were created,they were created out of brahma’s different body parts with different virtues and prowess accordingly.
      hence each possessed different genetic origin and hence cannot be called as biological brothers  but still as u mentioned they are the MIND BORN sons of brahma. for example daksha was 1 of the 10 prajapatis and he was formed out of brahma’s thumb and hence the name.

    • http://www.facebook.com/neelakantan.iyer1 Neelakantan Iyer

      the sapta rishis are the mind born sons of lord brahma i.e. they were not the biological sons of brahma but created out of his ICCHA SHAKTI .to xplain it in plain english we can say they were created as a result of his thought process. such an explanation might seem far fetched even fictitious but this can be proved through a branch of science recently introduced and studied called as NOETIC SCIENCE. this branch was specifically introduced to study practical effects of phenomenas such as the ICCHA SHAKTI, string theory and their relation with quantum physics. many people who have completely realised the power of human body and its coordination with brain can summon various atoms of any elements and make them interact with each other in order to create any object out of thin air. such objects are held together just because of the power of the creator’s thought’s energy which exerts a certain vibration. just similarly to the object the human body is also comprisd of basic elements like nitrogen,oxygen,carbon,phosphorus which form the dna structure of any human. thus when Brahma created the 7rishis he created each of them from each part of his body giving them each an unique dna structure and bestowed them with unique characteristics and powers. so they do not become biological sons of Brahma but mind born sons.  
       the power of ICCHA SHAKTI can also xplained through phenomena of hypnosis, telepathy etc. in both these cases the person creates a vibration of different wavelength which might match with wavelengths of the vibrations of the person who is to be hypnotised. then the hypnotised one shal act according to the thoughts of the hypnotiser. same way in telepathy two persons thoughts which have same frequency can interact with each other without talking to each other. these phenomenas are applied even in some martial arts like kung fu, kalaripaayattu etc.

      • parul

        beautifully explained ….keep on working and sharing knowledge, if this could help in stopping the downfall of our society,,,,,,

  • Sudharanimamidala

    Good article

  • Syam5888

    One doubt: as u said that those seven prajapitas were the direct descendants of the Brahma and hence represent the Y chromosomes in its purest form. Now since they are all the descendants of the same father, they are all siblings, aren’t they? Then how is the entire thing justified here?

    • ashi srk

      thats because dey were nt brothers as in genetically.. dey were wish born brothers.. :P

      • http://www.facebook.com/paul.gill.752861 Paul Gill

        Are all these gotras found among europeans too? Brahmins ydna is not different than other indians or europeans as I understand it, how come? And again human dna is 98.5% same as chimpanzee dna, did god made humans using mostly chimpanzee egg and sperm? Gotra means cowshed, not a sound connection at all.

        • I=Indian

          Gotra applies to every human. Nobody denied gotra to any European or other Indians. FYI most non Brahmin Indians also know their gotra very well. Now for others, Europeans or otherwise, if they had preserved their gotra information through generations after generations, then they would have known it as well.

          • Balasubramanian S

            I agree with your point. Gothra and Abhivaadhaye are applicable for everyone. In South India even now we can see many non Brahmin wear punal as per their family tradition. Human race in India was categorized as Brahmanas, Kshaktriyas, Vaishyas and Shudras based on Purusha Sukta. All the four categories were having Gothra system and were also having the custom of Punal wearing as per their family tradition. These concepts were then changed and confused later because of some people who misguided the people and created inferiority and superiority concept into the human race. Before that people were just categorized based on the work they do and the way they live. All the category of people wear Punal as per their family custom and learn Vedas. The only difference was that, people without Punal were not allowed to learn vedas. Similarly Sanyasa concept was also wonderful in olden days. Any person from these four categories who leaves all human bonds and go in search of god were called Sanyasis. Even today we can see many pusari in South Indian temples who wear punal and involve themselves in the service to god. People from categories like Thevars, Chettiyars, Aasaari etc in South India do different Jobs like trade, wood works etc but they still hold their family customs and wear Punal. They are still following their family Gothra system.

    • jalwan

      by birth none is brahmin/brahman. one who knows self/soul/atman/ brahman is a brahman. suka failed to be brahman untill came to jannak for self realization ie to be brahman others calling themselves as brahman r cheats walking on baishakhi of false caste status which killed the merit n destroyed the developments. who was father of vasisht f/o shakti f’/o parasar f/o vyas f/o pandu /indra f/o arjuna ? what gotra should arjuna/kauntkeya had ? man is known by his deeds/ character. who is father of satyakama, kauntkeya, radheya, kartikeya, drona,kirpa etc n gotra ?

  • AI

    Who was Manu if humans emerged from the Prajapatis? Was Manu not the son of Brahma and the progenitor of humans? Why no Manu Gotra?

    • s.neelakantan

       The genealogy of Vaivasvata Manu

      According to the Puranas, the genealogy of the 7th Manu, Vaivasvata is as follows:

      brahmamarichi, one of the 10 prajapatis created by Brahma.kashyapa, son of Marichi and kala. Kashyapa is regarded as the father of humanity.vivasvan or surya, son of Kashyapa and Aditi.vaivasvata manu, originally satyavrata, son of Vivasvan and Saṃjñā.ikshvaku,
      Nabhaga, Narishyanta, Karusha, Prishadhra, Dhrishta, Sharyati, Pramshu
      and Nabhanedishta were the nine sons and Ila was the only daughter of
      Vaivasvata Manu.[2]

  • Cognizant

    Clueless – after seeing your post, I felt like a bit numb at your one stand argument; I still see women in our country savoring the best of the bets. Anyway, in your reference, pls understand the way Gita was explained – Dont use your half-knowledge. It was a painful way you explained.. (Heck??!!) Having a good father who reads so much of religious texts, should’ve given you a basic funda abt what a Man is in those text mean- they are applicable for humans (male/female) but referred to a Man only!!. By far, you seem more of a feminist and arguing on selective words in those books. Please read them, understand them! Manusmriti is not a Gita and in no way related to the Hinduism (nor do we follow – just like you understood, ppl use selective texts and make the women abide them) As told well above, Hinduism is the only religion where women are worshiped. Don’t compare Hinduism with the wrong doings in the society. Nobody teaches to kill, it depends upon the environment the individual was born. No one is a born sinner but the ppl around makes. We have our home-deity whom we offer prayers. Hinduism is not a religion, its the way of life. It doesnt need followers, its understood the way you respect nature. We offer prayers to trees/stones/everything – there is lots of spirituality in that (Only a spiritual enthusiast would be knowing) we do namaskar to the person we meet a person its all Spiritual, The photos we offer our prayer to seems to be comic to the west (if you talk spiritual it gives a different sense – eg – take the body color of Lord Shiva –  Gray – what is the color ash? Gray – its the tatva.. photos are not comics.. they are always spiritual) what you see is not what it is meant to be (sthula/sukhshma)! Good and bad are human perceptions what is good to me is not to another – a terrorist thinks he is doing good, but for the world he is not. Hinduism is not complex, its just the way you look at it.

    Clueless – do you know y women are thought to b divine, they are the ones who conceive and make this world going! There is no man/woman its all about your soul – that is what Gita speaks about. “Don’t think you are doing it, I’m making you do it (Karta and Karma is all Him)!! ” Have you observed the picture of Lord Krishna driving Arjuna? It is spiritual! That means I am driving you, you need not worry and there would be 5 horses which are your senses that are controlled.. Arjuna is the soul… 

    You made me cry! Definitely you are clueless!

  • Arunopto

    I thoroughly enjoyed the flow and the apt scientific reasoning or linking. Thanks for shedding some light on an age-old custom. 

  • Mohan R

    Very much impressed on the reasoning and great insight. Worth reading.

  • Sanket

    If it comes to the day when the only way to reproduce would be; by the means of injecting nuclei from one female to another I’d be happy to not live :P .. but on a serious note if this is going to happen over a few million years in future I am sure our brainiacs will find a way to artificially preserve, nurture and use the Y chromosome. So lets currently focus on the imminent issue and save the female child. 

  • Jayeshpatel India

    Hi Guru,

    Its really good to read someone who is talking complete sense. I have been doing research from last 15 years on various ancient Indian standing philosophies, science and lifestyle system. I have lived and travelled most of the world. It’s really nice to read such an extensive logically maping of the gotra system. good job !

  • Guest

    Interesting article… however, mitochondiral genes can be used to trace the maternal lineage… does this mean that the vedic ancestors were not aware of the mitochondrian??

  • Kishlayjha

    one of the best and factual article I have ever read. #hatts off

  • Kaber Vasuki

    Ah. I didn’t read the last section before I commented. I apologize. :)

  • Kaber Vasuki

    I agree with Shanshnk0289. 
    You’re weaving a narrative of epic proportions between two completely unrelated things.. It’s an excellent sci-fi premise that our munnis knew about genetics, but I doubt they did. There is not evidence to suggest that the gothra system grew out of genetics or the other way round.How are you so sure that the line is still unbroken today?Simplest question. Do you have any evidence that the munnis knew about the gothras? Yes? Show us. No? Then your theory is wrong.

    Although I appreciate your interest in understanding our culture and understand your quest for a more modern Indian identity, I believe that this rhetorical glorification of the ancient systems is more hindsight masala than anything else. 

    Even if it is true that the gothras were founded on scientific principles, there is no reason whatsoever to be proud of it. The munnis might have been a smart generation of Indians. But clearly, we have issues in this country that cannot be resolved by being proud of our heritage. 

    Good writing. Terrible reasoning. 

    • Freakyleo99

      our munis not only knew about genetics they also knew abt the essence of living things- atom, and metallurgy as itzguru has mentioned and many things more. you just refuse to admit everything based upon religion out of modern thinking. but truly it has itself spoken now.yes, now noone can research the gotras, the munis and the family lineage, but it truly makes sense when i have compared it to the real life. most of things which hindu religion says has a scientific reasoning. many have been validated and vouched for. and many are yet to be revealed. so its all a matter of faith. this article just proves that few rules are followed for the well being of the human kind. its upto you to follow it or not.

  • Shashnk0289

    Cause-Effect Fallacy. Just because two incidents co-exist it does not necessarily mean one is caused by another. There is no possible way you can claim that ancient rishis knew about chromosomes, because even modern science had to wait for the development of very high power telescopes to even notice their presence. If you would have used the terms alleles (used by Mendel, to define hereditary properties), it could have made more sense.
    Also if you are quoting Genetics and Evolutionary Biology, you would be interested to know that human lineage is traced to common single ancestor who lived in Africa, so we are all cousins anyhow. You can not take half of the facts and leave others to justify your philosphies

    • Dixitkumar

      mr shashank0289

      for that matter our rishis named the planets long long ago your so called advanced society did re-invent with telescopes what was already invented by ancients. Remember, however advance the SCIENCE may progress it must learn to acknowledge and appreciate what was done by ancients. That will be in true spirit of the SCIENCE.

    • Cognizant

      Shashnk0289, ”
      because even modern science had to wait for the development of very high power telescopes to even notice their presence”? you think our ancestors used these to calculate the speed of the earth? or the value of Zero? And you think there never existed Science without these equipment’s? don’t get carried away by the technology and the jargons, I’m not here to justify this theory but appreciate the analysis, I dont knw if you are aware of this saying, if science stops reasoning, religion starts answering.

  • http://www.facebook.com/anishink Arun Prakash

    awesome articke,..

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Ramnath-Kaliaperumal/100000310327464 Ramnath Kaliaperumal

    “marriage of a Son with Mother’s Sister’s Daughter” -> Isn’t she a Sister to that Boy? Why would one even think of marrying these two?

    And one more thing.  The Rishi’s might had a good intention while creating this Gotra system.  But I know many families (Brahmin) in my neighborhood with more than 5 children.  The first 4 will be girls and a boy at last.  In a country with a billion plus population, I think it is not worth to protect the male lineage (or Y chromosome) this way.

    Also, If they descend directly from the creator, Brahma could have told them the way to give birth to an XY or XX as one wants.  No offense but If the Rishis foresaw the Y chromosome’s weakness, they should have foreseen the population problem as well. :)

    Anyways, I really liked the way you have written this article.  It was a good read.

    • K.Subba Ramaiah

      The imbalance in the male female population has come due to the change in our thinking pattern, our style of living etc. he rigid discipline with which our Rishis as well as Rishikas, I mean the females who reached high stage with a life of more co operation ad the children of their liking. For ordinary or common folk they could conduct ishtis or rituals to get male or female child of their liking. There were cases where such ishtis were conducted few dcades back especially if one reds the life of Shri E. Krishnamacharya, onecould get the cases. The materialistic thinking and missing the traits of discipline leads these experiments to failure finally leading to doubt. Most problems we face originated from our own mistakes and we can advice more mistakes as remedy.
      K.Subba Ramaiah

  • Vibhuti Kumar

    just a single line to express my comment……..”aaawwwwwsommmmee……. superrbbbbbbb

  • S.Ramamurthy

    “Now I understand why Hinduism and its Vedic core regard Mother Goddess or female divinity to be more powerful than all male divinity put together” Excellent statement. This is very understandable.

  • Umns1726

    Guruji,
    Excellent information. I just searcing about my gotra. I found your article. Thanks again.
    My father told me about our Gotra. According to him our gotra “VANMOSIA” but when i went our kuldevi temple last year (Jobner, near Jaipur) in INDIA, priest says there is no ”VANMOSIA” gotra only VANASIA is exist.
    Still I am searching the answer which is the correct VANMOSIA or VANASIA. Help me out if possible.  umesh kumar saini, Angola

    • Anonymous

      Sorry I havent heard of this Gotra name, your kuldevi temple would be the best place and correct place. And if they say it is Vanasia, then it should be correct because your Gotra will be only one of the Gotras of your Kuldevi temple.

  • http://www.facebook.com/anand.mallaya Anand Mallaya

    Very good article and unbiased interpretation of scientific facts!

  • Anony

    Excellent Read ! But if all lineages came from SaptaRishis who were apparently male, from where came the first female? Just curious!

    • Anonymous

      The Sapta Rishi lineage and Gotra is only about males, its only said that all “male” lineages came from these ancient Rishis. So probably all female lineages came from the wives of these Rishis.

  • Anonymous

    Yes, the points you mentioned are very valid and no society which considers itself to be civilized should behave so. But to say that it is because of Hinduism is wrong. You cannot say religion is the cause for the behavior of a few. Its not as if only the followers of some specific religious text or institution are behaving like this. It is pure male dominance mentality and religion has nothing to do with it.

    And its not as if household should NOT be taken care by women. If both men and women dont take care of their homes then whose house is it? And who looks after it? It should be taken care by both with equal responsibility, after all it belongs to both.

    Manusmriti was written and so was Gita. But how many people can you show me who say they follow Manusmriti? I am sure most of those men who have this wrong attitude towards women have not even heard of Manusmriti. But that is not the case with Gita. Gita is one of the finest works on human psychology. You cant call a work sexist just because it refers to he. In that way almost all texts on this planet become sexist because they all refer to a person as ‘he’ and not ‘he/she’ :)

    Where is cherry picking here. Manusmriti is NEVER used as an authority anywhere. Did you ever hear anybody worshipping it the way they worship vedas or Gita? I mean how many prints of it exist really?

    And regarding divinity, its not as if only women are attributed divinity. Unlike other religions which show God as only Male, Hinduism has both male and female Gods, ie it is NOT male dominated in this sense. But that does mean it is as if trying to pacify women. Come on. Even animals are considered divine be it cows, snakes, birds etc. Even nature is considered to be divine – planets, sun, rivers, mountains. So in Hinduism the entire universe is filled with divinity and that includes women.

    And regarding most kind, sacrificing etc it is a FACT. A father can never care for his children the way a mother cares. Do yo disagree on this? No father can show the affection shown by a mother to the child. A mother will go all out of her way to protect her children. This is the nature of a mother. And this is not just limited to humans. Even in animal kingdom it is the mother who takes best care of her young ones. So you cant call stating the obvious as giving some special treatment.

    Probably you might like this article which I wrote a couple of years back on a Women’s day http://www.hitxp.com/articles/culture/happy-womens-day/

  • Anonymous

    Its not about just staying married. I mean, I have witnessed numerous arranged marriages, and can say with conviction that the couple are really happy. And have also seen failed arranged marriages, but their ratio is very less. And in love marriages I have seen more failures than successes. This is from my personal experience.

    You have a very wrong idea of arranged marriages. It is not as if somebody forces them to get married to the other. Its not as if you have to marry the first girl or boy your family finds. There are multiple rejections here too till both the boy and girl finally agree. Except that families are involved here. The maturity of parents and the experience of elders is involved.

    Because in arranged marriages it is not just the marriage between a boy and a girl. But also creation of a new relation between two families. And hence the family involvement.

    Having said that, its again people dependent, and I have also seen cases where parent’s ego, or parent’s lust for money forces a wrong choice. But then they are not the rule, only exceptions. No parent would really like to get their children married to somebody whom they dont like.

    So its not as if, only love marriage is good or arranged marriage. Its personal. If a boy or a girl finds a perfect match beforehand, then they go for love marriage, else there will be an arranged one. But how perfect/successful is that, be it arranged or love, depends on the maturity of the stake holders involved. In case of love marriages, it depends on the maturity of the couple. In case of arranged marriages, it depends on the maturity of both the couple and the experience and maturity of their families.

    Regarding divorces, earlier divorces were rare because women were financially dependent on men. But today women are as financially independent as men, so if the marriage is a failure, divorces do take place, and this happens even in case of arranged marriages.

    What is most important is for the parents to ensure that their daughters get good education and have financial independence in life. And be it love or arranged, the parents should give their opinion objectively, not allowing their egos or personal ambitions influence their opinion.

    • clueless

      I could say the exact opposite from my experience…that I have seen lot of arranged marriages that are not working out at all and the couple are staying together for the sake of kids, society etc while I have seen a lot of love marriages that work beautifully. I am not against arranged marriages. But I am definitely against the notion that because it is a love marriage, it has more chances of failing. 

      If anything the elders in our society deliberately make it more harder for love marriages to work as they are biased against it from the beginning. They do not make an effort to know or understand the new member of the family and go out of their way to generate misunderstandings between the couple. Infact a lot of love marriages that I did see break are because of the parents, not the couple themselves.

      • Anonymous

        Well my experience tells otherwise. But having said that, it is not love marriages fail because just because they are love. As I said, if both the boy and girl are mature enough to find the right partner, love marriage will definitely succeed, but in many cases I have seen- the boy and girl were not mature enough to select the right partner. And this happens because, during love marriages both the boy and girl usually try to show only their positive sides to each other. And issues start cropping up after marriage when they come to know about the negative sides or the sides which they dont like or didnt know about.

        Yes, it is true that elders also bring their personal ego in case of love marriages. But such elders cause it even in case of arranged marriages, where they try to maintain their dominance on their children even after they getting married. So in cases of such elders, the couple remain happier (irrespective of love or arranged) if they stayed away from their parents and lived on their own.

  • Divyaramesh4

    Hi Guru ,

    Awesome finding regarding the gotras.My question is how do you identify whether a person is brahmin or not? Is it based on gotras only…. Is it that then these 8 gotras are found only amomg brahmins..

    • Anonymous

      Gotras can be used to identify the male lineage of the Rishi a person belongs to provided his entire lineage has maintained the original gotra reference.

      However its not necessary that these Gotras should be found only among Brahmins because there may have been numerous instances in history where men of a particular gotra got married to non-Brahmins and in such cases the gotra gets passed down in their lineages too.

      • Manoj K. Thakur

        You are partially right but the fact is that Brahmins are called Dwij (i.e. a person who had his second birth within the same life). By birth every human being who so ever it might be (descendants of any RISHI) is Shudra. It was only his Karma that decided his caste and not his parents. A brahmin’s son could be Shudra and also a shudra’s son could be brahmin. But whosoever had the courage to go through the hardships of adopting and maintaining The Sacred Thread (Upnayan Sanskara) and follow its strictures that was called for was revered as Brahmin and rest of the sons or descendants of same Rishi was distributed among other Varnas or castes depending upon his Karma and natural instinct. No body was forced to lead any life or lifestyle in perticular. Hence, all varnas will find their lineage to the same seven Rishis. 

  • Umesh Raichur

    Great work Guru. Am thoroughly impressed. No journey is as enthralling, satisfying & meaningful as the one taken in pursuit of truth. I see a budding  torch-bearer in you.

    Thanks!
    Umesh Raichur

    • Anonymous

      Thanks Umesh :)

  • Anonymous

    That is still a mystery I guess because the vedic texts talk about manvantaras and yuga cycles which are on the same time scale as that of universal time scale and talk about a new human lineage starting affresh after every cycle of destruction – the manvantaras

    So till we are able to relate these two phenomenon of modern scientific time scale based on evolutionary ages and the manvantara type time scale, these two streams of thoughts about human evolutionary history will remain different.

  • Vgireddy

    So, do we have the real gotra/pravara chain now adays ? how can we trace out our acesters ?

    • Anonymous

      It definitely should be there in the genes of those families who have been following the system religiously throughout history

  • Vgireddy

    Guru,

    One popular Religion followers marry their cousins. So, can we say that system has a biggest basic flaw ?

  • Santa

    Wow. amazing article. was looking for this for quite sometime. Thats the beauty of our Sanathana Dharmam, Everything is there and established by our highly evolved Rishis. All we need to follow is to follow it blindly, which if we do, is an act of superstition. I like the way you relate our sanathana dharmam and genetics and your presentation. Excellent articulation of facts and examples. will follow your articles from now on.

    • Santa

      Want to say that the world say it is superstition but a lot of science into it. so why ask the question “why” to our vedic system. take it as such and follow blindly. should be proud to say that na?

      • Anonymous

        Well, I guess the strength of vedic culture is its flexibility and the absence of any rigid religious rules which has created such a vast diversity in this country. Let the ancient culture undergo the tests of modern science and time will prove the truth. If in the past 3-4 centuries man could achieve so much in science and technology, there should definitely be some substance in the culture of a civilization that spanned thousands of years.

    • Anonymous

      What is really missing is the relating of ancient vedic/sanskrit terminologies and modern english/scientific terminologies. Once we are able to establish these links successfully, I guess the ancient texts would be as appealing as or even more appealing than the modern scientific texts.

    • Nandinigm

      It is to be noted that not all traditions have a medical reason, some
      could have had social reasons. For instance, keeping wealth or knowledge
      within a particular subsect of the people. So it’s better not to
      blindly follow superstition and wait till a reason is scientifically
      proved. The ancient people may have been scientifically advanced, but
      their biggest flaw was in propagating the knowledge through
      superstitions rather than proper documentation. And in the interest of
      the scientific spirit, we should not follow anything that we cannot
      logically justify.

      • Anonymous

        Well, there is extensive documentation by the ancients of both their history as well as the science and spiritual knowledge they had – except that most of it is in languages like Sanskrit which most people today do not understand. You can find thise wealth of information by reading books by experts like David Frawley and Stephen Knapp.

  • Rohit

    Good findings, but as I see it, this is only true for the patriarchal system. People belonging to the same gotra also belong to the same caste in the Hindu social system. But there is a notable exception among matrilineal Tulu/Malayalee speakers where the lineages are the same across the castes.

  • Rsubramanian

    A very nice analysis and an enlightning one . Everyone should know this.

  • Cheenu8962

    Yes, i agree with the system to bring about an social order, based on certain assumptions to build a genetically healthy population. But i fail to understand , how apparently with out having any such system, other nations or races or culture survived, moreover, even in India, am sure that this Gotra system is followed only by the Brahmins and rest of the people( in Tamilnadu, identify themselves as either Shiva Gothra or Vishnu Gothra.) blissfully not aware of the same yet able to preserve the Y chromosome. 

