I was trying to search for some information about the nature of monkey like characters in Ramayana and any related research about these beings called vanars.
Note that its not only monkey like beings, but also bear like beings that are mentioned in Ramayana.
Given the ancient timescale of Ramayana occurring in Treta yuga, were these some kind of hominid species.. like monkey-humans and bear-humans of prehistoric period?
And I stumbled upon this wonderful link. Of Monkeys, Men and Cataclysms by Blair A. Moffett.
Here it is stated that the monkeys in Ramayana could actually be Neanderthaloids who co-existed with the Homo-Sapiens then!
Also it has to be noted that, archaeological evidences suggest that Neanderthals lived in South India from about 5,00,000 to 40,000 years ago.
Similarly, I think the bear like beings like Jambavantha mentioned in Ramayana are what are known as Yetis in other parts of the world. Was it a group of Homo Erectus? Please see this link
I strongly believe that Rama era was true Given the recent fact of Adams Bridge,@Palk Strait, early Homo sapiens(Monkey like early Humans which Gradually evolved into Flatter faces today),adding to the finding of Adams Bridge by NASA that is counted as 70000 years old approx where Ram era is 6000 yrs old i would like to clarify that NASA is totally right Ram and his Army only reconstructed that bridge which was already there for thousands of years.
The other day, I was watching National Geographic show about mysterious skulls of Palau (Micronesia). That research, I think, is still going on. According to that research, they found a large number of skulls, bones, teeth and other items that indicate presence of a human like miniaturized version of people, who existed in Palau till about 3000 years ago. Makes me wonder if these miniaturized people with facials looking like monkeys/bears, etc. were a later detereiorated version of monkey people who lived in the era of Ramayan.
Yes I strongly believe that what people think to be monkeys talking like humans are actually a different human sub species or near relatives. I mean the other day I saw a program in NG about people with such looks living even today, not sure where probably on some Indonesian Islands I guess, not sure about the location.
The existence of Neandrathrals around 7000-10000 yrs ago,who totally resemble with lord Hanumana has been predicted by Scientists.The period of Ramayana at the time when Lord Rama and Hanumana existed and as determined by some Indian and European scholars also happens to be around the same period approx. 5200 B.C. Besides ancient records in Sanskrit clearly indicate Ramayana and Mahabharata as “Itihaasas” meaning History in English (which unlike “Vishnupurana” and “Shivapurana” are not “Puranas” meaning Mythology in English.
Thanks for the comments Gaurav.
Yes, given the time lineage of Ramayana, it is very much possible that Vanaras were neanderthals. And what’s more, when Sugreeva wants to build the vanara army to fight Ravana, it is clearly mentioned in Ramayana that vanaras from all over the world came over. The places mentioned are Himalayas, Meru (in modern tibet), Vindhyas (modern Madhya pradesh), etc. There are also other geographies whose modern locations we are not sure about like Dhumragiri, Ajjanparvat. There are also mentions of vanara locations like – places where Sun always shines and always sets (probably poles)!
Now, the fact is that puranas are also history. Infact purana means of ancient times! It has been taught wrongly in our schools that ancient Indians did not maintain historic records, while the fact is that puranas written at regular intervals of time were to record the then history of Indian subcontinent, which is why you find lots of these puranas and each belongs to a different era of time. And that is also the reason why you have apart from the very old 18 puranas which document oldest history, you also have many puranas like shivapurana, harivamsa etc which talk about comparitively recent history. Then you also have sthala puranas which talk about the history of individual places, then there are kula puranas which talk about the history of a particular lineage. So Puranas are not Mythology :)
Mahabharatha and Ramayana belong to two great historical era somewhat akin to world wars in modern history are so well documented and hence the most popular documented forms of history, since unlike puranas they are complete in the sense they track a large sequence of events completely ie the life of Rama, and the Kaurava-Pandava histories respectively, and hence look more like a detailed story, and are of course more fascinating than puranas.