    The scientific facts given here are subjective and needs lot of explanation

    • Kulnayan

      now my mind is compelling me to think that, this preserving of gothra system might be related to vishnu avtara.. as i have asked earlier…
      i feel there is a possibility here that the purest of y chromosome carried through all these lineages will be grown as vishnu avtara, who will be godlike and hence though human different than human… hence probably this gotra system,,,, i know this is just a thought :)

    • Anonymous

      What is called Gotra system in India is more complex set of rules, and the simplified version of this is followed in almost all societies in cluding western society – which is called marriage between first cousins – and is generally not preferred. Even in animal we have examples of such genetic instincts where parents usually drive away their young after some time to prevent possible inbreeding or near relational breeding when the young grow up.

  • Ganpatbakhle

    Very Good and informative article. But the question is how the originakl Rishis gor their X and Y chromozones? What was the state of things before the Gotra system started? 

    • Anonymous

      The ancient texts say that the root Rishis of the Gotra system were the first humans too.

  • Ponderer

    Is there a reason why Hindu Religion recommends the girl to be younger to the boy ?

    • Anonymous

      I guess this is a practice in all patriarchal societies more than a religious rule, and the reason probably is that the male being the primary bread winner of the family needed more time to complete his education or skill learning and get into work and start earning enough to have his family. So this meant that boys cannot go for marriage at an early age compared to girls.

  • Prasanna

    This is a wealth of information. I will preserve it for further reading. Thanks for sharing this great work. I can see the amount of hard work it has taken in creating this article

    I wish I see excellent articles like this in the future

    • Anonymous

      You are welcome Prasanna, thanks for your comments.

  • Suchin Kerlapur

    how does it work among animals? example dogs.

    • Anonymous

      In animals this has one of the two effects – one is it leads to extinction of that species in that eco system due to disorders in offsprings, and the second is that it will create an isolated gene pool where all members of the species share the same genetic pool ie reduced genetic diversity because of inbreeding, and such a population is always vulnerable to changes in environment like a new virus attack. That is because all members of the population have similar immune system as they come from the same genetic pool, and a new virus can for instance wipe out an entire such species.

      See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inbreeding
      Unlike in humans – in animals this is the reason you see the number of offsprings are more, because most do not survive beyond the first year! This may also be the reason why when one male takes over another group in animal kingdom, it kills all existing babies in the group, so that it can imprint its own genetic variation and increase gene diversity making the offsprings of the group genetically more stronger.

      And in many other animals, like for instance horses, parents drive out their young after sometime, probably to prevent possible inbreeding, and such species are generally more stronger.

  • Suchin Kerlapur

    Guru. my question on this is. In ancient times, there must have been same gotra marriages too without which they wouldnt not have found the genetic disorders. Thats my guess. So was it that the Gotra system already knew about disorder or was it experimented?

    • Anonymous

      Not sure about that, didnt find mention of any specific related incidents.

  • Balakrisnan

     Superb revelations and inspiring article enhancing knowledge and I fully agree with Shwtha’s comment that there is surely a scientific reason for relegious boundary in Hinduism No wonder it is not arelegion but Way of Life. Long Livenan, Hinduism, Balakrishnan,Air India(retd) mumbai 

    • Anonymous

      Very true, during the vedic period there were no other religions, in fact there was no concept like religion at all, religion is a western term for abrahamic religions, and Hinduism which is actually a way of life of the ancient Sanathana culture was given a narrow definition of being a religion. Infact Hinduism is a Sanathana Dharma, and in English or in any other western languages there is no actual parallel word for Dharma. To explain the meaning of Dharma in English one needs to write a large essay!

  • Prateek_naughty

     my sis wants to marriage in same gotra…..she`z a doctor n boy too is a doctor….because of same feild they r intrested for a marriage….they r avoiding the gotra system…is this correct or what should i do???i need ur help suggest me sir…..??

    • Anonymous

      Since both of them are of legal age and are also doctors, nobody should object to their marriage if they both are fine with it. As stated in the last paragraph of this article, we have come thousands of years away from the original Gotra system and it may not even be relevant today in case of distantly related or unrelated families of boy and girl. So Gotra system should NOT be used in deciding any marriage especially when both the boy and girl have agreed to get married.

  • Mohanvarkhedkar

     The Last Paragraph “Should Gotra system be used to decide the marriages” and in particular “Marriage is finally more of a bond between two souls rather than two bodies, so its nobody’s business to interfere in a marriage where the boy and girl are above minimal legal age required for marriage and are marrying with mutual consent.” is the best comment on the system in todays happenings in some parts of the world.Varkhedkar Mohan

    • Anonymous

      Yes, the intention of the article was only a possible scientific inquiry into the ancient system and nothing beyond that. So had to add that last paragraph to prevent possible misuse of the article for any other purpose.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_BUP32GVH34JPTHYQ5NJOGF6VAM AmitaB

    A very good article.. always wondered why we have been following the male lineage..

    • Anonymous

      Thanks Amita!

  • AM

    @ Itzguru - I have no words to describe what a superb and eye-opening article this is.I have always been aware of the lineage/rishi aspect of the gotra system but always felt that it was biased in terms of a female taking her husband’s gotra. Your thought process in the article was exactly how my mind was questioning it and you have presented awesome justifications for the same. Even many older people i have shown this article to have been amazed and enlightened with the concept of the Y choromosome and genetics et al. Also, your explanations to so many of the comments prove that the research on the scriptures and genetics has been thorough!! Really makes you feel proud (I always have no doubt, no its lot more!) that our country was way ahead of what modern science is even today (in many aspects).

    Loved the article man!! small help if possible  – any references on the net/free content available which are good and unbiased translation of the Vedas and other Hindu Scriptures?

    Thanks again for this post – and if you have reached till here, thanks for reading my comment!! :) Great job!!

    • Anonymous

      Thank you very much for the comments.

      I am not aware of any contextually accurate translations of the ancient works on the Net. Many accurate translations I have read are actually in regional languages of India, and the sad part is that most of these great translation works have no buyers.

      In a popular second hand book selling marketplace I actually purchased one such great translation for just Rs.10, the seller was amazed to see someone willing to buy it! That made me really sad.

      • AM

        Oh really, thanks for the info.
        And what languages would these be in  ?

        • Anonymous

          The ones I know about are in Kannada, Telugu, Tamil etc. Most of these authors are either priests themselves or are great scholars who have complete command over both the languages – Sanskrit and the translated language – so that makes these texts more authentic. Then there are books like the “Secret of the Vedas” by Sri Aurobindo which are also great works.

  • Dr Usha Sundaram

    There is also another meaning for Gotra. “Go “also means  Light [the Supreme] , Om[ the source of creation] and Trayati mean protection. The Great Rishis were the Scientists of the past to whom was revealed the  Source of creation as an experiential reality [ not academic].Their Genes contain this Archetype as well.and the  Original Supreme  Light is protected in their Genes.

    • Anonymous

      That is an interesting observation.

    • http://www.facebook.com/paul.gill.752861 Paul Gill

      “Their Genes contain this Archetype as well.and the Original Supreme Light is protected in their Genes”. If I may ask, what kind of a doctor are you?

  • Poorvakan

    Has anyone tried to check the ‘gotras’ of all the rishis these gotras as based upon?! This whole elucidation of a point would tip over if either of them belonged to the same gotra! I guess we’ll never know… And hence and apply a scientific basis and thus justify the minimization of women’s rights in Hinduism since ancient times.

    • I=Indian

       What has Gotra to do with Women’s rights? Gotra applies to both men and women, infact it applies more to men than women. Dont talk without knowing hinduism, hinduism is the only religion where the most powerful god is female not male. Hinduism is the only religion which has said that “Where women are worshipped there Gods reside”. Many people dont know that a lot of vedic hymns are actually written by women saints like Maitreyi, Gargi, etc.

      Coming to the Gotra of Rishis, the Rishis who started Gotra system are said to be the first humans, so most of their father is Brahma himself. So asking the Gotra of the root Rishis is like asking who were the parents of the first humans.

      • Clueless

        Women don’t like to be put on a pedestal and expected to be perfect all the time. Women like to be treated as human beings, with their own misgivings and imperfections. What Hinduism and many other religions do is say  ”you are a woman who is like god of the house…so you should not 1) go out 2) talk to other people 3) dress the way  you like…” etc and it becomes a means of controlling them. It is ironical that we worship goddess Durga and then go eve tease a bunch of girls minding their own business. 

        • Anonymous

          I am not going to talk about other cultures. But if you read the history of ancient India, you will see this was not the case in the ancient Hindu culture.

          Heard about Swaymavar? Women chose their life partners by garlanding their choice, and men used to line up on the day of the swayamvar to display all their skills, bravery, talent etc to impress the girl.

          A lot of the vedic hymns are written by women! Maitreyi, Gargi, Lopamudra etc.

          There were numerous kingdoms ruled by women. Even in recent history there were kingdoms like Jhansi, Kittoor, Keladi etc ruled by women.

          Yes, male chauvanism has creeped inside the Indian society too. But Hinduism has never tried to degrade women. Tell me one other culture or religion which has so much importance for female divinity. In fact which other religion even accepts female divinity? Infact Shakti is said to be the most powerful and important form of divinity without which this universe does not exist.

          Well, its incorrect to compare worshipping durga and eve teasing. Do you really believe those folks who do eve teasing worship durga by heart? :)
          Students are taught good things in the schools. But if some student goes off path, can we call it an irony? All type of people exist in a society. Which is why we have rules, laws and systems to ensure social harmony and civilian safety.

          • clueless

            We may claim worship of the feminine power in Hindu religion, but I am yet to see any power/equality come to women in real life. You talk about not degrading women…have you read Manusmriti? It basically claims women as equal to the status of cattle, and advises men to beat women to keep them in control just like they would do to cows.

            Have you heard of the verses..

            Karyeshu dasi; Karaneshu mantri;rupecha lakshmi; kshamaya dharitri;bhojyeshu mata; sayaneshu rambha;shat dharmayukta kuladharmapatni.this is how they look at women in our society…literally the translation being work like a slave, manage like a mantri, look awesome, be forgiving, satisfy your husband in bed and thats your model for how a woman should be. How is this not insulting to women? Do they ever tell in any sloka anywhere that a husband has to reciprocate similarly? That he has to think about satisfying his wife in bed? sayaneshu rambo anyone??

            • Anonymous

              Ok what do you mean by power/equality? What rights women dont have today which only men have? And it is not as if today all are devout hindus in India and are following strict hinduism which is in turn snatching away the rights of the women. You cannot blame hinduism for male chauvanism. As I said there were women rulers in the past, there are more women deities than male, there are women vedic authors – so I see no reason how can somebody call Hinduism anti-women!

              And you missed out the women’s rights (which infact men didn’t have!) in ancient Swayamvaras. There was no Swayam Vadhu where groom selected the bride, it was always a Swayam Vara where the bride selected the groom. But can somebody call it violation of men’s rights then? :)

              Manusmriti is the least followed (almost never followed) text in Hinduism today and is not an authority on Hinduism either. It is not some Veda or a bible of Hinduism. How many people do you know who follow Manusmriti or even have heard of it except for these select few quotes, let alone practice it as some holy text?

              At the same time, it is the most misquoted or misinterpreted of the Sanskrit texts. You should read the original text with an understanding of Sanskrit and the context of words as applicable during the times when it was authored.

              It is the same Manusmriti which also contains the verse

              Yatra Naryastu Poojyante Ramante Tatr Devatah – Where women are respected and honored there reside the Gods.

              Manu should be a nut to say one thing in one place and something totally opposite in the other. Cattle is a symbol of divinity, Cow is worshipped and respected a lot by Hindus. To compare to cows is not an insult. This is where context matters. In modern days today ‘Cattle class’ may be an insult. Not in the days of manu, nor to many hindus even today who worship cows as the most sacred animal.

              Dasi is not slave. Dasi represents service. The service we get in banks, etc – it is not slavery. Mantri represents providing timely and good suggestions and guidance. How on earth can expecting a wife to provide guidance and suggestions to her husband be considered insulting? Is expecting the wife to look beautiful a sin? It is not that the wife should look beautiful to the whole world. It is in the context of the husband, the wife should look beautiful in the eyes of her husband. Forgiveness is a natural gift to women, lets not deny that. Only a mother can be real caring when feed her children, we cant expect it from a hotel. So what is wrong if one wants his wife to feed him like how a mother feeds her child? Shayaneshu Rambha is a natural expectation and the same applies to men as well.

              Oh yes, there are numerous verses on the duties of a husband and men, except that they are not popular on the Internet :)

              Here are some actual quotes from Manu Smriti on Women
              agniveer.com/4276/manu-smriti-and-women/

              And even otherwise as I said, Manusmriti is no authority on Hinduism.

            • Anonymous

              Ok what do you mean by power/equality? What rights women dont have today which only men have? And it is not as if today all are devout hindus in India and are following strict hinduism which is in turn snatching away the rights of the women. You cannot blame hinduism for male chauvanism. As I said there were women rulers in the past, there are more women deities than male, there are women vedic authors – so I see no reason how can somebody call Hinduism anti-women!

              And you missed out the women’s rights (which infact men didn’t have!) in ancient Swayamvaras. There was no Swayam Vadhu where groom selected the bride, it was always a Swayam Vara where the bride selected the groom. But can somebody call it violation of men’s rights then? :)

              Manusmriti is the least followed (almost never followed) text in Hinduism today and is not an authority on Hinduism either. It is not some Veda or a bible of Hinduism. How many people do you know who follow Manusmriti or even have heard of it except for these select few quotes, let alone practice it as some holy text?

              At the same time, it is the most misquoted or misinterpreted of the Sanskrit texts. You should read the original text with an understanding of Sanskrit and the context of words as applicable during the times when it was authored.

              It is the same Manusmriti which also contains the verse

              Yatra Naryastu Poojyante Ramante Tatr Devatah – Where women are respected and honored there reside the Gods.

              Manu should be a nut to say one thing in one place and something totally opposite in the other. Cattle is a symbol of divinity, Cow is worshipped and respected a lot by Hindus. To compare to cows is not an insult. This is where context matters. In modern days today ‘Cattle class’ may be an insult. Not in the days of manu, nor to many hindus even today who worship cows as the most sacred animal.

              Dasi is not slave. Dasi represents service. The service we get in banks, etc – it is not slavery. Mantri represents providing timely and good suggestions and guidance. How on earth can expecting a wife to provide guidance and suggestions to her husband be considered insulting? Is expecting the wife to look beautiful a sin? It is not that the wife should look beautiful to the whole world. It is in the context of the husband, the wife should look beautiful in the eyes of her husband. Forgiveness is a natural gift to women, lets not deny that. Only a mother can be real caring when feed her children, we cant expect it from a hotel. So what is wrong if one wants his wife to feed him like how a mother feeds her child? Shayaneshu Rambha is a natural expectation and the same applies to men as well.

              Oh yes, there are numerous verses on the duties of a husband and men, except that they are not popular on the Internet :)

              Here are some actual quotes from Manu Smriti on Women
              agniveer.com/4276/manu-smriti-and-women/

              And even otherwise as I said, Manusmriti is no authority on Hinduism.

            • Anonymous

              Also you should definitely read this http://www.infinityfoundation.com/mandala/h_es/h_es_pande_women_frameset.htm
              Note: It has been written by a Hindu Woman

            • Malini

              Being a woman from a devout Hindu family I have experienced the great respect women have in our families. The families you talk about where women dont get respect cannot be practicing Hindus. They may be like some male chauvanistic remote areas of UP or Bihar, definitely not practicing Hindus.

              My father even today at this age hands down his entire salary to my mother and it is my mother who decides how to spend it. My father only earns. And both my parents are devout hindus. Also none of my parents have ever heard about Manu Smriti. But my father reads Bhagavadgita everyday.

        • I=Indian

          Well, just have a look at the statistics of domestic violence which is the largest abuse faced by Indian women. Ask any wife who has faced domestic violence and I bet more than 90% of them point their fingers towards their mother-in-law. 

          The biggest problem faced by married women in India is another woman, not man. Not all mother-in-laws are bad, but almost in all the cases where a wife faces freedom issues and domestic violence, the root cause is the mother in law.

          All those restrictions you have listed in all your comments are imposed on one woman (daughter-in-law) by another woman (mother-in-law). Even if the husband gives her wife complete freedom, it is the mother-in-law who tries to deny her that freedom. This is a hard truth. Do a survey yourself amongst married women and you will find the truth.

      • http://www.facebook.com/paul.gill.752861 Paul Gill

        “hinduism is the only religion where the most powerful god is female not male”.

        You don’t know even your own religion, goddess is only the creative force of the God, it does not exist apart from God .

        “Rishis who started Gotra system are said to be the first humans, so most of their father is Brahma himself”.

        One father, one gotra, they were brothers of same gotra, the same ydna lineage.

  • http://profiles.google.com/haribadhri Hari Haran Sathyamurthy

    deep inside into the hindu gotra system, how the y chromosome works.

    man have one y and one x and woman have two x

    in the reaction the possibility of y taking part other is very slim chances and if does it means who it works. we have to think

    in those ages where the scientific method were not established the ancestors were able to predict and given awesome and simple way to follows whole issue.

    once in the tamil serial televised in the jaya tv….. the serial director mentioned it has geographcial based issued only for the development of culture.

    but you have proven beyond that too and given little insight to big matter.

    let us see what you going to put in the coming days.

    i am very inquisitive in these matters

    thanks and god may give the mind, health and other needs to develop it further.

  • G.R.SANKARANAR4AYANAN

    Thank you very much for knowing the intricacies of the effects of the Gothrams formulated by our forefathers. All faithful persons have a knowledge of the effects,

    others leave it to their opinion.

  • Ravinderkumar K

    Trust me. I got remind of a situation that happened with me and my friend Rajni in engineering. I was thinking about Adam and Eve story and trying to draw top to down chain relation on a piece of paper. She came and asked what are you drawing, i said i am just figuring out the fact about brothers and sisters. She asked what ? I told bible says adam and eve are the first couple, no matter whether its adam or eve but there should be some couple who took birth like humans, now if they have sex, suppose that we got 2 male and 2 female and again if these 4 mutually participate in a game finally here comes a human breed. Now finally i asked, who is brother and who is sister ? She just said i am mad and leftI love science, probably it may be true but before even that. How human breed came in to exist is much more important..Who know that, no one but only few researchers who found that in south africa there was a breed which look like humans got virus and at one point they got killed becoz of that and large no of human looking breed got disappeared but only few hundreds got survived from that virus and came back alive to continue the breed.Science is always right, but we cannot just stupidly follow its principles just like any other species on this planet, None of the other living beings expect humans on the planet do know anything about this science. We are humans, the only species who learnt a lot of things by doing experiments to the extinct taking so much risks. Now we always found remedies to survive on this planet sequentially, if this is the case they will find something to survive, but on the other hand why dont we naturally allow it happen, i mean still further let it happen and let us die as it is than to force fully change the system that is been changing recently where people started to love and daring to marry crossing all the stupid caste-ism..Now dont ask me about the arrange marriages getting 90percent success..its again a debatable issue. If you still insist that we should follow the above one there would be so many couples living their lives just blindly with out even having interest upon their spouses…More than half of the vedic principles, that scientifically proven are not implemented now by anyone becoz of the advanced world where we dont get chance or we dont need or what ever. Its tough to balance ourselves who are running with a specific pace towards something which we dont know where we leading. Now shut all the rules like this and let us allow all to marry the loved ones and die facing any thing like this happily if happened. In creativity and innovation class that i had in MBA they always told that break the rule to be creative , to know much more , to explore yourselves …Now that what human is doing through his research…he is breaking the law every time to go further higher step of the development…hope you got this point and need no example… Hope conveyed my message with clarity to you

    • Anonymous

      Yes you definitely have made your point here. This is a fast world today and most people rarely have enough time to anything outside their professional work and happy weekends :)

      But most if not all arranged marriages I have seen have succeeded, and I have seen a lot of love marriage failures. So it is not arranged or love that matters, but maturity of the minds.

      In case of arranged marriages usually the minds would have matured a lot before making the final choice compatible to them (unless and until parents are forcing someone into a marriage)

      But in case of love marriages it is usually the first choice they go with and unless and until the minds are already mature enough to find the perfect match, there will be trouble later.

      Even the failed arranged marriages I know are only those cases where parents had FORCED the boy and girl into a marriage. All those arranged marriages I know where the boy and girl decided their choice have been greatly successful. And all the love marriages I know which failed are because of the immaturity of the minds who fell in love, most of them fell in love in their college days itself!

      So as I said, as long as the couples getting married are mature enough and given freedom to select their soul mates – arranged or love does not matter.

  • Anir

    I guess the vedic people were ignorant of mtDNA. But wait. They didn’t know about Y-Chromosome either. Their system was a patriarchal one, not one based on any “scientific” ideas. But the author of this article wants scientific justifications for social practices of a different era, which are largely irrelevant to today’s society, so that they confirm his bias of Vedic supremacy.

    What next? Maybe, the vedic people were so knowledgeable about genetics, that they divided castes based on people’s genetic makeup. So we have high quality genes which upper caste people have and low quality genes which lower caste people have. Once you start twisting science to suit your agenda, anything can be made to sound scientific.

    • I=Indian

      There is a HUGE difference between a mere patriarchal system and a patriarchal system where marriages between the same male lineages are forbidden. The former does not maintain a Y Chromosome based male lineage, the latter does. If you dont agree, then that shows your bias.

      Is not it obvious that at the least in the beginning the system had a scientific basis. It is quite obvious that in the very beginning this system prevented marriages between first cousins aka children of brothers. Is not that scientific?

      Talking about castes in terms of vedic society shows your ignorance about the original varna system. Read the same author’s article
      http://www.hitxp.com/articles/history/vedic-caste-system-hinduism/

      • Anir

        There is a HUGE difference between a mere patriarchal system and a
        patriarchal system where marriages between the same male lineages are
        forbidden.

        Why only between male lineages? Why not between female lineage? Because of ignorance of the existence of mtDNA? Or because of a patriarchal bias? Do you think over the entire human genome, recessive pairing happens only in the 5% of Y-Chromosome? If not, what excuse have you got have for not taking mtDNA into consideration
        for lineage tracking?

        Is not it obvious that at the least in the beginning the system had a
        scientific basis. It is quite obvious that in the very beginning this
        system prevented marriages between first cousins aka children of
        brothers. Is not that scientific?

        I only said hinted at there being nothing scientific about the obsession with the male lineage. Why are you bringing up an irrelevant argument about inbreeding, the affects of which easy enough to observe and don’t require knowledge about Y-Chromosome?

        Talking about castes in terms of vedic society shows your ignorance
        about the original varna system. Read the same author’s article

        You quite obviously missed the point I was making by citing the the caste system. Once you leave the evidence based system of science and start wildly speculating, you can draw *any* conclusion you want. For example, there is zero evidence of ancient Indians knowing about Y-Chromosomes or anything that fall under what science calls as genetics.

        But the lack of evidence didn’t stop the author from speculating. On one hand he assumes ancient Indians knew about genetics and went to great lengths to assign scientific validity to a patriarchal system based on a flawed premise that only Y-Chromosome is preserved intact across generations as it doesn’t cross over. mtDNA too doesn’t cross over and is preserved intact.

        • I=Indian

          Is there a problem if they didnt know about mtDNA and knew only about Y Chromosome? Is there any rule saying that to be considered scientific you should know both else none?

          Are other Chromosomes under the same threat of extinction as is Y Chromosome? Is mtDNA under thread of extinction like Y Chromosome?

          Why isnt inbreeding related to Gotra System? Isn’t it scientific to say for first cousins in the same family not to marry each other? Now isnt that what Gotra system says too except that today its being applied for faraway families. But then in its initial days it definitely should have been within the same near families. So isnt the absolutely Gotra scientific in its early days where in it banned first cousin marriages?

          What evidence is left out about varna (professional) nature of caste system? Do you know Sanskrit? Have you read the ancient texts yourself? What is the source of your knowledge about ancient texts?

          Guess you have not understood the article. Where did the author say that mtDNA is not preserved intact. Just because mtDNA is preserved intact does it mean one should always consider it, or should never consider Y Chromosome. For a second let us assume that Gotra system was all about female lineage and mtDNA, then your argument would have been on the lines of ‘Y Chromosome doesnt cross over and its preserved intact’

          What is the problem if one consider only Y Chromosome and goes for male lineage? Its like looking at a person eating Roti in a Dhaba and saying, “Boss, even eating Rice will fill your stomach, wny eat Roti”.

          By the way the author also has speculated in the article that probably the reason to try and preserve Y Chromosome was because modern Genetics has revealed that its under a threat of extinction. mtDNA has no such threat. So?

          Some are religious fanatics and some are scientific fanatics and BOTH ARE WRONG. Let us be neither of them.

          • Anir

            Is there a problem if they didnt know about mtDNA and knew only about Y Chromosome?

            Yes. There is. The main premise of the articles on this website is that modern science is just a reinvention of ancient knowledge. I’m just pointing out that the premise is totally in the wrong.

            Are other Chromosomes under the same threat of extinction as is Y Chromosome? Is mtDNA under thread of extinction like Y Chromosome?

            An unproven assumption lies behind that statement. That the ancient Indians had any clue about Y-Chromosome when they devised the gotra system.

            So isnt the absolutely Gotra scientific in its early days where in it banned first cousin marriages?

            I didn’t say it isn’t.

            What evidence is left out about varna (professional) nature of caste system? Do you know Sanskrit? Have you read the ancient texts yourself? What is the source of your knowledge about ancient texts?

            My comment on caste uses the same logic (i.e. arguments built by twisting science, and without any consideration to evidence to suit an agenda) as is used on this website. I am not talking about factual claims of what the ancient texts have to say on the caste system. Despite me pointing out why I made that comment, you fail to see it, and then make irrelevant points.

            For a second let us assume that Gotra system was all about female lineage and mtDNA, then your argument would have been on the lines of ‘Y Chromosome doesnt cross over and its preserved intact’

            Once again you miss my point. Read the first quoted reply in this comment.

            What is the problem if one consider only Y Chromosome and goes for male lineage?

            The justifications given in this article for the gotra system are that ancient Indians somehow new about genetics, that is why they emphasized male lineage because Y-Chromosomes don’t cross over. Well, it would seem bizzare for people who knew about Y-Chromosome to not know about mtDNA which too doesn’t crossover.

            By the way the author also has speculated in the article that probably the reason to try and preserve Y Chromosome was because modern Genetics has revealed that its under a threat of extinction. mtDNA has no such threat. So?

            You are talking as if the extinction of the Y-Chromosome is a given. I don’t find that surprising, given how much pseudoscience and how many baseless assumptions are taken as facts on this site. What I do find surprising is you confidently talking as if you understand the process of science when you don’t even know what science actually says about Y-Chromosome extinction.

            • I=Indian

              Read the article which you yourself mentioned above in your comment. It says

              “The effect of the Y chromosome’s vulnerability to mutations has clear
              manifestations. Almost all de novo (new) mutations are derived from the
              father, not the mother

              Isn’t that exactly the same reason what the author in the above Gotra article has cited too? That Y Chromosome is more vulnerable to mutations than ANY OTHER chromosome and mtDNA not being a chromosome is nowhere in the picture.

              BTW How did you assume that what I know about Genetics? Can you point me to just one point where I have said something incorrect about Genetics?

              • Anir

                My point is about tracking lineages. Not about mutations on chromosomes. Don’t move goal posts.

                But let me also point out the flaw in your point. If you want to track lineages you’d want a genetic region that doesn’t change much. mtDNA fits that requirement nicely. But of course, as I’ve been repeating again and again, the vedic people had no clue about either Y-Chromosome or mtDNA. The male lineage obsession has a simple reason to exist – a patriarchal system
                .

                How did you assume that what I know about Genetics?

                I didn’t assume anything. I only used what you have written in your comments.

                Can you point me to just one point where I have said something incorrect about Genetics?

                Yes I can. You were so sure about the “fact” that Y-Chromosome will go extinct, when there is no scientific consensus on it.

                • I=Indian

                  My point is about tracking lineages. Not about mutations on chromosomes. Don’t move goal posts

                  But the above article which we are discussing about talks about mutations, not just lineages. Lineages is simple genetics, Y Chromosome maintains male lineages is a scientific fact and nobody needs to prove that.

                  There was a show in discovery the other day where scientists proved the MYTH that most of Monoglians today are descendants of Chengiz Khan. Almost every single mongolian who was tested had the same Y Chromosome.

                  And about the fact that Y chromosome goes extinct or not, if there is no consensus in science then does that mean I should not take sides? Are only scientists having that right to take sides in this argument. If I can take side, then what is the problem if I use that as a basis for my theory. Anyhow if my side proves to be wrong then my theory will also fail is not it?

    • I=Indian

      Also looks like you are not much aware of what the ancient Indians knew and had achieved. Read
      http://www.hitxp.com/articles/veda/vedic-ancient-science-modern-technology-mathematics-geometry/

      • Anir

        I know quite well what ancients Indians had achieved. But the question to be asked is, what should be included in those achievements? The kind like the mathematical ones which have ample evidence? Or the kind that arise from supremacist bias like the ones imputed here?

        • I=Indian

          You get evidence only if you are first willing to consider some possibilities and do research. You cant say that you know what ancient Indians achieved. More than 95% of the ancient texts are lost, so none of us know most of what they knew.

          Evidence doesn’t come searching us, we should pick the clues and start relating things. For that we should be open ourselves first. Earlier people used to say that Mahabharatha never happened and is mythology and today we have the submerged city of Dwaraka and its remains under the seas of Gujarat. Earlier people used to say that River Saraswati is a mythological river that never existed and today we have proof that during the vedic period this river was much larger than Ganga or Yamuna.
          With investigation comes knowledge.

          Again I ask, what are your evidences based on even in mathematical cases, for which you say there is ample evidence? How did you accept them? Did you read those ancient texts in their original language?
          They might be talking nonsense there too. Who knows?

          And for the ones mentioned here, how do you know there is no evidence, again have you read all the related ancient texts?

          The matter of the fact is 99.9% of those who say we know or dont know what the ancient Indians achieved have NEVER read ANY of the original texts.

          I would strongly suggest to the author (Mr. Gurudev) to start writing articles quoting from the original texts. I understand that some audience might not be willing to read thesis like articles, but we definitely need such articles which are VERY SPECIFIC in nature. I am quite sure that the author of the article agrees that this blog is not meant for every TD&H, but for those who are really interested in understanding their history and the knowledge of their ancestors.

          • Anir

            I have only two things to say.

            One -
            argument from ignorance Now don’t get offended by the word ignorance. If you want to talk about science, that’s a concept from philosophy of science.

            Secondly, since the Harry Potter books deal with a real life city London, does that make Harry Potter real? He has to be going by your logic. Or at least the prior probability of him being real has to be very high before you start investigating.

          • Anir

            I would strongly suggest to the author (Mr. Gurudev) to start writing articles quoting from the original texts. I understand that some audience might not be willing to read thesis like articles, but we definitely need such articles which are VERY SPECIFIC in nature. I am quite sure that the author of the article agrees that this blog is not meant for every TD&H, but for those who are really interested in understanding their history and the knowledge of their ancestors

            If you want to claim scientific validity, what is needed is evidence that stands up to the rigor demanded by science. When you quote pseudoscience from people like Luc Montaigner what you are using is not science, but nonsense. So read all the ancients texts you want and quote directly from them. But if you think ancient ancient people had any clue about modern science, show the evidence.

    • Srividya

      Having achieved so much advances in science and technology and still the western science has no simple (or even complex) answer to getting rid of obesity and over weight. The whole world is taking on to the ancient Yoga which has provided quick and efficient exercised to get rid of obesity. Yoga has its roots in the vedic society of ancient India. So obviously there is vedic supremacy here.

      Why are you attributing something to the author which he never said. Now that is called deviation. Where did he say that different caste people have different genes. You want to prove Point A wrong. So you attach point B (which is wrong) to point A and then say point A is wrong. That is not scientific either.

      • Srividya

        What do you have to say about this? http://www.infinityfoundation.com/ECITlightframeset.htm

      • Anir

        Western science? Are you so lacking in knowledge of what non-western civilizations contributed to science, that you are calling science as “western”? Also, yoga isn’t the only way to get rid of weight. It is just seen as more hip and well marketed using the same consumerist tactics which also lead to obesity.

        I made the caste comment to show the absurdity of not relying on evidence and twisting science. Like I=Indian, you too missed my point.

        • Srividya

          Yes I intentionally used “western science”.

          Right Yoga is from eastern science and is the safest way of getting rid of weight. What western science has as solutions? Lipo suction? Lap Bands. Can you even call Lap Bands science? Its just horrible. Yoga is consumerist tactics? How many commercial or otherwise ads you find about Yoga for weight loss? And compare that with the umpteen number of commercials about all those instruments which claim to help in weight loss.

          Eastern science is all about obliging to nature and going by the natural way. Ayurveda and Yoga being classic examples of it. Now compare this with pain killers, dozens of them. What is more, western science has made entire american society addicted to drugs in the name of medicine. Depression is treated using tablets?

          Eastern science was using cow dung and natural herbal origin manure as fertilizers, neem based products as pesticides and these being natural components never harmed the soil quality. Now look at thousands of acres of soil losing their fertility and even causing illness because of stupid chemical based fertilizers and pesticides, thanks to western science.

          I will give you a personal experience of mine. My brother had become almost bald in his very early 20s and for a year we tried everything from western medication, and his hair got reduced even further. Some chemicals even caused allergy and for that the doctors gave anti histamine!

          Then fortunately on one of our trips to Kerala in south India we came across a little known ayurvedic center and were advised by our driver to try it out once. We started ayurvedic medication using a complex herbal oil provided by the ayurvedic center and in just three months by brother had regained most of his lost hair. Today if you see him you cannot even imagine that he was almost completely bald a couple of years back. Ever since this incident my entire family uses ONLY ayurvedic medication and we have had no problems till today. After consistently using ayurvedic tonics based on Amla, we havent even had common cold for past couple of years.

          I am not saying western science has not achieved anything. But most of it meant for common consumers, especially in the field of medicine is total crap and largely controlled by Multinationals who are out there to turn entire humanity into addicts of their drugs. Just look at the GM crops coming out there. On how many generations of people for how long have they tested the GM products? Now is that science? Having terminator genes in natural vegetables and fruits to make farmers depend for lifetime on multinationals for seed supply, do you call it science?

          • Anir

            This is science. There is nothing inherently western about it. Science stands on the shoulders of giants from the past and people like you are doing a disservice to those giants by calling science as western. And people here want to lecture me on the achievements of ancient Indians. Oh, the bleeding irony.

            You also setup a big fat strawman of lipo suction and what not, when there exist other exercise regimens for reducing weight. Show me one study which says yoga is the only exercise which reduces weight. Also the asanas
            are of recent origin
            and have nothing to do with the Vedas.

            • Anir

              Mangled link. Here is the proper one

            • Srividya

              Now that shows your ignorance again and bias. First you say ancients didnt achieve that much after all, and when there are specifics like Yoga you try to delink it from the ancients.

              Krishnamacharya merely revived yoga just like the way Shankaracharya revived the vedas. And you say Meera Nanda is an authority on ancient texts? Here are the facts.

              1. Meera Nanda Proudly Struts her Ignorance

              2. A preliminary reply by Dr. Koenraad Elst to Ms. Meera Nanda

              3.
              The Hindu Roots of Yoga

              4. On patanjali And His Works

              5. Yoga Asana, the Ancient Hindu Legacy

              The truth is Meera Nanda has never read any of the ancient texts and goes on to create her own fantasy world. As I=Indian has rightly said in his comments, these are useless people who cant even speak a single line of Sanskrit and yet talk loads about ancient texts.

              • Anir

                Now that shows your ignorance again and bias. First you say ancients didnt achieve that much after all

                Don’t put words into my mouth. I didn’t say ancients knew nothing. I said they had no clue about stuff like Y-Chromosome and mtDNA. Can’t you read properly? Show me where I said without any qualifiers that “ancients didnt achieve that much after all”.

                when there are specifics like Yoga you try to delink it from the ancients.

                I only said some asanas are of recent origin and are not of Vedic origins. I didn’t say anything about they not being of Indian origin. Again, are your reading comprehension skills that poor?

                • Srividya

                  See, first of all I didnt call entire science as western. I was talking only about “western contributions to science” when I said “western science” and you didnt get that point and said I am “doing a disservice to science”

                  Where did I say that you said “ancients knew nothing”, I only said that you mean “ancients didnt achieve that much after all”, because now you said Yoga is not that ancient.

                  Guess you have not read all the links I posted about Yoga. Again I repeat, Yoga has its root in veda, 20 of the 120 upanishads are DEDICATED to yogasanas and people like Meera Nanda dont even know about their existence. Upanishads are nothing but commentaries on vedas in much simpler language. So what is the logic behind saying that Yogasanas are not vedic?

                  Infact it is said that Shiva is the master of all Yogasanas and from him other ancient sages learnt these asanas. Indus valley seals of Rudra discovered are in specific yogasana postures.

                  Somebody writes something about Yoga not being ancient and you believe it? Why is it so hard to digest the fact that ancient Indians could come up with yogasanas?

  • Shamcharismaorama

    hmm.. so what abt the X chromosome of dad that gets passed to daughters? tat dosnt mean she is carryin down his lineage further is it? ;)

    • I=Indian

      @9e6b059b16abdc2e7c00cb8e3c342cce:disqus No daughters do not carry down father’s lineage unaltered. It is only Sons who do so via their Y Chromosome. This is not some religious rule, it is pure science. Which is why daughter’s Gotra changes when she marries, because her sons will then carry their father’s Y Chromosome.

      • Shamcharismaorama

        This is just some sort of assumption. Even the Y chromosome thats passed down from father to son is altered to a certain extent. The same way X chromosome that the daughter receives from father is altered a little. You cant base your conclusions that daughters do not carry forward the father’s lineage only coz the son’s have the Y chromosome from the father’s. In fact genetics say that the chromosome from dad is passed in tact to daughter and the chromosome from mother to son. This is like.. reading thro genetics.. and goin eureka!! I found somethin .. why dont you supplement your findings with some solid research proof?

        • I=Indian

          @9e6b059b16abdc2e7c00cb8e3c342cce:disqus You definitely need to read a the basics of Genetics then. 95% of Y Chromosome NEVER gets altered from father to son even after hundreds of generations and is USED BY Geneticists to identify male lineages. Recently there was a research of how the Y Chromosome of Chengiz Khan was found unaltered in most Mongolian males living today.

          Y Chromosome is the ONLY Chromosome which has this ability because it always comes alone unlike X Chromosome which comes in pairs in female.

          Which Genetics book or professor told you this lie that “chromosome from dad is passed in tact to daughter and the chromosome from mother to son”

          No Chromosome is passed from mother to son intact. Nor is any Chromosome passed from father to daughter intact. Only Y Chromosome is passed from father to son intact. This is VERY BASIC GENETICS. Ask Any Genetics professor or read any website on Genetics.

          Nobody gives proof for 1+1=2. That is BASIC ARITHMETIC.

  • KK

    Excellent work sir… I commend you for your research…

    • Anonymous

      Thanks KK

  • Avinash

    nice work. continue this. i have a question about the rituals which we do for the persons who are dead, will it reach them and what science say about these works

    • Anonymous

      Well, currently science has nothing to say about it because science has not yet deeply inquired into the nature of consciousness, evolution of self awareness, not able to explain how some people can remember their past life and so on.

  • Sreram

    Ya good one to read. But would like to add and share a few points. Kindly note the opinions i express here are my own and is not substantiated by scientific proofs, and are derived from various books i have read, my personal experiences etc.

    First to summarize, Gotra System maintains a Genetic Male Lineage via Y Chromosome, and neither does it maintain a lineage through X Chromosomes, nor does it recommend marriages b/w people (man and woman) with same X Chromosomes.

    Second as the author himself said in his replies so many times, the original splitting of people was not according to caste (like the ones’ we follow now OBC, SC/ST and further sub-castes), but according to occupation. I would even go on to say, this splitting was done for administrative reasons and not to make people fight with each other – my caste is better or your caste is better. I cannot agree with the author anything more than this. Its 100% true. And, Hinduism is the only caste, which welcomes the growth of other castes and traditions in parallel.

    Then People started taking suddenly about inter-caste marriages and started questioning suddenly (at one point, or atleast that is what i got from reading the replies ) like “Why didnt’ the generation die becoz their parents had an inter-caste marriage?”. These genetics were and are there for generations, and it doesn’t mean just becoz ones father had inter-caste marriage, their children will have disabilities. The chromosomes will suffer a few damages, and those damages might – i stress – MIGHT reflect in the third of even fourth generation. The chromosomes might repair themselves and might resume normalcy, if the damage does not prolong.

    I would also like to state here, that even the things we brahmins follow today in the name of traditions, are not without reason. As the column discussed rather elaborately about marriages, will speak about the tradition of putting ‘KOLAM’, as is called in tamil. This is done not without a reason. The rice flour that we use to put ‘KOLAM’ in our house, will be food for many ants and insects that might cross outside our house. The current generation changed that by putting those in chalk piece and other materials, and started questioning whats the bloody use of it.

    Everything that our ancestors were doing, they were doing not without reason, but unfortunately, we people just do not know the proper reason for it. Even the concept of kicking the photo of elders (as somebody questioned), holds good for this reason. In scientific terms, its just a photo and kick it. But in terms of tradition, we know it as “they are our elders and we mustnt kick them” but we do not know the actual reason behind why we shouldn’t kick it.

    And that is essentially the difference between science and spirituality. By science we seek reason for everything, but in terms of spirituality, we know ‘It must be done’ or ‘It must not be done’, but we do not know the reason. Once the reason is known, we accept the spirituality as science.

    • Anonymous

      Very informative. Thanks for that. I feel the difference between science and spirituality is that science is more materialistic in nature and is still seeking answers to its questions even in the physical universe and is still far away from enquiring in to the nature of consciousness, soul, etc. Once that happens spirituality will become a part of science.

  • Kishore
    • Anonymous

      Sure. First and foremost, no system be it Gotra or other should be used to impose morality in the society. Have updated my article by adding content at the end to prevent its misuse by such morality maintainers of the society.

      Having said that the above Hindu link provided by you is definitely well intentioned, but ill informed. The article says

      “In India, the clan (gotra) has its origin not in the birth of people but derives from the gurus they followed. For example, families belonging to the Bharadwaja gotra are the followers of Bharadwaja Maharishi. But it does not necessarily mean that all its members belong to the same family.”

      This is utter ignorance about the Gotra system. The generally followed Gotra is family Gotra and if you see the history itself each lineage contains next generations from a root. For instance in the Bhrigu lineage comes Jamadagni, his son is Parashurama and so on and they all belong to the same line of family, this is not Guru based. Exceptional cases are called Guru Shishya Parampara based Gotra, and as I said they are not the norms they are exceptions. So the line

      For example, families belonging to the Bharadwaja gotra are the followers of Bharadwaja Maharishi.

      shows the ignorance of the author about the Gotra system, the same way ignorance about science is shown by those who blindly follow ancient practices. The author CANNOT prove a system wrong scientifically if in the first place what he said about the system itself is wrong. Any person who knows that the Gotra system is about family lineage will immediately say that the above author does not know what Gotra system is in the first place. He goes on to equate castes with Gotras which again is incorrect.

      The author again says

      We can trace the ancestry of families up to 10 or 15 generations. Beyond that it is not possible to go back.

      Now this line shows the ignorance of the author about SCIENCE. Y Chromosome can be used to trace the ancestry of families for ANY number of generations in males and mitochondrial DNA can be used to trace the ancestry of families for ANY number of generations in both males and females.

      And finally the author has his own conclusion with no historic proof by saying

      For example, if marriages are allowed within the Bharadwaja gotra, the followers of Bharadwaja will become limited. If a bride is picked up from another gotra, she will become a new member of the followers of Bharadwaja, thereby increasing the number of the followers.

      Well the question is, assume that there is one Gotra which is larger than the other Gotra in terms of number of people. Now if what the author said above is correct, WHY will the other Gotra agree to give away their girls which would in this case REDUCE their number? So this argument is neither logical nor has any historical evidence.

  • Nakulgan

    A good mix of Spiritual and Scientific Bullshit.
    I cant help it but notice that you seem to side with Science or Spirituality as the situation demands.

    You talk so much about genes and chromosomes and then speak about the Prajapatis as descendants of Bramha.

    Very rhetorical.

    Your arguments have their own value.But your conclusion seems to break everything apart.

    • Abc

      get ready for the reply dear :) btw you have not mentione which side you are on always all the time :)

    • Anonymous

      I really liked the first line of your comment :)

      I dont think science can exclude spirituality forever if it intends to be COMPLETE. You are talking as if the Science we know is a COMPLETE science answering all the questions, where as the matter of the fact is that Science has yet a lot of unanswered questions, including the one that matters in spirituality like the root of Consciousness in life. So Science and Spirituality cannot be mutually exclusive forever, either spirituality has to be dubbed as unscientific or science has to accept it as an attribute of nature. And that would definitely happen in the not too distant future.

      I understand your concern about Brahma and Prajapati, but unlike what is popular knowledge based on story telling books, if one with the knowledge of Sanskrit reads the ancient texts, then one can see that Brahma is NOT a God in the normal sense. Brahma represents our physical universe, has a birth and a death whose age is counted in terms of a hundred odd billion years, and is synonymous to our universe created in the Big Bang. Many Brahmas come and go and our universe is one such Brahma. And hence the personification of Brahma as the creator God from whom everything in this physical universe including life sprang.

      Prajapatis again actually refer to the very initial line of chromosomal set evolved for different species and hence are symbolically termed as descendants of Brahma after all life evolved within this Universe. If you read the ancient texts it is said that initially there were a set of Prajapatis who then went to become other life forms, one set branched off from this chain and became cattle and so on.

      The issue is the real understanding of the terms where personification in the scriptures is taken literally, and modern Hinduism worships them all in the form of numerous Gods. The root of the vedas is a monotheistic. All other things which are worshipped as God are actually personifications of different forms of nature as we see or experience, be it Vayu(air), Varuna(Water), Agni(Fire), Shiva(End of cycles of nature), Kaal Purush (Time), Surya (Sun), Usha (Dawn), and so on. Unfortunately very few understand this today.

      See my article The Hindu Concept of God

      • sainath

        btw… the same gurji say that brahma is the god of semen

        http://www.onlineselfrealization.com

        it also has some gr8ly written articles… sadly for quite long time in years nothing is updated there.. :(

        Secrtes of Monkey God has the reference of above and Vishnu explained beautifully..

        read on

        http://www.onlineselfrealization.com/monkeygod2.html

        • Anonymous

          Thanks for that nice link, have downloaded the entire site for offline reading :)

          • sainath

            :) but i think there are only 8-10 articles written and some Q&A, if you find something more let me know :)

    • I=Indian

      Spirituality says don’t show disrespect to the photographs of your parents because it SYMBOLIZES your parents.
      Science says that a photograph is just a photograph and it represents just the chemicals and material used to make it, nothing else.

      According to Science kicking that photograph is not the same as kicking the persons in it. According to Spirituality it is.

      Assuming that you are a very scientifically tempered person, tell me in this particular case of photographs of parents whether you will side with spirituality or with science?

  • THE REAL TRUTH PLEASE

    Gurudev, it is disappointing to see that you have deleted my comments.
    Once again, I am not against Hindus or Vedas at all. I am in fact, a practicing brahmin myself.
    However, for the benefit of the readers, I urge you to not suppress the Real truth –
    Gothra system sadly is still used for marriages and in its current patriarchal form, designates the father side of the family as kin. This is unfortunately scientifically wrong and possibly very dangerous to the lives of grand daughters. Since the two do not share any X chromosome between them, marriage between a daughter and her father’s brother’s son is not forbidden by science even though it is a taboo under the Gothra system. On the contrary marriage to the maternal side still poses a significant threat for those who are unaware.