Probably a good link to read about Puranas would be http://pseudosecularism.blogspot.com/2008/06/puranas-source-of-ancient-indian.html
Why do people think that ram and krishna did not exist – is it because the westeners will laugh at you if you tell them these “tales”. There are literally thousands of white people who believe that these stories are there people (Aryan) .Dwarka which has sunk at approx time it says in the mahabharat has been found – there is Adam’s bridge – there are constellations to give the reader the era these “stories” happened. I guarantee you that muslims or christians had any proof of there religion they owuld not stop being 1. proud and 2.promoting it.
Yes Robert, the many Indians have been so systematically brain washed by this English education to such a extent that they think its all myth and demand scientific proofs and again decide what kind of scientific proof they want, for while Newton’s science is science to them, quantum mechanics is not! Many of these so called scientific intellectual are so outdated even in science that you give them a valid quantum mechanical scientific scenario, and they will call it unscientific :)
Hi Gurudev,Great interpretations .Man i m proud of you.You are awesome in explaining our roots to us.Keep going.Why are there no new blogs.Could you do some similar research in the worship of Shiva Linga and the hidden meaning of the story attributed to it by our divine sages.I am sure what is told about its origin should not be understood as it is but with an open mind .
Rama and Krishna symbolise hinduism.They are source of faith for millions of human.It is very sad to see our politicians playing with their faith be it the ayodha issue or the recent rama setu.we will never know if these people exist in flesh and blood and we should never try to ,what is the point in doubting . Rather than focussing on such controversial issue we should focus on making our country a better place to live.
i would like to know abt kalki …….if any one is intrested……….i got some information from veerabrahmam’s book abt the time of appearance of kalki…….and the society or people or atmosphere then…………..i would like to know abt the appearance of kalki
guru,
i do believe in the existance of rama or hanuman in the past…………..vedas,dharma or karma………but its not just the information which we should be intrested in ……..
let me come to the point …………………
in this present yuga …..or the present period….so many anti_social activities going around us………….murders cheating,rape,politics,breakage of family system{here i refer to decrease in joint families from our previous generation to that of ours and now mostly nuclear families and this actually puts a lot of responsibility of rearing up of child on the parents and that too nowadays i find most of the parents busy in their career and i have seen many of my friends of such a kind of families where both parents are busy brother in us ..or sister in uk….etc….now only induvidual is left …..and he is not exposed so many things he should be exposed to but he is now exposed to both good and bad …..and obviously bad tastes good in the beginning……………….and even increasing divorse rates almost 4 times in one year from 2006 to 2007……}all this leading to still further breakage of our system……………and slowly losing our mother tiongue itself………………..
soo i agree with u that tales like panchatantra are needed now………
but still more i would like to say that ,i dont remember any god saying “”common read abt me or or worship me “” but i always found him saying to choose the right path…in ur life let it be in bhagvat gita or ramayana {found so many good things while reading ramayana …}………if u take crist,or guru nanak ,or saibaba…………any body……..they all focussed on right living ………………so i feel following them is much more important ……………than reading abt them………………….and i feel that its our generation that needs ramayana etc………more than that of our previous ones………….
its my small advice to the readers that if u believe rama{crist, sai,etc….} then follow him rather than praising his name or worshipping them……….thats the real essence of religion{dharma}
I found your blog very interesting, Gurudev (is that your real name or a pseudonymn?). Unlike what Prasad or Ramana insinuated, I found your views quite balanced and well researched having done quite a bit of reasearch myself on ancient Indian civilizations and beliefs myself. By categorising your obvious leaning towards idealizing ancient Hindu beliefs as fanaticism and abusing your beliefs without any logic to back it up, Prasad and Ramana are the ones who appear to be fanatical in their aim to discredit the merit of attempting to interpret ancient legends – they should remember that a fanatic can be also be somebody who is against personal religious belief.