    The Real Truth…

    Gothra is a sacred means of identifying one’s lineage, and has stood the test of time – few other communities in the world can be proud of such a identification system. Very sadly, it has also been heavily misused – the members of the same Gothra system are no more like kin scientifically than members of any other Gothra. In a country where arranged marriages account for 90% – unaware parents still use it for matching and rejecting alliances!


    This use of the Gotra custom to decide or reject marriage alliances can have unforeseeable disastrous consequences for the offspring of those couples and it is best if everyone is educated about it correctly that it is SAFEST when not associated with marriages.

    I sincerely hope that you will take my comments in the right sense.
    Thank you.

    • THE REAL TRUTH PLEASE

      My sincere apologies, an issue with my browser ended up hiding all my own comments :(
      Thank you for adding that paragraph but my point was, to NOT associate Gothra with marriages in its entirety – not add more restrictions :-)

      Let the system be followed correctly and hope the men continue to carry their lineage into the future, but marrying an unrelated lady from the same Gothra should not get them ostracized by rest of the community ;-)

      • Anonymous

        Yes I do definitely agree that none of our practices should be based on blind faith. In fact I am sure you would agree with me that Hinduism is the only faith which has continuously evolved because it always has been an open faith not controlled by any handful of fanatics, and has always welcomed criticism since time immemorial.

        So yes, while it is a scientific fact that the Gotra system does indeed maintain a genetic male lineage, regarding the marriages based on Gotra system we should definitely go in for a genetic pool verification and see if it really matters these days. As I said, probably a detailed statistical analysis of the genetic makeup of same Gotra men and women from unrelated families should be able to answer the cons, if any of sagotra marriages. If there is no Genetic evidence found against the sagotra then definitely I think we should get rid of it in that case.

        This article is just an attempt to analyze the science behind the system. Most people dont even know that the Gotra system maintains a genetic male lineage. If you read the article I myself thought it to be crap earlier, but I now see that there definitely is a scientific merit to it as far as maintaining a genetic lineage in Y Chromosomes is concerned. But whether the Gotra system should be used in deciding marital pacts or not should again be left to science – if DNA analysis of same Gotras show there is no harm in marriage between unrelated families of same Gotra, then that should be published everywhere and more importantly all matrimonial website should carry this report to educate all aspiring brides and bridegrooms about it.

    • Anonymous

      Well I dont delete any comments unless and until they are very abusive in nature, and even in such cases I usually only delete the abusive words :)

      • Arjunishwar

        You are a way too nice guy to be a hindu…I wish you would join us in the dark side. :) :)

        • Anonymous

          Come on sir, you mean hindus are not nice guys? They are the most tolerant human species on this planet, just look at the number of other religions born in this country and other religions living in this country. You cant find any other country with such a flashback. I do agree there are exceptions even here, but the number of norms hugely outrun the exceptions.

          If Hindus were weak, then numerous invasions in history would have wiped them out. All the nations from middle east to far away Indonesia have their original faiths wiped out. But India has withstood these repeated onslaughts on its ancient religion and stands tall even today. This proves their survivability.

          But again this is a religion which also has allowed other thoughts, even opposing ones to flourish – Can you imagine religions like Buddhism, Jainism, Sikhism etc being born in other countries, not just born, but flourished. Buddhism once upon a time almost completely consumed Hinduism and went on to become the dominant religion in this part of the world, but there was no violent reactions, instead you saw the likes of Shankaracharya take on a mission to reinvent Hinduism and they achieved stunning success in doing so, and all this without a drop of blood.

          Giordano Bruno was burnt alive by the church, Galileo was persecuted, Copernicus was scared to speak the truth and so on. On the other hand in Hinduism, even during its peak existence there were those who openly criticized it like Charvaka, Madhavacharya, Buddha – but none of them had anything to fear about. Instead they all had their own mass followers.

          One can find numerous contradictions within Hinduism itself, but that is exactly because of its openness, in not being controlled by any single book or god or thought or personal authority, but open to all lines of thoughts and ideologies.

          You take out any scripture or any God out of Hinduism, and Hinduism still continues to exist. This it not the case with other religions. Hinduism says that all different religions or thoughts are different paths towards God or truth, so there is no problem in Hinduism if one happens to follow a different religious path, even the one which opposes it. Hinduism neither advocates any conversion for the same reason, when all paths are same, what is the need for it? Neither does it brand non-believers in Hinduism as sinners.

          Nor does its core vedas define a definitive action oriented God, God is described as IT, not he or she, and as a formless (Nirakara), opinionless (Nirvikara), attributeless (Nirguna) consciousness within which the entire Universe resides. And is defined as “Neti Neti”, neither this nor that – leaving it open to interpretations and investigations.

          All these make me feel that I am on a rational side of the society, providing me an opportunity to improvise upon any outdated philosophies and thoughts. If you see that religious history of Hinduism, the practices, rituals, way of life have all continuously evolved over time, everything practiced today doesnt come from any one single source or time period.

          I am not an atheist who says God does not exist. Nor am I a theist who says God exists just like another person exists, except that he has supernatural powers and can grant my wishes or punish me. My belief is that there definitely is a supreme consciousness which is responsible for the non-materialistic attributes in this universe and the core scriptures of hinduism, its philosophy, spiritual nature all allow me to explore this non-materialistic universal attribute. I believe in the existence of this non-materialistic nature of the universe because I EXIST. If the Universe were only what science explains today then we would have only had stars, planets, galaxies, and life would be just self propagating set of complex chemicals, BUT we are self conscious beings. We KNOW that we exist.

          If we create an intelligent robot no matter how intelligent it is or how human life it pretends to be, it would NOT be SELF AWARE, and this I guess is the core of the non-materialistic nature of the universe. Modern science is just starting to have a look at this aspect through quantum mechanics and its aspects like quantum consciousness.

  • Anonymous

    I’m not buying any of this. I am 100% genetically identical to myself. My brother would have some of my genes as he could have inherited them from my mom or dad. If incest were to happen between a brother and sister, the chances of homozygous recessive lethal genes is very high and the progeny would die (stillbirth or subsequently). As the number of common ancestors relating two people decrease the chances of the above scenario decreases rapidly. One can marry a distantly related cousin by this example. So how will marrying a random member of a population 7 billion strong be considered incestuous? Are you telling me that I am to ditch the love of my life based on this gothra concept; because she would be my “sister”? I laud and appreciate your patience and tolerance of other posters’ opinions, but I do not accept your conviction in this matter.

    • I=Indian

      Looks like you have not got the whole argument of the article in the first place. All that you have said applies for 45 other chromosomes in our cells, NOT for the Y Chromosome. There is no pairing for Y Chromosome to get rid of recessive lethal Y genes during meiosis.

      Read a geneticist saying “Y Chromosome is the only masturbating chromosome, while all other Chromosomes get involved in true sex with their partner chromosomes”.

      Y pairs with itself and hence can carry its lethal genes, if any for generations endlessly. If you marry a girl in the same Gotra then there are chances that she is carrying in her X Chromosome a portion of the same Y Chromosome (because her father will have same Y due to same Gotra). Now this exception is because ONLY 5% of Y pairs with X – 95% doesnt.

      Hence if that particular Gothra has a lethal gene, and if you have a son tomorrow, and if your wife carries that lethal gene from her father in her X, then isn’t it obvious that the lethal gene will express itself in the son because both the chromosomes now have the lethal gene.

      • Anonymous

        How can anyone justify the origins of this “gothram” system to begin with? It’s not like there were an arbitrary number of families at the beginning of time; like the flasks of E.coli in the Lenski experiment. To say that all Brahmins or whoever descended from these express number of families is a tall claim. Secondly how did that number come about? Don’t scripture me. :-)
        This whole concept revolves around the creation of “families” that bans marriage amongst themselves. This is as ridiculous as saying I can’t marry an Indian woman because we are all brothers and sisters. I would do the only smart thing and go for genetic counseling. As my final riposte to you sir, I present you with a paper published in The Lancet (doi:10.1016/S0140-6736(11)60201-8) that says that the child of an incestuous marriage can be noted for lack of heterozygosity. Now for argument sake, let’s marry say… a 1000 couples of the same “gothram” together and let’s have their children tested. Using standard mathematical confidence levels, if most of the children show mental challenges or otherwise, I’ll concede that the “Gothram” system may show some premise. Otherwise I stick to my guns and say it’s a load of utter tosh.

        • I=Indian

          Fair enough about statistical analysis of the claim.

          Coming to the initial number of families, it is not about scriptures as in some story telling books. It is from the ancient documented history where a system was setup by some initial number of teachers. The same like how a group of Buddhist monks started different forms of Buddhism. Or say how a group of Chinese who learn martial arts from Indian buddhist monks started different forms of martial arts and went on to have dedicated followers in each of these forms.

          I am sure the ancients weren’t nuts to simply sit and document with such great details the life of over 80-100 generations, the contemporary rulers, the geographies they ruled over, the battles and so on.

  • Kit Kittappa

    ‎”English word Cow is a derived word of the Sanskrit word Gau”

    The fact is Sanskrit not only shares word roots with Latin and other European languages but also shares the same sentence structure with them. It does not share the sentence structure of all Indian languages like Hindi, Tamil, Malayalam etc. That is the sentence structure of Indian languages is Subject — Object — Verb whereas in European languages and Sanskrit it is Subject — Verb — Object.

    English: Aswathama killed the elephant.
    Sanskrit: Aswathama hatha kunjaraha.
    whereas in
    Tamil: Aswathaman yanaai-ik kondran.
    Hindi: Aswathama hathi ko mardalia.
    Telugu: Aswathamudu yenuguni champesinadu.
    In fact that shows that Sanskrit is foreign to India. It so happens that Indian languages have borrowed words from Sanskrit. It appears lots of Sanskrit words were borrowed also when Buddhism and Jainism spread all over India.

    ‎”Prajapatis are those who were the immediate descendants of Brahma (the Creator God)”
    You would never find this statement in a scientific journal. It is just religious crap.

    • I=Indian

      Cool – you just changed the entire linguistic branching, but sad that you do not know that Ashwathama kunjararaha hatha is also an equally valid Sanskrit sentence.

    • Anonymous

      Linguistics is not as simple as that.

      Take for instance, in English and in western languages you need a connector in a sentence like “IS”, “ARE” etc
      For ex: My Name IS Anthony Gonzalves

      You do not need any connectors in any Indian languages INCLUDING Sanskrit. For instance
      in Sanskrit you say
      Mama Nama Anthony Gonzalves. Note there is no IS here.

      In Tamil you say
      En Pare Anthony Gonzalves

      In Telugu you say
      Naa Peru Anthony Gonzalves

      On the other hand in Hindi you say
      Mera Naam Anthony Gonzalves Hai – Note the use of is here (Hai=Is)

      So by your logic in this case, it is Hindi and not Sanskrit that is foreign to India. But as I said that is not how language theory works, just based on one observation :)

      So Sanskrit, Hindi, Tamil, Telugu, Bengali are all indigenous to India.

      Well, I can show you loads of statements by eminent physicists (especially quantum physicists) who have quoted what you call “religious crap” in Scientific Journals. Just read the biographies of Erwin Schrodinger, Heisenberg, Bohr, Bonn etc

  • Jyothivmallia

    Really a nice article

    • Anonymous

      Thank you Jyothi

  • sriram

    what evades me is if a male (Y) marries he is going to mix with female (X). how does it matter if it is from same gotra system or not? as you say X is multiple times mixed and matched over time. any input on this will make it more clear.

    • Anonymous

      Yes you are right, but the issues is with Y, which has 5% of it which mixes with X, so that female whom a male is marrying, if she is from the same Gotra, then she may get the same genes via her father’s Y, and so we have her X and her husband’s Y both containing the same genes in that 5% region.

  • Dynamicyadav

    Awesome…. Research… :)

    • Anonymous

      Thanks Dynamicyadav

  • Sukanya Shankar

    this is what sastras ie vedas have been stating and many of us know this truth say so this article is nothing new but give credit the person who posted as many a disbelievers should pay attention even if they did not those who know and follow know it any way.

    • I=Indian

      What do you mean by “nothing new”? Did you already know about Y Chromosomes, Genetics behind it etc. I am curious to know where sastras talk about all these. If it is already there in them then can you give a reference?

  • Ts Ashwinkumar

    wonderfully written article…!!!opens up my eyes to wat i thought was a stupid piece of myth…..!

    • Anonymous

      Thank you Ashwinkumar

  • Buddha Seeker

    Kudos to you – not for writing this article – but for your replies to all the comments – which shows your awareness about the subject in question.

    Articles are published everyday in thousands of blogs across the globe, most are copy pasted ones, and stop at that since the person who wrote it or copied it has no real knowledge about the topic. Only in rare blogs like yours there is an interactive discussion like the one happening here. And I see that happening within the fair boundaries of a healthy discussion, without the use of any abusive language in spite of provoking language in some comments. I salute to you for maintaining such a wonderful blog.

    • Anonymous

      Thank you Buddha Seeker.

  • Anonymous

    OK, it’s been about 4 years since I last touched my genetics text book, so I’ll argue on a different note. What about the other tribes of the world living in other countries who had no idea about this “gothram” system? They should have married within “family” statistically speaking and this should have caused a variety of disorders that would have caused the progeny to die and not carry on the deleterious gene to the next generation. Your claims that an ancient system is valid and beyond reproach BECAUSE it is ancient is pure nonsense. It’s like human sacrifice and leach therapy- just because it’s ancient, doesn’t necessarily prove its mettle.

    • Arjunishwar

      I couldnt agree more. This article is tantamount to saying a good fielder in the cricket field when he catches the ball, knows the exact projectile motion of the ball, its initial velocity, the air friction, and angular momentum, so that he can calculate the final velocity and position to catch it. Ofcourse he can’t know all that, but still catches it because man has been evolutionarily shaped to do so. Similarly if you study evolutionary stable systems, even at the animal level, they all carefully avoid inbreeding, because it is maladaptive. Not because they worked out the genetics of it.

      • I=Indian

        I dont think that the article anywhere claims that the ancients KNEW about Y Chromosome. It only tries to explain the science behind it. Infact the author himself says that he himself found out the link while reading Genetics.

        • Arjunishwar

          Well you should read the article more carefully. Just to quote one example “The Vedic Rishis had observed the degeneration of the Y Chromosome”

          • Anonymous

            There is another line just before that one. “So here is my conclusion about the creation of the Gotra system by the ancient learned Vedic Rishis” – meaning this is what I THINK about it. I guess I have the right for my opinion too :)

            Just like any other scientific theories where initially a theory is proposed and then it is tested for its claims, and it either wins the test or fails in it! At the end of the article, I have also said that

            “.. the veracity of the Gotra system can be checked by comparing the Y Chromosomes of males from different families of the same Gotra who are religiously following the Gotra system even today”

            So any experts in the field can conduct a statistical genetic analysis of the system and see where the claim stands! If the Gotra system is indeed scientifically protecting the Y Chromosome then I think it is fair enough to assume that the ancients KNEW about the Y Chromosome, isn’t it? Or do you think this too is “by accident” :)

      • I=Indian

        The famous scientist Fred Hoyle said about Evolution once

        “A junkyard contains all the bits and pieces of a Boeing-747, dismembered and in disarray. A whirlwind happens to blow through the yard. What is the chance that after its passage a fully assembled 747, ready to fly, will be found standing there?”

        • Arjunishwar

          That is not how evolution works buddy. It works in ever so slight progressive increase in complexity. The comparison with a Boeing747 is grossly misrepresented.

    • Anonymous

      Yes you are right, wherever there have been marriages within the same family, statistical studies have proved that the progeny suffer with Genetic disorders.
      For your reference http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage#Biological_aspects

      In April 2002, the Journal of Genetic Counseling released a report which estimated the average risk of birth defects in a child born of first cousins at 1.7–2.8% OVER an average base risk for non-cousin couples of 3%

      Also see the BBC report on the risk of cousin marriage – http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/newsnight/4442010.stm

      It discusses Pakistanis in Britain, 55% of whom marry a first cousin. The report states that these children from repeated generations of first cousin marriage are 13 times more likely than the general population to produce children with genetic disorders, and one in ten children of first-cousin marriages in Birmingham either dies in infancy or develops a serious disability. The BBC also states that Pakistani-Britons, who account for some 3% of all births in the UK, produce “just under a third” of all British children with genetic illnesses.

      I never claimed that an ancient system is valid just because it is ancient! Infact I have said in the article that experts in the field can conduct statistical analysis (by taking large samples) of the Y Chromosomes amongst all those families who are strictly following the Gotra system over generations and see what problems would arise if these Genes or Gotras inbreed. That would either prove or disprove the system in itself.

      By the way LEECH THERAPY is a FDA approved medical system of treatment in US and is one of the easiest treatments practiced even today by many doctors to get the body rid of toxins and pus near the wounds. FDA considers leeches as a medical device and the French firm Ricarimpex was the first medical firm to get FDA approval to use leech therapy :)

  • Arjunishwar

    Humans all over the world, for thousands of years considered and still consider incest to be largely unproductive . Does that mean they are “aware” of genetics too, and attempted to prevent inbreeding effects of homozygous recessive alleles? The author makes some grand conclusions, stemming from grand assumptions. He obviously does not know much about sexual reproduction and evolutionary stable strategies. The author is blinded by his preconceived notions of the Hindu system. Terribly unscientific.

    • Anonymous

      There is a lot of difference between considering incest to be unproductive and laying down a specific set of rules for it. Knowledge of Genetics need not necessarily mean knowledge of individual genes, even a statistical observation is enough. Otherwise how on earth can one call Gregor Mendel father of Modern Genetics? He never isolated any genes, he only did statistical observation via his plant experiments and laid down the rules, so by your logic Gregor Mendel should not be “aware” of genetics too :)

      I wont comment on your comment about my knowledge of genetics. I would be grateful instead if you can tell me what is UNSCIENTIFIC in this article about Genetics or Biology. I know the science behind most Hindu practices if not all and I stand by them. The scientific reasons behind the use of Tusli, Banana, Turmeric, Yoga, Ayurveda are all quite evident in modern science. And also the side effects of western medicines too, you take a tablet called Nimusulide which is said to cure head ache, only to later find that the same drug can also cause Strokes! And still one considers that to be scientific? Science has become a relative term in modern days, and people seem to believe that only 20th and 21st century scientists have patents over all scientific knowledge, and all our ancestors were fools.

      If just in the last 3-4 centuries we could achieve so much in the field of science and technology, wouldnt it be safe to atleast assume that our ancestral civilization which flourished for thousands of years and where those humans had the same able brains as ours would have achieved much more? Guess that becomes unscientific assumption??

      Would love to know your opinion about this article of mine
      http://www.hitxp.com/articles/veda/vedic-ancient-science-modern-technology-mathematics-geometry/

      • Arjunishwar

        Observing statistical differences is vastly different from what you are claiming in your post here. For example you say “The Vedic Rishis had observed the degeneration of the Y Chromosome “, which is such an outlandish claim. You ask me what is unscientific. These statements of facts are unscientific. You may say this is an assumption that cannot be dis-proven. Scientists make assumptions that is most likely to be true, and that fits with all the data. The fundamental principle of hypothesis generation is based on Occam’s razor. Your analogies with Mendel are disingenuous . Mendel gathered large amounts of evidence and carried out many experiments to prove his hypothesis. You are welcome to believe that ancient Rishis knew more about the physical world than we do now, but there is no evidence for that belief.
        About people thinking that out ancestors were fools, that is a strawman. Science is progressive and cumulative. Any high school student today can give Einstein a few lessons in quantum electrodynamics. Einstein himself may have a lot to explain to Newton if he met him. By no means is one a fool compared to the other. Similarly, our ancestors were intelligent people, as intelligent as us today. The only advantage we have is our place in time. Since the dawn of the age of reason and the development of the scientific method, out knowledge base has grown exponentially.

        • Anonymous

          Arjun Ishwar for 2012!!

        • Anonymous

          I disagree with you on this.

          Can you reason how the ancient Pyramids were built with so huge blocks of stones which weighed in tonnes, and still we see no such constructions for thousands of years after that, and only in the past 2-3 centuries have we be been able to build machinery which can attempt for constructions on scales as large as pyramids. Even today ask the engineers and they will tell you that it is VERY difficult to do constructions as big as Pyramids. So? Doesnt it show that the ancients had the advanced knowledge that we have today, or probably more than that? I can give you loads of such examples.

          Take the case of Vymanika Shastra – the ancient treatise on building aeroplanes – which was lost for generations due to lack of awareness about its importance in modern times by those who possessed it and its modern revelations show that it was indeed a great ancient manual on building aeroplanes and the dynamics of different possible structures.

          Science is cumulative only when there is continuity of accumulated knowledge without any calamities (natural or manmade) causing the chain to break. Thousands of ancient Indian knowledge texts were lost when the invading muslims burt entire ancient Indian universities down along with their libraries. A classic example is the burning down of Nalanda University by the Turkish Muslim invaders under Bakhtiyar Khalji in 1193 where the library books are said to be have been burning for days together!

          Why would there be so many shows on discovery and national geography to search for the ancient knowledge. Are they nuts? Why would Oppenheimer who was the father of modern atomic bomb say that when he saw the first atomic bomb explode at his Manhattan project site say that it resembled exactly the descriptions of a weapon of mass destruction mentioned in the Bhagavadgita? Was he nuts?

          Destruction of ancient knowledge due to calamities has happened not only in India but across the globe – you can check the history of any ancient civilizations.

          Even today in plastic surgery (especially in Rhinoplasty) the process followed is almost exactly the same as what Sushruta has described in his treatise Sushruta Samhita. Even today The paramedian forehead flap is referred to as the Indian flap. But note that most of these techniques were reinvented by the west in modern times. So your claim that scientific knowledge is always accumulative and grows exponentially is WRONG.

          If there is a third world war today and if all nuclear powers nuke out almost the entire planet, then we will be again starting from scratch and reinventing all the science and technology that has been invented so far over the next millenium.

          • Arjunishwar

            Oh , dont know where to start. First off, the Pyramids are just a bunch of rocks. They had all the time in the world to build it, and a lot of people to do it.
            Regarding ancient Indian knowledge, I agree that we had a lot of things going on for us, eg. Plastic surgery, Mathematics, Astronomy etc. But it is an enormously illogical to say that we knew far more than the evidence points. You can quote from the scriptures all you want, but it is analogous to Christians quoting from the bible that the earth is 6000 years old. We need multiple points of inquiry, and multiple tangible evidence to prove such theories.
            The great library of Alexandria had accumulated vast amounts of knowledge on geometry, mathematics and astronomy, until it was destroyed by the Romans in 50 BC. You dont see any reasonable person going around saying all that we are discovering now, has already been done so and documented in the library.
            They are showing documentaries in National Geographic and therefore it is a legitimate pursuit? If you believe that, then you must also believe in UFOs visiting U.S.A every day, because there are several documentaries on that too. The bottom line is all these claims rely heavily upon personal anecdotes and scriptures, rather than testable repeatable evidence.
            I repeat again, that science IS cumulative. But I did not say that science grows exponentially, if you read again, what I said was science today is growing exponentially. Please do not distort what I said, to assert your point.

            • Anonymous

              Wow, so you should definitely read the opinions of expert architects and engineers today who have created architectural wonders in modern world, and see what they have to say about the construction of Pyramids. Guess you have no idea then about the size of that each rock used in Pyramid construction. If given enough time in the world can a bunch of people lift 300,000 blocks of stones each ranging in weight from 2.5 tons to 15 tons? Come on.

              Even today what we have are only HYPOTHESES about how probably the pyramids would have been constructed. There is no specific scientific evidence of any one method.

              Dr. Craig B. Smith of the International architecture/engineering/construction management firm Daniel, Mann, Johnson, & Mendenhall (DMJM) in his paper
              “Program/Construction Management in 2550 BC: Building the Great Pyramid at Giza” says that

              “The logistics of construction at the Giza site are staggering when you think that the ancient Egyptians had no pulleys, no wheels, and no iron tools. Yet, the dimensions of the pyramid are extremely accurate and the site was leveled within a fraction of an inch over the entire 13.1-acre base. This is comparable to the accuracy possible with modern construction methods and laser leveling. That’s astounding. With their `rudimentary tools,’ the pyramid builders of ancient Egypt were about as accurate as we are today with 20th century technology.”

              Guess this statement from an expert in the field is way different from your statement “Pyramids are just a bunch of rocks. They had all the time in the world to build it, and a lot of people to do it. “

              I never said that ancient Indians knew EVERYTHING and what we know today, or more than what we know today in ALL the fields. But let us give them due credits for what all they knew. You cant put a system in place without knowing what it implies, though the terminology or the research methodology may differ between moderns and ancients.

              Obviously, what we quote from ancient books, if it is proved wrong, then there will be no takers for it! Be it the Bible or the Vedas. Vedas themselves say “Satyameva Jayate”, the truth ultimately triumphs. You rightly said that Bible says that the world is 6000 years old. On the other hand Hindu texts talk about a universal cycle of creation and destruction in terms of billions of years, and say that our present universe is around 155 billion years old – now compare this with modern science which says that the Universe may be around 15-20 billion years old.

              To quote Carl Sagan, the famous Astrophysicist

              The Hindu religion is the only one of the world’s great faiths dedicated to the idea that the Cosmos itself undergoes an immense, indeed an infinite, number of deaths and rebirths. It is the only religion in which the time scales correspond, to those of modern scientific cosmology. Its cycles run from our ordinary day and night to a day and night of Brahma, 8.64 billion years long. Longer than the age of the Earth or the Sun and about half the time since the Big Bang. And there are much longer time scales still.

              Now we can again probably conclude that Carl Sagan is being unscientific here :)

              About UFOs, though I dont think that they visit us everyday, it would be naive to assume that we are the only intelligent species in this vast universe. We have evolved around a recent star in the life of the universe (Sun), and have known science very recently compared to the universal lifetime. I definitely believe that there are intelligent life forms much much more advanced than ours own in the vastness of this universe, and if we can try to explore other parts of the solar system within just few centuries of our technological evolution, it is quite obvious that intelligent life forms elsewhere from other far away stellar systems could have attempted to come here and explore us.

              I never meant to distort your sentence, I never intend to do so just to prove my points, because that would mean that I myself am not confident about what I am talking about.

              Point taken on your opinion “science today is growing exponentially”, but I stand by my argument that Science is cumulative ONLY when there is continuous passing down of knowledge. If there are historical breaks where civilizations get wiped out, then their knowledge dies with them, and the later civilizations will start afresh reinventing what the earlier ones had already invented. A lot of modern science from the west is a reinvention of the ancient eastern findings.

              Just to quote Albert Einstein

              “We should be thankful to Indians who taught us how to count without which no worthwhile scientific discoveries would have been possible”. And he was referring to the invention of place value system and zero in ancient India which is the fundamental basis of all modern science and technology. Just try to do simple multiplication (forget advanced math like Calculus) using European Roman Numeral System and you will see the point Einstein was trying to make in his quote.

              • Arjunishwar

                You have mistaken my stance. I am greatly in debt to our ancestors, and am indeed proud to be an Indian. All those quotes from famous scientists are correct, and I am not taking any credit away from us.

                Regarding the egyptian pyramids, ofcourse we have different hypothesis. That is how science works. Science also says that the most likely one is often the correct one. It is hard to trace what exactly happened. But most of the valid hypothesis seriously considered by the scienfitic community today does not assume higher technology by our ancestors. There is a difference between representing the ideas of a scientific community and that of a single scientist. I can find you “experts” in geology today who still advocate young earth creationism. But no one takes them seriously.

                Carl Sagan was indeed fascinated by how our sense of history of the universe correlated strongly with the cosmological timescale, but he was very quick to clarify that it was “no doubt, by accident” that our foreknowledge corresponded. What you are doing here is a classic case of cherry picking, and you are automatically subject to confirmation bias.

                • Anonymous

                  Good to hear that you acknowledge the achievement of the ancients.

                  But I guess you didnt get my stance about the Pyramids. The very fact that they built it with an equal precision as that of one possible by modern technology proves that science is NOT cumulative. 5000 years ago the Egyptians had the ability to build what technology today would have built, but not possible by technology 500 years back. So Science is NOT cumulative.

                  I can quote you dozens of quotes by eminent quantum physicists like Bohr, Schrodinger, Heisenberg etc who have said how close the vedic philosophy is to Quantum Physics. We can either again say that even this is “by accident” just like other knowledge of the ancients, or acknowledge that ancients definitely knew something similar though their methodology might have been different.

                  Sometimes I wonder, how lucky the ancient Indians might have been to know (or guess) so many scientific facts “By Accident” :)

                  • Arjunishwar

                    When the pyramids were built , the egyptians were living in a totally different world, with isolated pockets of civilization, no way of communicating with each other. But now, we have a global network, capable of documenting knowledge, and passing it down our generations. By cumulative, I meant science is a sort of self feeding mechanism, were one avenue of knowledge grows on top of another. Even if the egyptians had superior technology (which I still deny, since there isnt a shred of evidence), it doesnt negate the fact that science is cumulative.

                    Now, I do not know if you quote mined Sagan by accident or on purpose, but by “accident” Sagan did not mean that the timescale of 8.6 billion years was arrived at by accident. What he meant was the fact that it corresponded with modern cosmology (compared to the other religions) was an accident. You yourself have conceded that this value is wrong. So, there is nothing to argue there.

                    Btw, are you on facebook or something? We can continue this conversation somewhere else, because it is getting rather tedious in here.

                    • Anonymous

                      Exactly that is what I said earlier, Science is cumulative only when there is continuity in the civilization and generational transfer of knowledge. The ancients were living in a isolated civilization too because a lot has transpired since then – the Mahabharatha war, the later Greek invasion, the impact of Buddhism, The Mughal and other islamic invasions, then the Colonial rule, and then finally our own political misrule, and so on. So the knowledge of the ancients was lost to a large extent.

                      I didnt say IT IS wrong, I said it MAY BE wrong. Two centuries back science said Universe was a few million years old, and then it became a few billion, then it went on for 20 billion, and even today’s value is a guesstimate in cosmology assuming the sanctity of the cosmological constants, and I bet that this value will change in the next two decades once the dark matter mystery is resolved :)

                      Sorry I am on facebook but not as a regular, no time to make Zuckerberg rich :)
                      Anyway I enjoyed this conversation a lot, and thank you very much for that.

              • Arjunishwar

                I just found the original Sagan quote
                “The Hindu religion is the only one of the world’s great faiths dedicated to the idea that the Cosmos itself undergoes an immense, indeed an infinite, number of deaths and rebirths. It is the only religion in which time scales correspond, no doubt by accident, to those of modern scientific cosmology. Its cycles run from our ordinary day and night to a day and night of Brahma, 8.64 billion years long, longer than the age of the Earth or the Sun and about half the time since the Big Bang. And there are much longer time scale still”

                WOW HOW CLEVER OF YOU TO CUT OF THE “NO DOUBT BY ACCIDENT” PART!!!

                • Anonymous

                  Oops! I didnt do it intentionally, the above quote without “no doubt by accident” was the one which I found everywhere, so I searched the original video on youtube and you are right. Here it is
                  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ugyrzr5Ds8o
                  The quote starts somewhere near 5:57 in the video.

                  But then, if you look at the way the calculations are arrived at for 8.64 billion years, it definitely is “NOT BY ACCIDENT”. It may or may not be wrong, but definitely it is NOT by accident. Accident is something like Pythagoras theorem where he states a theorem without providing any proof of it. And Voltaire has said that Pythagoras had been to the banks of river Ganges to learn mathematics.

                  On the other hand the cosmic time scale, is an actual calculation based on the yuga system, so it is definitely NOT by an accident. It may be wrong according to modern cosmology, but there still is a calculation process involved there. When science textbooks talk about how Galileo tried to estimate the speed of light, even though that calculation came very near to the actual value, but was incorrect, still nobody says Galileo arrived that value “BY ACCIDENT” :)

            • (”>

              To add to what Gurdev said we have found a new species on earth itself at California’s Mono Lake which uses arsenic for creating its DNA and Proteins which suggests that life forms may be present in planets which were previously considered to not having any lifeforms based on the elements available there. For reference http://arstechnica.com/science/news/2010/12/bacteria-can-integrate-arsenic-into-its-dna-and-proteins.ars This one from National Geographic CH http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2010/12/101202-nasa-announcement-arsenic-life-mono-lake-science-space/
              Now that we know this , who knows there could be lifeforms on SUN and Stars feeding on He and H and getting energy from Nuclear Fusion and Fission :) To add to this I do believe in Aliens coz I hv seen UFO’s around 5-6 of them when I was small around in 1992-93 in shape of Tubelights blue in colour :)

              • (”>

                The long tubelights which we used to use earlier.

                • I=Indian

                  Looks like both you and UFOs were really small then, dont mind just kidding :)

                  • (”>

                    :D :D

              • Arjunishwar

                The bacteria incorporating arsenic in its DNA backbone has not been proven substantially. The NASA guys went to the press directly, without going through the process of peer review, and once the storm passed, scientists were quick to figure out that arsenic DID NOT replace phosphorous in the DNA backbone. A simple X-ray crystallography revealed that.
                Even if that was true, its one thing to say that life forms exist outside earth(which I think they do, given the vastness of our universe), but totally another to say intelligent lifeforms with technological superiority visit us everyday in flying saucers. The fact that you have “seen” UFOs is a personal anecdote which is not considered evidence. :)

                • I=Indian

                  Your opinion of modern science seems to be as if that modern science is a complete science.

                  Modern science cannot answer loads of scientific questions even today. All scientists are breaking their heads on the existing incomplete set of theories.

                  As Gurudev has stated in one of his earlier articles, vedas have always said that the universe is full of vibrations and called it OM. Modern Science said, No it is full of Quantum Particles. But that did not answer all the questions. Now they have finally come up with String Theory which says that, Universe is full of Vibrating Strings – Did not vedas say this in such a simple terminology?

                  What is Dark Matter? What happens inside a Black Hole? How can a bird’s fossil be found during Dinosaur period if birds evolved from Dinosaurs? Why are there mathematical infinites all over quantum mechanics? What does Schrodinger’s equation exactly mean? So on and so forth.

                  So why should I look out for the certification of this incomplete system to endorse my views? Your view is like what ancient Europeans said, “Earth is the center of the universe”. Has God given in writing that out of the trillions of Earth like planets and solar systems like that of our own in this Universe, he will create Intelligent Life ONLY on Earth?

                  • Arjunishwar

                    I have no such opinions of modern science. Ofcourse science does not have all the answers, but it is the best tool we have of solving these problems. Ancient European’s geocentric view is totally legitimate given the evidence they had. In light of new evidence , opinions and conclusions change. That is the humility of science. Take a look at this video and you will know what i am talking about
                    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eA86N8K4VBI

                    • I=Indian

                      In that way, even ancient Tribal views are legitimate based on the evidence they had. But the point you are missing is that the ancient Indians texts more than a thousand year old than these ancient Europeans talk about a helio centric world. Now the humility of modern science is it does not give due credit to those who deserve it. Nicolas Tesla was a greater scientist compared to Edison, yet credit is always given to Edison who tried to push down Tesla in all ways. Most Russian Scientists are great scientists than western scientists, yet because of the cold war attitude they are not given the credits they deserve. THIS is the humility of modern science.

                    • Arjunishwar

                      you are confusing science history with science. Science doesnt care who came up with the idea first. All science cares about is if it works or not.

                    • I=Indian

                      You are confusing science as if it is a personified impartial judge – It is finally the scientific community ie the humans who reveal the science – and this includes one scientist who suppresses the discoveries of the other thereby hiding it from the SCIENCE – and this includes Multi National Companies who pay scientists to create data favoring their products again there by hiding the truth from the SCIENCE and so on. How can science find the actual truth if it is hidden by humans? For instance when Edison overrided Tesla, the Science was that Direct Current is better than Alternating Current. Only after Edison’s time was over that the science update itself saying that Alternating Current is better than Direct Current. So Science is not some impartial judge out there who can reveal the truth irrespective of its human face. Science is COMPLETELY dependent on the human side of it.

                    • Arjunishwar

                      Ofcourse Science, like any human endeavor is subject to human bias. But it is the only system designed specifically to avoid it. Things like repeatability, double blindedness, controls, testability, predictability and a lot more. Please try to understand the system before undermining the one system without which you wouldnt be able to live today.

                  • Anonymous

                    Hiya I=Indian. Thanks for your opinion,now here’s mine. The Vedas could have said that the universe could have been made of vibrating samosas, but it had no mathematical framework to back that up. But string theory does. Science is a dependable framework that admits that it does not know everything, but it does an amzing job explaining natural occurences better than religion ever will. And based on your questions in the last para, I will admit that you have a limited knowledge of astrophysics, genetics and evolutionary biology. I suggest Brian Greene’s Fabric of the Cosmos, Dawkins’ Greatest show on Earth and The Problem with physics by Lee Smolin. These should address your questions. And finally science is like a Linux distro: we are open source, free to learn and improve on and always open to changes in our framework provided you show us the maths, chemistry etc behind it.

                    • I=Indian

                      I am sure you have not read the vedas nor do you know Sanskrit, else you would not have talked of it in such a lighter vein. They are not some religious texts talking about some tribal thoughts. Dont read them either, just read the thoughts of various quantum physicists on the vedas and upanishads and see the kind of regards they had for these texts. I am sure you agree that they knew more about quantum mechanics than you or I do.

                    • Anonymous

                      Isn’t it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?

                • (”>

                  Didnt know the latest updates of that NASA news.Thanks for updating but There can also be a possibility of life forms existing in inhabitable environments according to humans. Science is just evolving. So many things not known earlier are discovered everyday. No one believed in a trip to moon before actually being made.
                  My family actually saw fluorescent UFO’s .Would you only believe in it when you actually see them.Are so many people wrong. In that way you can even doubt the entire History as you havent actually seen it happening.
                  What is your reason behind rejecting a possibility that aliens visit us on a daily basis?
                  Can you disprove my claim and the claim of several others in the world. And speaking of those theories that are put forward to suppress them are more ridiculous . There are many cases where many people in the city have collectively seen them. There are cases which have not been disproved even by their ridiculous theories.
                  Why dont you stop debating and give it a thought for one sec? Is it like you just want to prove your point. In that case just for your sake I am ready to lose.

                  • Arjunishwar

                    I have a green dragon in my backyard, and it talks to me everyday. It takes me to the moon , and Mars every night. It is invisible and has superpowers. Now, can you disprove that? That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

                    • Anon

                      ROFL :)

                    • (”>

                      Thats just you saying some random stuff. If it were that many people across the globe were saying the same story then even I would have thought about it. I don’t blame you I don’t know if I hadn’t seen them then may be I would have questioned it. Ok I don’t have any evidence saying I am right. But there is nothing to turn down the possibility that intelligent life forms exist. I just said there are too many people who have seen them across the world, so many people saying something globally can they all be lying. Well there are so many evidences given in recorded tapes. In India there have been records by pilots seeing them, ATC at Kolkata has seen something like that. A person I know in US has also taken pics of one he had seen. Some are hoaxes but many of the reported cases are not disproved.

                    • Arjunishwar

                      Well, thats a typical argumentum ad populum, or appeal to the masses
                      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum

                    • (“>

                      I come in minority here. In fact tthere are many who dont believe in it. In fact your argument is an appeal to masses

                  • Anonymous

                    Well for one, for aliens to visit us they need to traverse long distances and for that they need near light speeds, which is highly improbable to be built that supports the mass of the spaceship. Plus why would they unneccesarily show up and disappear? One should imagine that if they were smart as hell, they would land and kill us all or atleast contact us. Yet they conviniently choose to appear for few seconds or to kidnap only some people? I’m sorry mate, I do not mean to sound rude or condescending, but Arjun is making valid statements based on science and rationale. It is you who is making foolish statements and making others reading this question your sanity. Tell the aliens that I said hi!

                    • (“>

                      Near light speeds are very improbable but not impossible. We could have never imagined to travel beyond the speed of sound but eventually we succeeded in developing such machines. Its your opinion that my statements sound ridiculous to you. And what do you mean by valid statements. Who knows if they were aliens they could be humans building UFO’s based on study from Vaimanic Shastra.

                    • Anonymous

                      Near light speeds are possible for particles like electrons and such. It is absolutely impossible for larger objects to approach even 50% SOP, because the energy required to propel the mass would be indefinitely high. That’s just basic physics. And I’m sorry to say that you are truly deluded if you were to think that we are building UFOs based on some moldy old text. Either that or you are a poe ( not a swear word, see Poe’s law on Wikipedia).

                    • (“>

                      read how far can one travel from the earth? section fromhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faster-than-light . Quite interesting.

                    • (“>

                      read how far can one travel from the earth? section fromhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faster-than-light . Quite interesting.

                  • (“>

                    I apologize for being discourteous. In fact it might have provoked you to comment further, just like reverse psychology. I was a bit in a hurry.

          • Anonymous

            Dude, if the whole world was nuked, we would be all dead from radioactive fallout. The survivors would be so badly poisoned that they would die in days if not months. Crops could never grow. You know that even today the area around Chernobyl is a ghost town, 25 years on? It’s not going to be like one of those fanciful tales where the whole world rewinds back to goody-goody yuga from the so called Kali Yuga.

            • Anonymous

              :) I meant like world used in the term world war, though it was called a world war, not all countries in the world took part in it. In the modern world it is the scientifically and technologically rich countries that possess most of the nukes, and in case of a world war they will nuke out each other. And that will cause most of our scientific knowledge to be lost – obviously.

              But then none of these countries are going to nuke, say some sub saharan country, or the countries which are not involved in this battle in anyway. And geographies isloated and far away from the radiation zones are definitely going to have survivors, because in case of such war it would be mostly the thickly populated cities of developed countries that would be the target.

              So the left over population will definitely take over. A nuclear world war cannot wipe out humanity completely. No decision taking leader will be left after the initial one or two nukes fired. Just look at Japan, inspite of having two nukes over its cities, what is the population of those cities in just half a century after the incident. So if this is the case of direct targets, then isolated geographies are definitely going to survive.

    • Krishna Shastry

      Even I hate people
      who simply try to provide justification to our ancient practices with shallow
      arguments and unrealistic examples. However, I found this article not to be one
      such pseudo science article. Instead, this article displays genuine interest
      towards science and presents a logical theory with willingness to learn/explore
      further and accept mistakes if found later.

       

      Maybe there were some
      great men in ancient days who indeed had unimaginable power to know scientific
      truths without actually conducting practical experiments. Maybe such thing is
      possible even today, but no one spends that kind of time and energy in doing ‘tapasya’
      and utilizing brain’s fullest potential – because we are all skeptics.

       

      Brain’s powers can be
      quite unusual and unimaginable for common men – can you imagine playing
      blindfold chess with numerous people simultaneously and winning most of them?
      Some grandmasters too. There are people like Shakuntala Devi who can calculate
      like super computers. Maybe there are people who can connect with universal
      energy and do more.

       

      Anyway, it is also
      possible that some people sensed the Y chromosome thing through practical
      observations for a long time – they indeed had lot of time, right?

       

      Here it is not about
      glorifying assumptions and miracles. There are several logical points also in
      this article. One big assumption is the 5% crossover and Gurudev has clearly
      stated that it’s a theory and assumption, and humbly said it needs to be
      researched further. He has also said that concept of prajapatis, rishis etc. are
      probably symbolic instead of real characters.

       

      Overall, this is
      definitely not an article that can be brushed aside as pseudo science.

  • THE REAL TRUTH PLEASE

    Let’s say there is a poor village where dowry is a big problem ( a common example I am sure). A man has two beautiful daughters who he prefers to wed within his family to avoid dowry (I am using your own example).
    Let’s say he has his own brother who has two sons and his wife has a sister who also has two sons. Which side of the family will he pick?
    His wife’s sister’s sons right – because her sister’s son’s have a different Gothra!!
    Now tell me which is scientifically safer probabilistically?

    His brother’s sons share none of his X chromosome that his daughters have, but his wife’s sister’s sons would very likely all have the same X chromosome that his daughters do!
    Thereby after marriage most of his grandchildren would all likely die soon after birth or be born with serous defects or with compromised immune systems! This is again proved fact by your own article!! Had he married them off to his brother’s son’s all his grand children may have survived fine!

    Now tell me how has the Gothra system not been responsible for all these deaths?
    This example above is not a random one – It has been happening throughout history and worse – IT HAPPENS EVEN TODAY!!

    MANY PEOPLE CONTINUE TO FOLLOW THE FAULTY GOTHRA SYSTEM AND END UP MARRYING THE WRONG SIDE OF THE FAMILY

    Whatever the advantages that you claim of saving Y chromosome is FAR OUTWEIGHED by in-numerous, countless deaths that is caused by following it.

    Following the GOTHRA system statistically makes your grandchildren more susceptible and it is arguably a clear RECIPE FOR DISASTER – it is a system that can murder newly borns and should be discontinued AT ONCE!
    I am not against the vedas or hindus or any other community, but when something is KILLING AND MURDERING I felt I should SPEAK UP.
    Please prove me wrong!

    • Anonymous

      The scenario you mentioned is perfectly valid and accurate BUT,

      The Gotra system does not recommend either of the above marriages. Nor does the modern scientific facts recommend this cross cousin marriages. So to get a marriage done due to a social problem (within the same family) and then blame it on Gotra system wouldnt be correct. The real culprit in this case is the dowry system, a social evil – not the Gotra system. We need to be KILLING the dowry system first, which is resulting in so many cross-cousin marriages in the society.

      The very purpose of the Gotra system has been to prevent marriages within the same family and immediate blood relatives (first cousins), and it EXTENDS this rule by restricting same Gotra marriages outside the families. So in this case the Gotra system does not recommend either of the above marriages – neither to mother’s sisters children, not to his brother’s children.

      To quote the Gotra system – ‘When the man and woman do not belong to six generations from the maternal side and also do not come from the father’s lineage, marriage between the two is good.’

      So obviously the above marriage scenario belonging to first generation in the maternal side is definitely out of question in the Gotra system. So please do not blame the Gotra system without knowing its complete rules. It would be like blaming relativity for saying the speed of light is constant, without knowing that relativity also states that time dilates and length contracts :)

      Unfortunately, we have many fake religious gurus in the society who have partial knowledge of the systems and customs and hence bring a bad name to the otherwise well intentioned system due to their half baked practices.

      • THE REAL TRUTH PLEASE

        Yes Right – Blame the dowry system, blame so-called fake gurus, blame that poor brahmin man for not knowing about chromosomes! That poor fool!
        (I knew you would do this)

        Just so you know. Marriage to sister’s daughter and uncle’s son has neither been prohibited by gothra system nor condemned. It is in fact very popular! What you claim in bold about six generations – I dare you to ask several non-fake religious gurus to validate this! Chances are they wont even know about it! And strangely enough you might just find that marrying someone from the same gothra is almost never going to be dangerous scientifically!

        REBEL AGAINST THE GOTHRA AND YOUR GRANDCHILDREN ALL SURVIVE — EXPLAIN THAT!!!


        The ones affected are not the sons mind you, they carry the non-pairing Y chromosomes and escape! It is the poor daughters who are affected!
        Any guesses why brahmin women have never really excelled at sports?
        Any guesses why Keralite women who follow matriarchal system excel at sports so well – PT Usha, Malleshwari, Just all coincidence is it?
        Any guesses why Kerala is the only state where females exceed males in population?

        Great writers like you should write responsibly, please remember that your article is creating waves! I hope it is for the right reason! If you had any sense – you would condemn this Gothra system in its current form with tooth and nail.

        Women are you even reading this?!!

        • Anonymous

          Come on now, Gotra System was created to prevent inbreeding within the same families. How on earth can you say that it is because of Gotra system that a father is giving his daughters in marriage to his wife’s sister’s sons? Can you show me ONE reference where Gotra system allows it? I can show you many where Gotra system is clearly against it. How on earth can Gotra system be responsible for a first cousin marriage happening due to dowry system?

          The above rule I quoted in bold is an actual Gotra rule from Manusmriti 3/5, to quote the actual Sanskrit lines

          AsapiMDAchayA mAtur sagOtrAchayA pituH |
          sA praShasthA dvijAtInAM dArakarmaNi maithune ||

          Ask anybody who knows Sanskrit and he/she will tell you that this means

          When the man and woman do not belong to six generations from the maternal side and also do not come from the father’s lineage, marriage between the two is good

          If any religious guru or expert does not know this, then is that a problem of the Gotra system? It is like somebody reading the scriptures partially and coming to their own set of conclusions.

          I have answered your question with great patience and have made it clear that Gotra system DOES NOT allow any cousin marriages as stated in the above scenario by you, so where is the question of it being the cause for all these problems? If there is a fake doctor in the society who is causing more illness in the people because of his incomplete knowledge, can we then blame the MBBS courses and medical colleges for that?

          How on earth can one blame the Gotra system if a person marries his daughter’s to their first cousins to get rid of a social evil like dowry system? I am not understanding why are you blaming the Gotra system for it inspite of I showing it to you that the Gotra system DOES NOT allow these marriages for the very same reasons stated by you that they are more likely to cause genetic disorders.

          Also I have never stated any line of mine saying that Gotra system should be IMPOSED on one and all, the article has just tried to make a scientific analysis of the system, and so far I see no UNSCIENTIFIC reason behind the Gotra system. I have even said in the article that, experts in the field can make statistical DNA analysis of generations who are religiously following this Gotra system and come to conclusions based on that.

          Where have I said anything AGAINST women in this? Guess you haven’t read my article http://www.hitxp.com/articles/culture/happy-womens-day/
          I am a stronger proponent of women’s role in the society than most women themselves.

          Why should I condemn the Gotra system if it is not saying anything unscientific? Infact look at the statistics link I provided http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage#Biological_aspects which clearly say that one should not marry within the cousins. The above scenario of a father giving his daughters to his wife’s sisters sons in marraige is NOT approved in the Gotra system as shown in the above scripture, so HOW is the Gotra system UNSCIENTIFIC? It infact maintains a scientific male lineage via the Y Chromosomes. So?

          And finally about Brahmins not being sportsmen. Brahmin heredity has been for generations in the knowledge society, education, research and scholarship – not in sports or other physical work oriented fields. I can show you thousands of Brahmins who have achieved great success in the knowledge industry just in the last 10 years, not just in India but across the world, and most of them are reknown names in their respective fields. Gotra system has not caused the intelligence of the community to come down? Right?

          But then, 85% of the population in the country are neither Brahmins, nor do they follow Gotra system – and still how many sportsmen or sportswomen are there within this population? Guess you got the answer for that. In India there is no encouragement for sports outside Cricket and Tennis to some extent. And there is bloody politics everywhere. There are scores of sports talents waiting out there for an opportunity and proper coaching, the only problem they have is no funds and no influence. So please dont blame the Gotra system for that.

          • THE REAL TRUTH PLEASE

            Well I respect your knowledge, I wish this Sanskrit verse had found mention in your main post because I assure you, it is truly unfortunate that not many are aware of it!

            My point is really very simple. As you state beautifully in your HitXP article, women are 100% women and men are 50% men. Women carry more useful genetic info via their X chromosomes. Simple inference says this also means that a mother side of family is 50% more like kin than father side. Gothra system proposes the exact opposite and here lies its FUNDAMENTAL FLAW.

            Based on your wiki link about cross cousin marriages itself, if we make a simple list of what science forbids and allows, we can see that a matriarchal Gothra system will also differ with what science allows and forbids but the number of such differences will be 50% lesser than that of the current patriarchal system. A system that differs with what science says in more ways than a close alternative should be labelled UNSCIENTIFIC right?

            In the absence of knowledge of this Sanskrit verse, we can also easily discover that a maternal Gothra system will protect the grand daughters from a possible similar X-X match better, thereby letting nature take its own course. I notice you tactfully avoided my example of Kerala women earning our female gold medals and excelling better in athletic sports, having a gender ratio favoring females, and who knows hence having a 100% literacy rate?

            In today’s world the number of literate people far exceeds the number of educated ones. Your articles are insightful. I please that you also please reflect on its implications.

            In current article, science and simple logic will tell you that the Brahmin Gothra system may maintain lineage identity but offers no real benefits and only possible trouble for practical purposes like marriages.

            • Anonymous

              True, I understand that not many are aware of it, but this article was mainly about exploring the science behind the Gotra System, not about the explaining the system itself in detail :)

              Also nowhere have I proposed that one should strictly follow it, for things like marriages are personal choices and should be left to it. This is just a scientific analysis of the system, and if one wants to follow it one can, else leave it. As simple as that.

              Again as I said, the Gotra system DOES NOT differ with science because it does not allow any cousin marriages at all! Now yes, matriarchal Gotra system if practiced have a definite edge over patriarchal, BUT it would maintain a female lineage inside the nuclear DNA, because unlike Y Chromosome which maintains a male lineage there is NOTHING like this in nuclear DNA for female lineage. However a matriarchal Gotra system does indeed maintain a female lineage via mitochondrial DNA because that is similar to Y Chromosome in terms of its uniqueness.

              I dont think I avoided your mentioning of sportswomen in Kerala, I answered it saying it has nothing to do with Gotra system. It is basically about which gender gets more rights, and in patriarchal system men dominate and so men excel, and in matriarchal system it is just the other way round.

              If you look at the list of Indian sportswomen http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Indian_sportswomen
              you can see that most of them come from patriarchal system. So it is not just about patriarchal or matriarchal, it is about how a family recognizes the rights of its female child, or for that matter both children. It shouldnt happen that we create a system where one gender rules over the other. We should create a system where both genders have equal rights and opportunities and share the responsibilities and benefits equally.

              But matriarchal system definitely has an edge over patriarchal because women are more closer to their families and know more about the needs and wants than men. And in Hinduism female divinity is more powerful than all other male divinity put together, not without any reason :)

              We should never blame a system if somebody is misusing it when it never intended to be so. It is the misuser who is at fault, not the system. If powerful people are misusing law to favor their misdeeds, then it is the lack of implementation of law that needs to be addressed, not blame the law itself.

              • Anonymous

                Have further updated the article by appending the above quote at the end of it with a reference to your comments.

                • Krishna Shastry

                  Dear Gurudev, I think
                  “THE REAL TRUTH PLEASE” has one valid point i.e. hardly anyone knows about 6
                  generation stuff you are talking about from maternal side. Is this really defined
                  by Gothra system? I don’t think so; maybe it is a supplementary clause.

                   

                  What practical
                  methodologies have been provided for maternal side identification? From
                  paternal side there is gothra name, pravara etc. But how can one easily
                  identify 6 generation lineage from maternal side? I think there is none – and hence
                  that part was forgotten over the period of time, and hence resulted into
                  unscientific practices that exist today. So, indirectly Gothra system does have
                  to take some blame in the situation described by him.

                   

                  But is matriarchal gothra
                  system the right solution? Is it superior to patriarchal gothra system? If
                  science says most genetic diseases are due to X chromosome and Y’s role is extremely
                  less, then there is indeed something to ponder upon here. Considering that X
                  chromosomes have ability to improvise through crossover, maybe it is not really
                  required to concentrate on lineage from maternal side beyond 6 generations. Regarding
                  scene in Kerala, even though Kerala has matriarchal system, as far as I know
                  they don’t follow any matriarchal gothra system. Do they ensure separation for
                  6 generation lineage? Is it more or less? I am not very sure. Experts can share
                  their thoughts.

                   

                  Maybe the gothra
                  system should have provided a practical way to identify 6 generation female
                  lineage also and should have helped people in strictly discouraging those marriages
                  too such as the one explained above. Without this, maybe the existing gothra
                  system should be seen as something with a flaw. Kindly share your thoughts.

  • Rockstar

    This definitely is an excellent piece of analysis, and being an ardent fan of both Genetics and the knowledge of our ancestors, I enjoyed every bit of the article. Way to go.

    • Anonymous

      Thank you Rockstar.

  • myth_buster

    the article is similar to “intelligent design” articles which try to justify a system as scientific even though human experience via its practice over the ages have shown it as an unscientific one. Most genetic disorders are X-linked disorders and not Y-linked.

    Also the article without any evidence claims that the “rishis” were aware of genetics even though there is no application of the them in the Ayurveda which an Indian medical system.The western medical system has used the knowledge of genetics towards devising diagnosis, prevention and cure of many genetics diseases.We don’t see the same happening with Ayurveda.

    • Anonymous

      What is wrong in the cliam that Gotra System does indeed maintain a Y-Chromosome drive male lineage? Define what the Gotra system is all about to any biologist and he will tell you that it definitely maintains a Y-Chromosome specific male lineage. I mean come on, this is not unscientific in any way. Gotra System does maintain a unique Y lineage.

      Now coming to Genetic disorders, just because there are very little Y-linked genetic disorders, does that mean we should not worry about them? I mean what is the harm if there is a system built to prevent that?

      Well, evidence need not necessarily always be unidirectional. For instance in relativity, we arrive at space-time interval invariance via lorentz transformations ASSUMING that speed of light is a constant in all frames of reference. Name a scientific theory and I can show you an assumption. So what is wrong if I based on the Y-Chromosome feature of Gotra system assumed that the Rishis knew about Genetics? Do 20th-21st century scientists own a patent on genetics barring all other earlier people from knowing it?

      How many genetic diseases have western medical science CURED? Can you name a few please? Mere finding of reasons behind the diseases is not curing them. To cure genetic diseases you will have to rewrite the genetic code of all the disease causing genes of a person affected by that disease or atleast in the related organs if the disease is organ specific. How can you cure Down syndrome or Turner syndrome?

      Sickle-cell Anaemia, Phenylketonuria, Haemophilia, Klinefelter’s syndrome,Color blindness, Cystic fibrosis, Haemochromatosis etc – for how many of these genetic diseases there exists a cure? Genetic diseases RARELY have any treatment. The Gene Therapy which is a hope to cure genetic diseases is still in its infancy.

      Coming back to Ayurveda, who said Ayurveda doesnt talk about Genetics? Genetic diseases are called the diseases occuring due to Beeja Dosha (defecitve genes) in Ayurveda and are categorized into various categories like
      1. Adibalapravitta – Genetic diseases caused due to defective genes coming from parents
      2. Janambalapravitta – Diseases caused by weakening or mutating of genes due to poor nutrition or excessive stress experienced by mother during pregnancy, for instance hunchback child, dwarf child, blindness etc
      and so on.

      Unlike western medicine, Ayurveda DOES NOT treat the disease on its own, instead it aims at strengthening our body defenses to fight the disease on its own. That is the main reason why Ayurvedic medicines have no side effects. They dont intrude into body functions.

      Western medical system is a supplementary medical system which overrides body defenses via drugs like pain killers, anti histamines etc. You wont find any such instant relief in Ayurveda normally. Western medicines have side affects. I can write loads of articles on this where one medicine aimed at solving one problem creates a new problem in the body. Nimusulide for instance used as a pain killer for head aches is known to cause strokes!

      Ayurveda is a complementary medical system which aims at strengthening the body defense systems allowing the body to fight it out on its own. All Ayurvedic medicines are herbal based and have NO side effects. Ayurveda is not something you go for only when there is an illness, it can act as a way of life if you follow its daily recommendations of herbal products. There are different ayurvedic tonics and mixtures which one can take everyday to strengthen ones immune systems continuously – The famous Dabur Chyavanprash is a classic example which most Indian households take.

      • Anonymous

        The image below is from http://www.flickr.com/photos/hpnadig/5284075800/

        It contains a quote from the ancient Ayurvedic physicians Charaka works which says
        “Regular and excess indulgence of the following by would be parents or by expecting mother causes the following genetic disorders in the offspring”

        Sweet Substances – Diabetes, Obesity, Dumbness
        Sour Substances – Haemorrhagic disorders, Skin diseases, eye diseases
        Salt Substances – Graying of hair, fall of hair
        Pungent Substances – Oligospermia, Sterility
        Fish – Locomotor disturbance of eyelid and eyeball
        Alcohol – Weak Memory, Excessive Thirst, Instability of Mind
        Sleep – Low IQ, Weak Digestion, Drowsiness
        Worry – Short span of life
        Starvation – Miscarriage etc

    • Krishna Shastry

      This
      is not a pseudo science article. Instead, this article displays genuine
      interest towards science and presents a logical theory with willingness to
      learn/explore further and accept mistakes if found later.

  • Aishwarya Natarajan

    “it is not necessary that humanity will not be able to survive if males become extinct. Note that females do not need the Y Chromosome, and since all females have X Chromosomes, it would be still possible to create a mechanism where X Chromosomes from different females are used to create offspring, say like injecting the nuclei from the egg of one female into the egg of another female to fertilize it and that would grow into a girl child. So yes, that would be a humanity where only females exist.”

    So, you mean to say that if not for this male lineage tracing gotra thingy, y chromosomes can really become extinct but females can still survive and reproduce?
    If that is the case, under survival of the fittest, women will emerge as the fittest and still live while menfolk will become extinct, am i correct?
    And if I am correct, it looks like menfolk created this whole Gotra thingy just to exist and suppress women. Which proves women can live without men, but not vice versa!

    And another doubt of mine is y should women take up a gotra? Since it is clearly tacing MALE lineage, y should FEMALES take it up?

    Please clear my doubts!

    • Anonymous

      Well, I didnt mean that Y chromosome will become extinct if not for Gotra system, rest of the world does not practice this system, nor do many within India itself.

      Gotra system is predominantly to maintain unqiue male lineages and to avoid marriages between cousins so that the recessive genes are prevented from giving rise to genetic disorders in the offsprings.

      Having said that, it is MY suggestion that, looking at the Gotra system and its rules, it looks like it was also intended to protect the weakening Y Chromosome. This is just a suggestion and can be proved or disproved by statistical analysis of genomes in a sample population.

      As far as the Y Chromosome is considered, yes it is becoming weak and there is a debate in the scientific community about whether it will become extinct, and if it does then whether some other chromosome in the human body will take over its rule or whether that will be the end of men.

      Technically, females can exist without the need for any males. But then that would require the use of technology to create children using only females. The biology of female system alone naturally CANNOT do that.

      Finally the reason women also need Gotra is because of Genetics, for if women do not identify their Gotra, then there are chances of they marrying within the same Gotra (since their Gotra is not known) and that increases the chances of their children having genetic disorders. But it is upto a person (be it a male or a female) to take up a Gotra or not to take it up. This article is only about the scientific merits of a Gotra system, not about its social necessity.

      • Aishwarya Natarajan

        Ok, my next question is, I am a woman and if my dad is from Kashyapa Gothram and my mother is from Bharadwaja gothram, scientifically speaking my xx chromosomes will either be from Kashyapa Gothram or Bharadwaja Gothram.. Because of marriage, how will it SCIENTIFICALLY change my chromosomes to Haridha gothram which is my husand’s?

        • Anonymous

          Right, your chromosomes will contain both Kashyapa and Bharadwaja X Chromosomes – because females are XX where one X comes from father and the other from the mother .

          Now the ASSUMPTION here is that the 5% of Y Chromosome which matches with X is DOMINANT in nature, and hence they will be expressed in the daughters if they are present in the X chromosome coming from the father, and hence the Gotra of the daughter is that of her father.

          The X Chromosome of your children coming from the mother will be a combination of X from both Bharadwaja and Kashyapa and that is because X comes in pairs and can take part in crossover. Where as Y comes alone (it is XY not YY) and hence retains its uniqueness. So the X Chromosomes of your children coming from the mother MAY contain the ones you received from the father which may inturn contain the 5% genes of his Y Chromosome.

          Now, marriage will NOT change your chromosomes, instead what it does is the Gotra of your Son will be Haridha gotra since he will receive his Y from the father. In case of your daughter there are chances of she receiving the 5% of the Y Chromosome from her father into her X chromosome, so that 5% of the Y will be from the Haridha Gotra. Since Gotra system is all about tracking Y lineage, this is what makes her belong to the Haridha Gotra, and by the same logic you belong to Bharadwaja Gotra.

          Gotra is said to change after marriage for women to maintain a logical continuity and has no biological implications. Just think, that if the Gotra were to really change after marriage to that of husband’s scientifically, then that would become Sagotra marriage, which is what the entire Gotra system is trying to avoid :)

          So this Gotra change of women after marriage is more of like the mathematical conventions we follow to simplify problem solving. It is only the Gotra of the children that actually get impacted.

      • seeker

        Shouldn’t the implication of this would mean those who are not following gotra system in India would actually have weaker Ys and hence are at the verge of earlier extinct than those who are following it. Is it statistically shown that these decedents have more genetic defects. Assumptions here is that no direct cousins or great -great consins are getting married in which case the studies have already shown issues more due to Xs than anything to do with Y.

      • Krishna Shastry

        Why we are talking
        about females’ inability to reproduce without technological help? We are
        talking about millions of years in future. Even if human species lose so called
        ‘male’ species, natural reproduction might still happen in different way. Maybe
        so called ‘females’ might gain ability to mate with each and reproduce!

         

        The above might look
        like a step back to some of you i.e. generally uni-sex species are primitive
        compared to more advanced/complex/evolved mammals. So, nature might after all perfect
        itself towards a better model of male-female, who knows?!!

         

        And even if you talk
        about technology, following story would be an interesting read :-)

         

        “Houston, Houston, Do
        You Read?”

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Houston,_Houston,_Do_You_Read%3F

  • Is there any connection between gotra system and why females do all household chores like sweeping etc, they are also the ones sent to sasuraal and not the other way, they eat stale food or food which is not fresh where as men never eat that.

    • I mean between weakness of Y chromosome and the above.

      • Anonymous

        Well I do not see any connections between the two. But I strongly disapprove such practices, social harmony and development exists only when both the genders have equal rights and are treated with equal respect. In a matriarchal system boys go to girls house after marriage, in a patriarchal system girls go to boys house after marriage, but in modern times both girl and boy usually move on to their own house after marriage :)

  • sainath

    another question is why only brahmins followed this Gotra system… so apart from these unique 8 Y’s there should have been other Y’s from which other vernas started kshatriya, vaishya etc..

    This thought came to me because after reading both of your articles on this ‘Y’, i felt after centuries of mutations/evolutions the time comes that the best of the best ‘Y’ only can come(avatar) as a descendent of GOD (Vamana, Parshurama, Krishna, Rama etc) in some of the Y lineage and hence preservation of this unique Y lineage is IMP(which keeps on improving its health as generations past due to following of the Gotra system), but then some of these avatara’s were Kshatriyas by birth i guess,… and hence the above question..

    • Anonymous

      Well, I guess Gotra system is also followed in certain other communities, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_gotras
      Again the root Gotra Rishis most of whom are Prajapatis are said to be the beginning of all humans, not just brahmins, and only over time people took on to different profession like Kshatriyas etc and at that time either they gave up the Gotra system or started a new one at their branch.

      Yes as you said Rama, Krishna etc do not have Gotras because their family lineages were not following them. Rama for instance belonged to Ikshvaku dynasty, but he can be considered of Vashishta Gotra because the Ikshwaku lineage of Rama was broken when his ancestor Kalmashapada got his son through Niyoga of Vasishta with his wife Madayanthi!

  • Ashirodkar

    well researched and well written

    • Anonymous

      Thanks Ashirodkar.

  • ConfusedOrEnlightened

    Truly Enlightening article – but I am confused. Isn’t it true that it is the X chromosome that carries most of the useful stuff and only 5% Y chromosome is any good? A mother is twice as likely to propagate her ‘useful’ X chromosome right because she can have her X express well in her daughters as well as sons right? A dad can truly express himself via his daughters right? So by this logic it looks like if the rishis had adopted a matriarchal system, where the mother’s gothra is what matters, they would have better reduced the chances of in-breeding and child deaths due to chromosomal defects right, simply because it would result in more diversified X-X mix? Of course their defining Y chromosome would be lost. But this loss of identity would come at the benefit of higher conception rates and chromosome quality right? Is that why say Keralities who have a matriarchal system have fewer incidences of heart disease?

    Is this perhaps the reason so many of our grandparents had like 15 siblings? Because many would die of compromised immune system and genetic defects due to in-breeding? Is this also the reason they kept trying and trying and India is all set to become one of the most populous nations in the world? Is this the reason India has fewer gold medalists than any other country in relation to its population?

    I guess the question is what is better – saving that little 5% of Y in the hope that it will survive a few more years? Or a population that may lose all its men sooner than otherwise but live happy healthy lives?

    Looks to me from your article that patriarchal societies are the root cause of misery in our world !!! I now feel if the commendable gothra system was based on women instead of men, many many lives could have been saved.

    Maybe I got my logic all wrong? I see you are patiently answering a lot of questions, please help correct me too?

    • Anonymous

      The main use of Gotra system based on Y Chromosome is to identify the male lineaage. This is genetically true because Y Chromosome gets passed ONLY from a Father to the Son. However we cannot define a female lineage using X Chromosome not only because X gets passed from mother to all her children, but also X unlike Y does not remain completely unchanged in next generations. Where as Y except for its 5% compatible with X remains almost unchanged throughout generations. This is what it makes easy to identify male lineage using Y Chromosome. X on the other hand since keeps changing in every generation because of crossover, cannot be used to identify female lineages over generations. If one has to identify female lineages then one has to use mitochondrial DNA.

      Now coming back to the pros and cons of patriarchal and matriarchal system, I guess if the world was predominantly matriarchal then the complain today would be probably that it should have been patriarchal :) In my view, both husband and wife should be equal in any family, not one ruling over the other.

      And finally, the Gotra system is a scientific system, science can only tell what can be done, if somebody misuses it then it is our problem, not the problem of science. Using atom we can either build nuclear reactors to power up cities or can build nuclear weapons to destroy cities. Nuclear physics cannot be held responsible for that :)

      The root cause of all problems related to genders is the inequality between genders, be it matriarchal or patriarchal, where there is equality and respect for each other’s views, that society will prosper more and will live in more harmony.

      Our grandparents used to have more siblings because they did not follow any contraceptive methods then, not because of any other reason, and unlike today’s stress filled fast life those days they had ample time for these things :)

      India despite being a large population has comparatively little sports talents because of the inherent corrupt nature of the society, and lack of encouragement for sports other than cricket. Look at the amount earned by other sportsmen compared to cricketers. There is a total lack of encouragement in most other sports, except say tennis I guess. What is the infrastructure we have in the country to identify and groom talents from all over the country right from their childhood? Almost none. There are so many sports talents in rural areas, but how easy it is for them to get identified and enter their respective sports compared to the ease with which children in cities can enter? Very difficult. Again in cities parents usually prefer their children to be cricketers. And in Cricket we are number one. So that proves it. We just need to build the process in the system of identifying, coaching and encouraging talents from all over the country for all different sports.

      Hope I have answered all your questions.

      • Other than cricket there was once a time of Hockey 8 Olympic golds(mens hockey) r the most by any country and they r with India. Then I wondered what happened to Hockey later. Then I came across a man he told me he was once playing at club level and his club never lost in hockey when he was there and then he played for state but then he said there is so much politics out there that there was nothing for him after that. He took a career as a driver and is currently working for KK travels. Even in cricket there is a lot of politics in selection. There is a lot of talent and with billion people in hands one can conquer over all sports but our country runs on bribes and corrupt netas.

      • Krishna Shastry

        Dear Gurudev,

         

        Regarding patriarchal
        and matriarchal system, according to your own theory it is not about equality
        or respect, its about science, isn’t it? Kindly correct me if I am wrong.

         

        I made following
        interpretations after reading your article and comments so far (from bottom):

         

        1) X chromosomes
        evolve and improvise by sharing and hence maternal lineage is not very
        important after 2-3 generations

         

        2) Whereas if
        paternal lineage is not followed, then chances of genetic disorders are higher

         

        Please let me know if
        I am missing something.

  • Scifiman

    The best part of this blog is that you are open to all sorts of criticisms and comments. More importantly you take out time to answer each and every one of them with great patience – also accept your mistakes when pointed to. Now that I feel, is a true scientific spirit. Keep up the good work.

    • Anonymous

      Thanks Scifiman.

  • Txhumanist

    Back up a second. Let’s take it that your claim of Gotra’s passing through Y as factual. Now in the case of a girl, she takes XX from the father(say Bharadwaj) and mother (say Gautama), she would essentially take the X on her father’s side from her paternal grandmother (who could be Kashyapa in our experiment) and the other X from her mother in turn 50% probability of the genetic makeup of the maternal grandparents. How does your claim of intra-Gothra issues play into effect?

    Also, if your claim that there were seven genetic ancestors, wouldn’t that be a problem irregardless of gothras by weak genetic pools. Even if we modestly assume 10% of India’s population as Brahmin, that is 160 million people from 7 ancestors. Would that in effect have weakened the gene pool?

    • Anonymous

      Agreed with the first paragraph in your comment. However when we say that she takes the X from her paternal grand mother, that applies strictly only for that portion of X which does not get involved in crossover with Y. However there is this 5% of Y which is compatible with X and may swap genes during crossover which hence may also come from her father’s Y. It is this 5% of Y which can get mixed in X which is what we are interested in here as the Gotra system is predominantly about the impact on Y Chromosome.

      So if she marries another Bharadwaj and gets a son, then there are greater chances that the portion of X in her which can crossover with 5% of Y will contain the same 5% as that of her husband (ie if some or all of her father’s Y Chromosome’s 5% X compatible part had creeped into her paternal X chromosome during crossover when she was born)

      So within the same Gotra there are great chances of the same crossovers happening for this 5% of Y Chromosome, which is similar to cousin marriage impacts, except that in this case Y Chromosome is the specific target. And hence my theory is that, Gotra system was probably created to
      1) Identify unique male lineage and develop genes specific to that lineage over time
      2) to protect the degenerating Y Chromosomes from its X compatible part getting affected by marriages in close relation or in same pool

      Regarding the weakening of Genetic pool, looking at the Brahmin community around me I dont think so :)
      These genetic ancestry is said to have started in the very initial days of humanity. So assuming that it is correct, then I guess it shouldn’t be a problem as such, because even when initially species get created, the genetic pools will be more or less same, because the number of beings will be very little. But the recessive genes probably would not be there still I guess, because they get created only over time via mutations as the species evolve over hundreds of generations. So in the initial days of a species the issue of cousin marriages should not be there.

  • seshadri kannan

    okay now as per ur theory u cite these 8 rishis are principal starting points for the origin of gothra system..the question about the possibility of these 8 rishis being related at some level above them is nullified by your point that these 8 rishis are also Prajapatis :”Prajapatis are those who were the immediate descendants of Brahma (the Creator God) ”
    So if you have supported your arguments with so much scientific proof, could there be enough scientific proof of existence of God?

    • Anonymous

      This is a very good question. Guess I would direct you to this earlier article of mine on this subject – The Vedic Concept of God

      If you see here, Brahma is not some person like God, it is a symbolic representation of our Physical Universe, which has a birth (at the Big Bang) and a death. Prajapatis again represent the initial set of every species. Not just humans, but all life forms have their Prajapati roots. As I said earlier in one of my comments, there are also descriptions of how species like “cattle” evolved from these Prajapatis into a different set of animals altogether and so on. So it is actually descirbing an evolutionary system, and Prajapatis represent the initial set of beings or genetic patterns that existed at the root of every species.

      Coming to the scientific proof of God, what we need to realize is that, modern science is still INCOMPLETE. Science still does not COMPLETELY understand how the universe was actually created, how it actually functions at a core level, what exactly is the mechanism of a brain’s functioning, why humans suddenly became an intelligent species in evolution, etc and has lots of unanswered puzzles and mysteries even todate. If we see the evolution of science, in almost every century a lot of “scientific facts” of the previous century have been later found to be “wrong”.

      So given this scenario, it would be too premature to pass a judgement on something like God being scientific or not, because first we need to get the science as humans know it COMPLETE ie it should be able to explain everything in this universe without any puzzle, contradiction or mystery. And then we can see that whether THAT complete science requires a God or not.

      And my own humble opinion is that, consciousness as we know it cannot be CREATED, just like matter and energy, it can only be INVOKED in the form of a life system and that is the link which connects our physical materialistic universe with the spiritual nature of the cosmos. No matter how many questions science answers, a final question will always be there – then where did that come from?

      Where did the matter and energy that existed in the pre-bigbang universe singularity come from? If it came from somewhere, then where did that somewhere come from? And so on.

  • atheist

    first of all, its very important to note that there are very few rare diseases associated with y chromosome. So even if something happens to it, no major diseases will occur.

    then, all the so called 8 rishis will also share some genes between them. its ridiculous to maintain the so called 8 genes- which doesnt mean they are good ones given the rarity of y linked diseases.

    and if you want to avoid remote consanguineous marriages like this, a better idea will be intercaste marriages- e.g. between hindus and muslims. that’ll ensure miniaml sharing of genes and make recessive diseases unlikely- i think for this universally all brahmins will object!

    and for all practical purposes, the amount of shared genes is 1 in 2^n where n is the degree of conanguinity. we as clinicians take only upto 4th degree for any diseases, beyond which 2^n is no different from 2^n+1

    • Anonymous

      Yes you are right in saying that the farther the marriage – intercaste, inter religious, international – the better the chances of making recessive genes unlikely. But considering that the Gotra system was followed in the ancient times when the ancient vedic religion was the predominant one in the society, the equivalent of the different religions and castes today was the different Gotras or different lineages in those days. So I guess they got it right in those days by creating the Gotra system to ensure that people married from far away genetic links ie not within the same Gotra or family lineage.

      Now allowing of mixing of different ethnic groups (inter case inter religious etc), is also a social issue and is not restricted to Hinduism or India. Russians oppose it vigorously, almost every other religion/caste opposes it, and in some sections isnt there a genetic identity involved here too, that they want to maintain the genetic uniqueness of their culture?

      Also, what are the chances that say a tribe A which has never allowed mixing of their tribes with any other tribe, have developed a specific useful gene via a mutation and have retained it in their tribes which is extremely useful for its members, and allowing them to intermarry with other tribes might cause their special gene to become extinct? For instance a specific African tribe who are resistant to Malaria, wont it be a threat to their resistance power if they get married outside their tribes? So I guess there is a scientific angle here as well.

      Coming back to the Y Chromosome, even the allowing of rare diseases to get expressed, how dangerous can it prove to the survival of the Y Chrosome? For it is a known fact that the Y Chromosome has been degenerating over time, and is most vulnerable to genetic damage than all other chromosomes as it self-mates and does not get involved in a crossover unlike other chromosomes in our cells? That was my main reasoning here about the probable scientific reason behind the existence of Gotra system, apart from the commonly known and valid scientific fact that the Gotra system maintains a male lineage via the Y Chromosome and addresses the problems associated with cousin marriages by barring marriages within the same Gotras.

      Again as I replied to some other comments down there, the 8 rishis are said to be the ones who ilved at the beginning of human evolution, and their reference looks more of like a symbolic one if we read the scriptures. Because there is an evolutionary pathway there which describes how some species got separated overtime from these Prajapatis and want on to become cattle, elephants etc. So I guess these 8 unique lineages refer to some distinct isolation and classification in those days using the science and technology they had, just like we today have the ability to identify different isolated races using DNA analysis. So probably a detailed genetic study of the families (their Y Chromosomes), whose generations have been strictly following the Gotra system would probably throw some light on this.

      Thanks a lot for your interesting and valuable comments.

      • Txhumanist

        “..whose generations have been strictly following the Gotra system would probably throw some light on this.” That would be assuming there was zero infidelity on the woman’s side, and whole other variables which we have no experimental control. It is better to test your theory by seeking out same Gothra (unrelated families) weddings and their progeny.

        • Anonymous

          Well, if we take a large sample in the study, I dont think infidelity will be a problem statistically. This is assuming that most of the population is not infidel, and I guess this is a fair assumption in case of India :)

          Yes, we can also have the tests done on same Gothra weddings, but the problem here is we have no initial statistics in the first place, because we cannot for sure find families which have been religiously following sagotra weddings? I mean no family will generally be always marrying within the same Gotra? So guess we wont get too many samples in this case?

          However I guess if we are able to isolate Y traits of different Gotras, then a DNA analysis of these individual Y Chromosomes could probably tell us of the risks if marriages were to happen within these same Gotras? Probably via a computer simulation or so for a given number of generations.

  • Shardul Kalwit

    this is awesome article, gr8 work to bring forth these facts. once again it is proved how advanced we were.
    keep up the good work buddy!!!

    • Anonymous

      Thank you very much Shardul :)

  • Saswata Kumar Sahoo

    Human genetics is not so simple..it is true that breeding among close family members increases the chance of genetic defects even in humans..the only way of selecting healthy genes for reproduction is to have a gene sequencing …the theory may be true at earlier times when population was sparse, but now the population has risen to 600 crore….as is the conservation of good genes necessary so is the inter-mixing for getting better chance to good cross-over… .can one guarantee that even following those ancient rules, the offspring will not pick up wrong genes??? …..& to get a better a glimpse of mythological history of gotra, more study of the manuscripts is needed in the details of how the rishis created the lineage :D …a recent genetic study by ISI on diverse people have shown that the brahmins of a definite region shows more genetic similarities to other caste people (so-called) than the brahmins of far off land…which directly proves the breakage of so-called brahmin lineage from the listed gurus….& the system of “selective breeding” has broken in most parts of modern india…….and last but most important ==> Wikipedia is the worst reference that can be used in writing any article (at least in science as i humbly practice bio-sciences)….

    • Anonymous

      Genetics is still an evolving field so is entire science as such. What we call Science today is not complete, so I guess unless and until scientific evidence proves contrary, it would be unwise to brush away ancient practices as unscientific. This article is such an attempt to reason the science behind the Gotra system.

      Yes, as you rightly said more study is definitely required and my suggestion is that a detailed genetic study of all those families who are religiously following the Gotra study be done to established the genetic veracity of the system.

      But statistically it can definitely be guaranteed that the CHANCES of one picking up the wrong genes are definitely way less compared to marriage within the same Gotra, I guess that is what finally the Genetics of cousin marriage is all about. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage#Biological_aspects Note that even though this is a Wikipedia entry, all the content is from reputed organizations and experts referenced at the end of the page.

      Yes again I do not deny that the system is broken in those families who are not following this system. Which is why to study the genetic basis of this system we need to do a genetic study of only those families who have been following the Gotra system throughout their generations.

      And finally, even though I have used Wikipedia as the reference, these are pretty stable articles with adequate cross referencing in them against reputed journals and experts in the field. I have verified the science and genetics behind these in many a texts as such and though I am not a professional biologist, Genetics is one of my favorite past time readings alongside Relativity and Quantum Mechanics. This is just to say that I didnt blindly rely on Wikipedia entries, for I dont write articles about something which I myself dont know :)

      So, none of the scientific facts mentioned here are wrong as far as my knowledge of Genetics and Biology goes. Please let me know if you think otherwise.

  • Xperienceworks

    so the Brahma created the Prajapatis .. the 8 rishis… so that makes them brothers???? since they all share the same creator..! ..

    • Anonymous

      Prajapatis are called sons of Brahma to indicate that they were at the very beginning of human establishment.

      Brahma is not some real third party sitting out there, Brahma represents the physical universe created during big bang and has a birth and a death. Vishnu represents the eternal universe that exists beyond our physical universe and includes all physical universes which are continuously created and destroyed. Shiva is the symbolic representation of the destruction at the end of every cycle that has a beginning. This circle of Trinity is used to describe the continuous cycles of beginnings and ends, and all that lies in between and beyond.

      If you look at the scriptures carefully, Prajapatis are defined not just for humans but for all forms of life, and also there are descriptions like how new species like cattle, elephants got separated from the parent species over time which clearly is an indicative of the understanding of the evolutionary concept.

      If you look at the list of Dashavatara or the 10 incarnations of Vishnu – you can see that it denotes evolution too
      1. Matsyavatara – Incarnation of Fish – First life forms were born in Water (like Matsya – fish)
      2. Koormavatara – Incarnation of Tortoise – Next life forms were amphibians (like Koorma – Tortoise) that lived both on land and water
      3. Varahavatara – Incarnation of Boar – Next came the land animals (like Varaha – Boar)
      4. Narasimha – Incarnation of half lion/half man – Next came the transitional species between human species and its ancestor species
      5. Vamana – Incarnation of dwarf human – Next came the initial human species
      and the later avatars go on to indicate the development of humans towards modernism and then enlightenment (Buddha) and finally the end of the cycle (Kalki)

    • Indian Robo

      I do not think this is another Adam and Eve story. Adam and Eve were a brother-sister pair who came from the same creator, and they later went on to produce off springs after eating that fruit. God know why he created the fruit in the first place if he did not want them to eat it.
      Their children then married each other to start the human race. It is also said that God created Eve using Adam’s Ribs!

      • Anonymous

        Not sure why Adam and Eve are mentioned here? You mean to say that their marriage would have caused Genetic defects in the children or later generations as they married within the same family?

  • Abdulla Sabeer

    You don’t seem to know your genetics like you seem to think you do. How do you account for mitochondrial DNA which is inherited maternally ? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrial_DNA. By your logic, the lineage can also be maintained through the female side by mDNA. And besides there are a whole lot of cultures, including Hindu cultures in South India, where it is the norm to marry your cousins and they don’t seem to have any genetic problems. Please don’t go “South Indians are dravidians and this applies only to brahmins”. Your logic is kinda convoluted and not fully thought out but i guess you got your beliefs :)

    • Anonymous

      What has mDNA got to do with this? :) We are NOT accounting for mDNA in the Gotra system, this is only about the male lineage and hence is restricted to Y Chromosome. Yes of course lineage could also be maintained using mDNA, I have not denied that anywhere, but as I said the Gotra system is all about male lineage.

      Scientific Statistics PROVE that cousin marriages DO CAUSE genetic problems. For your reference http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage#Biological_aspects

      In April 2002, the Journal of Genetic Counseling released a report which estimated the average risk of birth defects in a child born of first cousins at 1.7–2.8% OVER an average base risk for non-cousin couples of 3%

      Also see the BBC report on the risk of cousin marriage – http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/newsnight/4442010.stm
      It discusses Pakistanis in Britain, 55% of whom marry a first cousin. The report states that these children from repeated generations of first cousin marriage are 13 times more likely than the general population to produce children with genetic disorders, and one in ten children of first-cousin marriages in Birmingham either dies in infancy or develops a serious disability. The BBC also states that Pakistani-Britons, who account for some 3% of all births in the UK, produce “just under a third” of all British children with genetic illnesses.

      The above statistics and facts are from scientific analysis from external reputed sources and experts in the society, they are definitely not my beliefs :)

      Even amongst those families who practice cousin marriage in India, I myself know many who have had children with genetic disorders. I am sure that if there is a statistical survey done in India amongst those families who have been practicing cousin marriages the figures will stand for the genetic facts.

      These cousin marriages in south India are generally done MOSTLY to avoid the cost of dowry, unfortunately such social solutions to social problems are resulting in scientific problems.

      Finally, well I never said South Indians are Dravidians, if you read my other articles, I am a strong opponent of the aryan invasion theory. Genetic studies have proved that so called aryan and dravidian race share same genes. When the Gods are same and cultures are same how can they be two distinct races?

      Moreover, the rules of Genetics applies to all humans and all life forms, not just for Brahmins or Dravidians :)

    • Prash833

      Mr Sabeer, the reply to your words — when you do not know about things, then do not speak up..

  • Krishndro

    really quite interesting to read in detail about our lineage . thanks for the contribution.

    • Anonymous

      Thanks for the comments Krishndro

  • jagadeesan

    Good Article.Our Sastras are proved by science.This article is an opportunity for youngsters to know about our ancient tradition and vamsavvali

    • Anonymous

      True Jagadeesan, probably we can use genetics to test the veracity of this and test the Y Chromosomes of those families who have been strictly following the Gotra system for generations.

  • Arulalan Rajan

    Outstanding Article and Excellent Analysis!!! Take a bow GuruDev!!!..Thanks to all those who have asked questions on this article. The questions and subsequent answers by Guru has made this article a complete one!!!

    • Anonymous

      Very true Arulalan, the comments always make the article complete. The author will always be writing the article with a particular idea in mind, and may still have ignored or skipped certain obvious or not so obvious questions. When a different line of thought enters the articles in the form of comments, be it questions or opinions – then it tends to make the article complete.

  • Arunkalyan

    Hi..this is really a good research that you have done..Could you somehow try to update this in Wikipedia..

    • Anonymous

      Wikipedia is ruled by deletionists, so I normally dont go and update anything there.
      I used to do that once just to see that the very next hour it used to get deleted, probably the ones who deleted it thought that I was trying to popularize my blog using Wikipedia :)

  • Anon

    Even if all of this was true think about the case of infidelity. A woman from brighu gotra marries someone from kashyapa but bears the son of a brighu (infidelity). The son is called a kashyapa but is in fact a brighu gotra. Now he is given a girl from Brighu to mate with. Now he disturbs the equilibrium of the entire system. The system is not fail safe by a huge measure.

    Now if you think about how many centuries this gotra system has been followed and the chances of this happening you would realize that it is mostly propagating such bad genes.

    Now again if you let things to chance and randomness (which is what happens even with the best safeguards put in by “Rishis”) the recessive genes will eventually die out because of the basic tenet of evolution called “Survival of the fittest”.

    @Rachna, nice questions.

    • http://www.hitxp.com Gurudev

      The case of infidelity does not disturb the system because if the son is a normal male (normal XY pair then he still belongs to Kashyapa as Y comes from Kashyapa Gotra)
      and if the son is infidel, then even if he does not have Y Chromosome or has multiple Y, in either case he cannot have offsprings, so this in no way disturbs the Gotra system :)

      Coming back to randomness, my theory is that the safeguards were protect the degenerating Y Chromosome. The “Survival of the fittest” does not apply to Y Chromosome, you can check Genetics, Y Chromosome DOES NOT get involved in any kind of Chromosomal crossover and hence has been degenerating over period of time, and so the Gotra system prevents further degeneration of the Y CHromosome as it does not allow recessive genes in the 5% of the Y Chromosome (which matches with X Chromosome) by getting expressed, which can definitely happen accordingly to genetics if the marriage happens between cousins, even between far away cousins (if they are carriers of recessive genes)

    • Anonymous

      The case of infidelity does not disturb the system because if the son is a normal male (normal XY pair then he still belongs to Kashyapa as Y comes from Kashyapa Gotra)
      and if the son is infidel, then even if he does not have Y Chromosome or has multiple Y, in either case he cannot have offsprings, so this in no way disturbs the Gotra system :)

      Coming back to randomness, my theory is that the safeguards were protect the degenerating Y Chromosome. The “Survival of the fittest” does not apply to Y Chromosome, you can check Genetics, Y Chromosome DOES NOT get involved in any kind of Chromosomal crossover and hence has been degenerating over period of time, and so the Gotra system prevents further degeneration of the Y CHromosome as it does not allow recessive genes in the 5% of the Y Chromosome (which matches with X Chromosome) by getting expressed, which can definitely happen accordingly to genetics if the marriage happens between cousins, even between far away cousins (if they are carriers of recessive genes)

      • Ajay

        Hey, Your reply to ‘Anon’ is completely wrong. If a son is born to a Brighu, but is incorrectly considered Kashyapa, he has Brighu’s Y chromosome, even though it is assumed that he has Kashyapa’s Y.

        So, if this ‘son’ mates with a girl from Brighu, then from your logic, their progeny will likely have some recessive genes being active. Thus, even if infidelity occured at a small rate, eventually, the ‘corrupt’ genes will propagate.

        So, in fact, even if it were true( 8 rishi’s from brahma, their pure Y chromosomes), if this system is followed, it will not be an Evolutionarily Stable Strategy, and the group that followed this would get wiped out.

        If, we brahmins have survived for this long, we must thank marital infidelity!!

        Waiting for your explanation…

        • Anonymous

          Oh Yes, Thanks a lot for highlighting this. My mistake, because I thought “infidelity” meant having child with gender defects, my bad English, didnt know about “cheating” terminology :)

          So I now see that, infidelity means if a women cheats her husband and gets a son from different Gotra? So my answer above is definitely wrong. Here is my opinion below on this.

          Yes in this case obviously the Gotra system will fail, because just like all other systems it is created with certain ASSUMPTIONS and one such assumption is of marital sanctity.

          But going by statistical logic, such infidelity will not propagate far too long because of recessive genes getting expressed early on, and hence wouldn’t pose a danger to the actual Gotra system as such. Because it would be as good as somebody violating the Gotra system intentionally, and the results would be genetic defects within the next few generations. So I dont see corrupt genes would propagate for long as the chain will break somewhere down soon. So your conclusion that it will wipe out the group is definitely wrong even by genetics and statistics :)

          And by saying brahmins have survived due to marital infidelity will be a gross insult to all the faithfuls. Since this has no scientific or statistical basis either, we should be careful while making such comments. As I said earlier, technically the case of infidelity leading to same Gotra marriage is no different from intentionally getting a marriage done within the same Gotra, and the Gotra system itself is created to prevent any genetic defects getting expressed because of this. So if one, either by hiding it or intentionally violates this rule, the result is obvious, the genetic defects get expressed some generation down the lane, and most probably will terminate the chain there, and so there are very little chances that this will cause any imbalance in the system as such.

          So as I said earlier, a thorough genetic DNA study of the Y chromosomes of a large sample of families who have been following the Gotra system religiously will prove its pros and cons. The proof of any scientific theory is to get it tested again and again, and to accept it as long as there is no proof against it, and to start questioning it if any proof against it is found and repeat the cycle of tests again with an updated theory :)

  • Anon

    You have made quite a few assumptions starting with “there were so and so rishis”, “they wanted to prevent these issues” and so on. I would like to see quoted texts from their period stating the actual reason instead of us speculating as it will always be speculating. I find it hard to believe that the so-called rishis had knowledge of genes without having documented it.

    • http://www.hitxp.com Gurudev

      “There were so and so rishis” is not an assumption – it is a fact and that is why we have Gotra system named after these Rishis :)

      Next the entire article is about what Gotra system means scientifically, and you can ask any Geneticist or a biologist and explain to him the Gotra system and he will inturn explain you that the system does ensure that a perfect genetic male lineage will be maintained if you strictly follow this system. That is because it is a proven scientific fact that ONLY Y Chromosomes get carried over ONLY from Father to Son (not from Father to Daughter or not from Mother to either Son or Daughter) and females never carry this Y Chromosome, and Y Chromosome gets carried between generations ALMOST unaltered. In Modern Genetics Y Chromosome is the ONLY way of easily identifying a continuous male lineage for hundreds of generations with great accuracy and least complexity. So till here, none of these are my ASSUMPTIONS, these are scientific facts.

      Now at the end of the article, I try to reason WHY the Gotra system was created where in it did not allow marriage between same Gotra bride and bridegroom. The Y Chromosome which is responsible for the creation of men or males is on a path of continuous degeneration and many Geneticists today think that in another few million years the Y Chromosome would be completely gone! This again is a scientific fact, NOT my assumption :)

      The only part where my own theory comes into place is that where I state that the Gotra system prevented marriage between same Gotras to PREVENT further degeneration of Y Chromosome because unlike other chromosomes which get involved in crossover with their pairs, 95% of Y CHromosme does not get involved in crossover and hence is at a greater risk of being affected by genetic mutations. AND again it is a genetic fact that marriages between cousins, even far away cousins, can lead to children with genetic disorders. So MY reasoning is that the Gotra system was created to ensure that the vulnerable Y Chromosome is not impacted in any way by the marriages between even distant cousins and this thought is open to verification :)

    • Anonymous

      “There were so and so rishis” is not an assumption – it is a fact and that is why we have Gotra system named after these Rishis :)

      Next the entire article is about what Gotra system means scientifically, and you can ask any Geneticist or a biologist and explain to him the Gotra system and he will inturn explain you that the system does ensure that a perfect genetic male lineage will be maintained if you strictly follow this system. That is because it is a proven scientific fact that ONLY Y Chromosomes get carried over ONLY from Father to Son (not from Father to Daughter or not from Mother to either Son or Daughter) and females never carry this Y Chromosome, and Y Chromosome gets carried between generations ALMOST unaltered. In Modern Genetics Y Chromosome is the ONLY way of easily identifying a continuous male lineage for hundreds of generations with great accuracy and least complexity. So till here, none of these are my ASSUMPTIONS, these are scientific facts.

      Now at the end of the article, I try to reason WHY the Gotra system was created where in it did not allow marriage between same Gotra bride and bridegroom. The Y Chromosome which is responsible for the creation of men or males is on a path of continuous degeneration and many Geneticists today think that in another few million years the Y Chromosome would be completely gone! This again is a scientific fact, NOT my assumption :)

      The only part where my own theory comes into place is that where I state that the Gotra system prevented marriage between same Gotras to PREVENT further degeneration of Y Chromosome because unlike other chromosomes which get involved in crossover with their pairs, 95% of Y CHromosme does not get involved in crossover and hence is at a greater risk of being affected by genetic mutations. AND again it is a genetic fact that marriages between cousins, even far away cousins, can lead to children with genetic disorders. So MY reasoning is that the Gotra system was created to ensure that the vulnerable Y Chromosome is not impacted in any way by the marriages between even distant cousins and this thought is open to verification :)

  • Rachna

    Hello

    According to your article “Brahmins identify their male lineage by considering themselves to be the descendants of the 8 great Rishis”.

    Thus brahmins strictly practicing the gotra rule would be related through lineage to one of these eight distinct rishis

    Now correct me if Im wrong but wouldnt these Rishis (and I mean no disrespect) also be somehow related to each other through lineage.

    Noone can be born without having a mother and a father and the rishis (even God’s) are not exempt from this. The Rishis would also have to somehow be blood related to each other

    How can any two people from the same genetic (hindu brahmin) background not trace back to one single family; or be somehow distantly related; and atleast share some minor part of their gene pool

    So marrying someone outside your gotra could not prevent bad genes from being included in your child’s dna or being expressed since the other gotras are not 100% distinct

    Im confused about this as well – “Now there are fair chances that his offsprings will be carriers of these genes throughout successive generations. As long as they keep marrying outside his genetic imprint, there is a fair chance that the defective gene will remain inactive since others outside this person’s lineage most probably do not have that defective gene.”

    How can a bad gene (e.g: one that causes hydrocephalus which is dormant in the carrier) that is carried through generations not be present at the beginnning itself when the gotra system was made

    Regards
    Rachna

    • http://www.hitxp.com Gurudev

      Yes you are absolutely right that even the Rishis should be related to each other somehow in the past. Thanks for asking this very important question, will update the article by adding an additional paragraph at the end about this. In short, the Rishis mentioned at the root of the Gotra system are said to be the direct descendants of Brahma or Prajapatis who then went on to start their own human lineages. Prajapatis are similar to the concept of Adam in western religions. And hence the Gotra System started with these Rishis.

      Bad Genes get created later as the humanity evolves over thousands of generations due to mutations, environmental impact etc. At the beginning since the Gotra system was created at a time almost when human lineages is said to have started by Prajapatis, going by the scriptures since this was at the beginning of humans, the genes and chromosomes are assumed to be pure then and free of any bad genes which got created later due to mutations as human generations evolved. Hope this answers your question? :)

    • Anonymous

      Yes you are absolutely right that even the Rishis should be related to each other somehow in the past. Thanks for asking this very important question, will update the article by adding an additional paragraph at the end about this. In short, the Rishis mentioned at the root of the Gotra system are said to be the direct descendants of Brahma or Prajapatis who then went on to start their own human lineages. Prajapatis are similar to the concept of Adam in western religions. And hence the Gotra System started with these Rishis.

      Bad Genes get created later as the humanity evolves over thousands of generations due to mutations, environmental impact etc. At the beginning since the Gotra system was created at a time almost when human lineages is said to have started by Prajapatis, going by the scriptures since this was at the beginning of humans, the genes and chromosomes are assumed to be pure then and free of any bad genes which got created later due to mutations as human generations evolved. Hope this answers your question? :)

      • http://www.facebook.com/paul.gill.752861 Paul Gill

        Brahma according to you is adam and eve had seven daughters. Please read the book ”seven daughters of eve”, each of which gave her name as gotra to the seven rishies. You have come straight out of africa and the bible.

        • I=Indian

          Brahma is not adam. If Adam is what you call the first human, then it is Manu in Indian culture. Brahma is the creator of Manu. Infact the very word Man is derived from the sanskrit word “Manu”, referring to the first human after each cycle of destruction.

          Also Manu is not the term used for any one single human. It is the first human who gets created after every cycle of creation following the previous cycle of destruction. Manu is more similar to Phantom than Adam.

          Sorry we are not out of Bible. Its the other way round. These Sanskrit texts predate any literature known to mankind.

  • aarathi

    awesome article.. i liked it

    • http://www.hitxp.com Gurudev

      Thanks Aarathi

    • Anonymous

      Thanks Aarathi

  • Anonymous

    Gurudev. Your parents have very rightly named you.
    I have read many of the articles you have written and they are splendid. Just give some names of more such blogs or sites that you know of now that i am about to finish the interesting ones from yours.

    • http://www.hitxp.com Gurudev

      Hindu Wisdom is a great website and has loads of amazing content and facts. Let me know when you are done with it and will provide you other links :)

    • Anonymous

      Hindu Wisdom is a great website and has loads of amazing content and facts. Let me know when you are done with it and will provide you other links :)

      • Anonymous

        Thanks a tonne. Jai Gurudev :)

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_ZUCNJ5Z4OCZX3WL6N7IB7ZFUE4 Anonymous

    this is awesome … i love the scientific explanation … it makes people who claim that our ancestors are prejudicial look like the fool. :) )) by the way, opposition of intercaste marriages was one of the evils that creeped into our system. even that was without reason … there would be too much of a difference in the way of life in another caste .. it would be all the more harder on the girls to adjust. wt say? :)

    • Anonymous

      Why so if in Hinduism we can follow two cultures? I don’t think any hardships might be faced if two cultures are allowed to be followed simultaneously. In fact all are somewhat similar at least I think so.

      Is that’s why moms used to comfort male child more than the girl child because they are genetically weak.

      • http://www.hitxp.com Gurudev

        Sorry Anonymous I didnt get the first para?

        Well I dont think moms knew much about Genetics off late in this regard, I guess that it had become “male child oriented” prejudiced system without understanding the science behind the Gotra system, and in recent times it has become a curse where parents are killing female child bcos of social evils like dowry which is killing our society causing male-female ration imbalance, and unfortunately has made India a country where sex determination of the child during pregnancy is illegal, because of the lack of social and ethical responsibility in parents those who want only male children.

      • Anonymous

        Well I dont think moms knew much about Genetics off late in this regard, I guess that it had become “male child oriented” prejudiced system without understanding the science behind the Gotra system, and in recent times it has become a curse where parents are killing female child bcos of social evils like dowry which is killing our society causing male-female ration imbalance, and unfortunately has made India a country where sex determination of the child during pregnancy is illegal, because of the lack of social and ethical responsibility in parents those who want only male children.

    • http://www.hitxp.com Gurudev

      Unfortunate conversion of the profession based classification into a caste system is a great menace in the Hindu Society.

      Brahmins – Teachers, Scientists, Scholars, etc
      Kshatriyas – Warriors, Army, Police etc
      Vaishyas – Businessmen, Industrialists, Financiers etc
      Shudras – Labourers

      This later went on to become the caste system in the medieval ages due to vested interest groups who forwarded their own propaganda, and further sub classification resulted in a huge caste, sub caste oriented system. Today for instance if a person belongs to Kuruba caste, the original professional classification of this was Shepherd community, as the name itself suggests those who had shepherding as their profession were called Kurubas, just like in English we have Black Smiths, Gold Smiths etc. But today how many people from these castes are really Shepherds or Black Smiths? So the professional classification has been converted into a family lineage attribute and has lost all meaning today.

      Even Brahmins in the ancient scriptures were called Dvija or Twice born, and even Bhagavadgita clearly states this. Just because a person is born to a Brahmin does not make him a Brahmin automatically, for he has to earn that knowledge through Gurukula study (Similar to today’s Graduation) and this will be considered his second birth because of the knowledge he has gained , and only then he can call himself a Brahmin. Ravana for instance though considered evil, and even though was a Kshatriya (being a king), was also considered a Brahmin (because he had completed knowledge of the Vedas). Which is why Rama after killing Ravana performs a ritual to get rid of BrahmaHatyaDosha which comes by killing a Brahmin. Even Vishwamitra was initially a Kshatriya who later only after attaining the knowledge started being considered as a Brahmin. Such incidents clearly show that the original ancient classification was purely based on the knowledge and profession of a person, just like we have today doctors, scientists, labourers, industrialists etc.

      So I see no reason today why intercaste marriages should not be allowed, other than if they are not recommended by science say because of possible genetical problems mentioned above. The best way would be probably for the boy and girl to get their DNA tested and see if their marriage would cause any genetic problem in the offsprings :)

    • Anonymous

      I think opposition to intercaste marriages is more of a social issue now rather than scientific, because caste itself is a social conversion of a system actually meant to represent professions. Its high time that we do away with the divisive caste system in the society, and get back to calling Doctors as a profession and not a caste :)

      • kn

        Although I agree to some extent on your point of intercaste marriage, but here is my Re0.02 on this: In case of a marriage between two castes, then it would be difficult to trace the lineage through the gotra/pravara system, and might still end up having the same problem the system was developed to avoid.
        True the caste division is originally based on the profession. There is an interesting article in NatGeo in March’11 where, as an experiment, they domesticated wild foxes slowly over successive generations by selective breeding. The domesticated foxes ended up having differences in genetic structure in just about 10 generations. So just to put it out there: Could it have been possible that the kind of profession one did would have introduced genetic modifications, which would make the person best suited for a kind of work, which in turn would have been labeled to be if a caste or varna.?

    • Umasha1

      Very true

  • Anonymous

    This article deserves great appreciation but I have more questions.

    Are there any problems in Inter Caste Marriages. Why do people refrain from intercaste marriages? and marriages amongst different cultures and religions.

    • http://www.hitxp.com Gurudev

      As I mentioned above, the inter caste marriages, different cultures and religions are more of a social issue than with a scientific basis. I see no reason why they should not be allowed if there is no scientific reason to do so.

    • Anonymous

      Unfortunate conversion of the profession based classification into a caste system is a great menace in the Hindu Society.

      Brahmins – Teachers, Scientists, Scholars, etc
      Kshatriyas – Warriors, Army, Police etc
      Vaishyas – Businessmen, Industrialists, Financiers etc
      Shudras – Labourers

      This later went on to become the caste system in the medieval ages due to vested interest groups who forwarded their own propaganda, and further sub classification resulted in a huge caste, sub caste oriented system. Today for instance if a person belongs to Kuruba caste, the original professional classification of this was Shepherd community, as the name itself suggests those who had shepherding as their profession were called Kurubas, just like in English we have Black Smiths, Gold Smiths etc. But today how many people from these castes are really Shepherds or Black Smiths? So the professional classification has been converted into a family lineage attribute and has lost all meaning today.

      Even Brahmins in the ancient scriptures were called Dvija or Twice born, and even Bhagavadgita clearly states this. Just because a person is born to a Brahmin does not make him a Brahmin automatically, for he has to earn that knowledge through Gurukula study (Similar to today’s Graduation) and this will be considered his second birth because of the knowledge he has gained , and only then he can call himself a Brahmin. Ravana for instance though considered evil, and even though was a Kshatriya (being a king), was also considered a Brahmin (because he had completed knowledge of the Vedas). Which is why Rama after killing Ravana performs a ritual to get rid of BrahmaHatyaDosha which comes by killing a Brahmin. Even Vishwamitra was initially a Kshatriya who later only after attaining the knowledge started being considered as a Brahmin. Such incidents clearly show that the original ancient classification was purely based on the knowledge and profession of a person, just like we have today doctors, scientists, labourers, industrialists etc.

      So I see no reason today why intercaste marriages should not be allowed, other than if they are not recommended by science say because of possible genetical problems mentioned above. The best way would be probably for the boy and girl to get their DNA tested and see if their marriage would cause any genetic problem in the offsprings :)

      • Vinish

        Simply awesome & very logical — reasoning & findings… a must read :) )

        - Vinish

        • Anonymous

          Thanks you Vinish

  • sainath

    Good thinking and attempt to logically relate Gotra system with XY chromosomes… really appreciate it since all mentioned in article is probably in most of the minds…

    But,
    1) this means that there had to be unique 8 Y’s to start with first….
    and then probably from these rishis all the lineage started ???
    2) or had these rishis come from some other plane/planet and started the lineages
    3) or did they study previous generations to come to conclusion of the gotra system..
    i mean how can they reach to such a coclusion of defining a Gotra system…

    I also enquire on the same lines as @sujit, @sanjay and @shweta…

    • http://www.hitxp.com Gurudev

      Very true Sainath and a very very important one to be answered to make the article complete :) Thanks for asking this. Have updated the article by adding an additional para about the same. Please let me know if that answers your question.

    • Anonymous

      Very true Sainath and a very very important one to be answered to make the article complete :) Thanks for asking this. Have updated the article by adding an additional para about the same. Please let me know if that answers your question.

  • Kiran_thogaru

    Awesome study. Worth to dig deeper.

    • http://www.hitxp.com Gurudev

      Definitely, I guess we are somewhere still at the tip of the iceberg in understanding the works of ancient Rishis

    • Anonymous

      Thanks Kiran, yes definitely worth digging deeper by the experts in the field :)

  • Anonymous

    Awesome work! No words…
    Really impressed with the write up.

    Thank god, No ‘interface’ concept is introduced here to solve multiple inheritance problem! :)

    • http://www.hitxp.com Gurudev

      Haha, Thank God biology doesn’t need interfaces here as it uses the strong and recessive genes to solve the problem :)

    • Anonymous

      Thanks Pranava.

      Thank God biology doesn’t need interfaces here as it uses the strong and recessive genes to solve the problem :)

  • http://profiles.google.com/sujitgopal1 sujit gopal

    But in Mahabharata, Arjuna took as his fourth wife his first and cross cousin Subhadra, the sister of Krishna. Also Arjuna’s Son, Abhimanyu himself married his first cross-cousin Sasirekha, the daughter of Subhadra’s brother Balarama. Yadu and Kuru dynasty shared the same lineage. Somewhere there Gotra should also be the same.

    Was Gotra systme strictrly followed by Brahmins only. As Kshatriyas seems were not so imppressed by Gotra system

    regards…Sujit

    • http://www.hitxp.com Gurudev

      Originally the Gotra system was meant for entire humanity (have updated the article by appending an additional paragraph at the end), because the Rishis listed are mostly Prajapatis who are considered to be root humans. Later as more professions got created outside the teaching or scholar class (Brahmins), I guess some of them stopped following this Gotra System. However, even today a lot of other classes (Other than Brahmins) also follow the Gotra System – See List Of Gotras
      Vishwamitra was a Kshatriya Originally, so those who come under VIshwamitra Gotra are technically from a warrior clan, even though they can be also Brahmins since Vishwamitra later also turned into a Brahmin making him one of those rare Brahma-Kshatriyas.

      Regarding Mahabharata, yes these incidents are definitely sagotra marriages, and as you said it looks like only Brahmins strictly followed this system :)
      Just to quote from modern scientific analysis, if you read these statistics at this link under the sub section Biological Aspects of First Cousin Marriage, you can see that such marriages have greater than normal chances of resulting in genetic disorders in the children.

    • Anonymous

      Originally the Gotra system was meant for entire humanity (have updated the article by appending an additional paragraph at the end), because the Rishis listed are mostly Prajapatis who are considered to be root humans. Later as more professions got created outside the teaching or scholar class (Brahmins), I guess some of them stopped following this Gotra System. However, even today a lot of other classes (Other than Brahmins) also follow the Gotra System – See List Of Gotras
      Vishwamitra was a Kshatriya Originally, so those who come under VIshwamitra Gotra are technically from a warrior clan, even though they can be also Brahmins since Vishwamitra later also turned into a Brahmin making him one of those rare Brahma-Kshatriyas.

      Regarding Mahabharata, yes these incidents are definitely sagotra marriages, and as you said it looks like only Brahmins strictly followed this system :)
      Just to quote from modern scientific analysis, if you read these statistics at this link under the sub section Biological Aspects of First Cousin Marriage, you can see that such marriages have greater than normal chances of resulting in genetic disorders in the children.

  • Sanjay Adasul

    Liked!! I always appreciate your work!!

    Well, I have question. As the gotra system is applicable only to Men (as female’s gotra is changed to her husband’s gotra), for marriages, how does it make difference which gotra does the female belong to?

    Let’s take example: A female from Gotra ‘A’ marries to a male from Gotra ‘B’ – thus she now belong to Gotra ‘B’; however over few generations; say her great-great-granddauther will have some gens coming down from her Gotra ‘A’ linage. Assuming this is true, when said g-g-granddaughter marries to a male from Gotra ‘A’ – would it not cause any genetic disorder?

    If not, how does it matter which gotra female belong to?

    Pls do not recommend me another reading of the article :)

    Cheers…
    Sanjay Adasul

    • http://www.facebook.com/shankar.narayanan85 Shankar Narayanan

      It matters before marriage and not after marriage.

      • Anonymous

        It actually matters even after marriage as the entire system is finally to have genetically more healthy offsprings :)

    • http://www.hitxp.com Gurudev

      Thanks Sanjay.
      No I definitely wont recommend reading it again. After completing writing it, just by scrolling all its length I was sure that nobody would read it. So many thanks for reading it once :)

      In the mentioned situation

      females never carry a Y Chromosome, and
      my assumption is that the 5% of the male Y Chromosomes which match with X are generally dominant genes over X

      and hence would override her Gotra A genes in that 5% of her X Chromosome in her children So there should be no problem later because her Children would carry Gotra B genes in that 5% location of their X Chromosomes. This is my assumption based on genetics of dominant and recessive genes.

      So the g-g-grand daughter will be carrying the Gotra B genes in that 5% of her X Chromosome which is compatible with Y. Hence the Gotra of a female is said to change after marriage as the Children will contain the dominant Y-Chromosome genes in the matching portion of the X Chromosome (ie even in female children).

      So if the g-g-grand daughter married another Gotra A person that should not cause any problem. However if she marries a Gotra B person then the genes she carries in that 5% region of her X Chromosome (which came from her gg grand father) will match with the Y of Gotra B person and so that would increase the chances of genetic disorders in the offspring.

      Here my assumption is that male’s 5% genes in Y which match with X are mostly dominant in nature, which again can be verified via genetic tests. Please let me know if this answers your question.

    • Anonymous

      Thanks Sanjay.
      No I definitely wont recommend reading it again. After completing writing it, just by scrolling all its length I was sure that nobody would read it. So many thanks for reading it once :)

      In the mentioned situation

      females never carry a Y Chromosome, and
      my assumption is that the 5% of the male Y Chromosomes which match with X are generally dominant genes over X

      and hence would override her Gotra A genes in that 5% of her X Chromosome in her children So there should be no problem later because her Children would carry Gotra B genes in that 5% location of their X Chromosomes. This is my assumption based on genetics of dominant and recessive genes.

      So the g-g-grand daughter will be carrying the Gotra B genes in that 5% of her X Chromosome which is compatible with Y. Hence the Gotra of a female is said to change after marriage as the Children will contain the dominant Y-Chromosome genes in the matching portion of the X Chromosome (ie even in female children).

      So if the g-g-grand daughter married another Gotra A person that should not cause any problem. However if she marries a Gotra B person then the genes she carries in that 5% region of her X Chromosome (which came from her gg grand father) will match with the Y of Gotra B person and so that would increase the chances of genetic disorders in the offspring.

      Here my assumption is that male’s 5% genes in Y which match with X are mostly dominant in nature, which again can be verified via genetic tests. Please let me know if this answers your question.

  • http://www.coroflot.com/simsingh/ Shweta

    I am big fan of your findings all the way and this is an excellent piece of writing. I read every word thoroughly and completely agree with your views. I strongly believe that there is a scientific reason for every prominent religious boundary in Hinduism.

    Thanks for sharing. But yes, one question in my mind – what about the other castes apart from Brahmins? Who do they belong to in terms of ancestors? I am talking about Kshatriyas, Vaishyas and Shudras. Any inputs?

    Thanks again! Love your work… keep it up!!

    - Shweta

    • http://www.hitxp.com Gurudev

      Thanks for liking the articles in this blog so much, I am humbled :)
      Have updated the article by adding a new para at the very end. The root Gotras start with the Rishis most of whom are Prajapatis ie the ones who were considered to be created at the beginning and who started their respective human progeny. So the root Gotrakarni Rishis were for entire humanity, and as later people picked up other professions other than thank of knowledge (ie other than Brahmins), some of the chose to retain their Gotra identity, while some chose not to do so.
      The ones who chose to do so again, either started with their Gotra beginning from the person where their sub lineage started, or chose to retain the original Brahminical Gotra lineage which is why you find many a non-Brahmins today having Brahminical Gotra names.

      Also people belonging to Vishwamitra Gotra or Sub Gotras are Kshatriyas originally because Vishwamitra was initially a Kshatriya who then went on to become Brahma-Kshatriya by attaining knowledge power.
      Here is a partial list of Gotras in other sections of the society
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_gotras

      Hope this answers your question. Thanks again for your encouraging words.

    • Anonymous

      Thanks for liking the articles in this blog so much, I am humbled :)

      Have updated the article by adding a new para at the very end. The root Gotras start with the Rishis most of whom are Prajapatis ie the ones who were considered to be created at the beginning and who started their respective human progeny. So the root Gotrakarni Rishis were for entire humanity, and as later people picked up other professions other than thank of knowledge (ie other than Brahmins), some of the chose to retain their Gotra identity, while some chose not to do so.
      The ones who chose to do so again, either started with their Gotra beginning from the person where their sub lineage started, or chose to retain the original Brahminical Gotra lineage which is why you find many a non-Brahmins today having Brahminical Gotra names.

      Also people belonging to Vishwamitra Gotra or Sub Gotras are Kshatriyas originally because Vishwamitra was initially a Kshatriya who then went on to become Brahma-Kshatriya by attaining knowledge power.
      Here is a partial list of Gotras in other sections of the society
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L

      Hope this answers your question. Thanks again for your encouraging words Shweta.

    • tp

       the concept is the same for all castes.. the only difference is the root of the lineage. i think this link has a list of all lineages.. check it out.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_gotras

  • http://www.youngindia99.com RajShekhar

    Good findings. It would be very good if all the hidden science of our ancestors from vedic maths to vedic gotra system, from ayurveda to surgical equipments, from atom bomb to space ships etc were given a label of universal truths by doing proper research. Once that is done i could not imagine how proud would be every Indian

  • Kaushik 1986

    Well said..Some people just can’t appreciate the beauty of simplicity! Your logic is amazing. Hats off!

  • s.neelakantan

     good reasoning !
    this will be a goood way to counter debate those atheists who don’t want to belive in true knowledge given by any religion :)