I don’t believe in Ram’s divinity (just like I don’t believe in the divinity of Jesus or Buddha, both of whom were no doubt great philosophers and teachers) but I do believe he was a man who existed ages ago and that his adventures are chronicled in the Ramayan, although the narrative was embellished by several later writers and religious groups to attain its current form where it resembles fantasy fiction more than history. I personally subscribe to the belief that the vaanars were apes that had not fully evolved into men (neanderthals or some other similar race could in fact be the answer as you point out). This is verified in the Mahabharata as well when Krishna encounters Jambavan (the man-bear from Ramayan) in a chapter and the latter says he is one of the last surviving creatures out of his kind and that he is living in hiding since his kind has almost vanished is not welcome in society anymore. The story may or may not be true but it at least shows that the person who wrote that chapter several centuries ago had reason to believe that the race of vaanars was almost extinct (due to the process of evolution).
This implies several things. First, the story of Ramayan is very ancient if it happened at the time when some races were still in the process of evolution – it also explains why there was so much time for the story to make its way into the legends of various civilizations outside India. Second, the story of Mahabharat occurred a few thousand of years after the Ramayan since it takes such time for an entire race to become extinct. Third, it proves that the vaanars were not simply products of an active imagination since there is no reason for a chapter in the Mahabharat to mention Jambavan as an irrelevant side character (as if it was obvious to readers at that time why Jambavan’s race is almost extinct).
Finally, it is time that people (the educated ones at least) stopped confusing Hinduism with belief in Ram. Hinduism is a combination of religion and philosophy (best summarised in the Bhagvad Gita) that helps one lead lead a better life. Its key principles have even been echoed, knowingly or unknowingly, by great non-Hindu teachers such as Buddha and Jesus. The problem is that the fundamental tenets have become so mingled with rituals, history and legend that it appears primitive to the western world. An example is the current debate about the existence of Ram, which has been misinterpreted as a debate about respect for Hinduism. People who still confuse an ancient hero with a broad religion might want to think again if they remember that Ram is mentioned but not worshipped by any of the characters in the Mahabharat, proving that his worship as a deity was started much later!
For those actively following this discussion, try the following link.
It puts a lot of Ramayana ‘facts’ into context. And also provides the reasoning behind how the birthday/ era of Rama is being figured out.
i was in the 4th standard when i first put my mind to the issue. Somewhere down i line i put it aside. Now i am nearing 40. If this link is useful, and if you’d like to hear (paradigm shifting) hypotheses, and if I come back to the site, i’ll put in my 2 cents worth too!
On a side note, if we can put in so much thought into thinking about ram, why cant we put any thought into coming up with ideas to help farmers from commiting suicide. Even if we resolve the issue of ram’s origin and his tryst with hanuman, people are still going to go to sleep hungry. And those hungry people are perhaps the staunchest followers.
Anyway, enjoy!
(i know gurudev is going to really get a kick out of these facts)
http://www.stephen-knapp.com/lord_rama_fact_or_fiction.htm
its been very good to know all ur thinkings but i feel all is good i n these things he is every were & he will b thr with us in every form
If you see the horoscope of Sri Rama, the planet Sun is elevated (apart from 4 others that are elevated). Sun is elevated during the Solar month of Aires (April-May). So wondering how Jan 10th can be Rama’s DOB.
Awesome article and great follow up. Great work Guru.
RAMA’S BRIDGE
I stumbled over this short article about Rama’s Bridge today, and thought some of you people here, will find it to be of interest, or is it perhaps old news?:
Did Rama exist? This came up as a topic for a multi-media presentation at Tattvaloka, a centre of truth, here, last evening when D K Hari, conceptualiser, Bharath Gyan, presented ‘Historical Rama’.
When Jesus, Prophet Mohammad are said to have been existed, Rama should have also existed. This was how he began his answer to a self-raised query.
There being no archaeological evidence, history has to be seen as a source. And divinity bestowed on the person Rama does not come into the picture, he said while stating that it is left to the believers and there can be no controversy over that.
While the period of Lord Krishna could be conceived Lord Rama’s is very difficult. And since lineage of 50 generations are available it could be culled from historical facts. Narada narrated the story of Rama to sage Valmiki, who then wrote Ramayana. ‘Ra’ which glows and there from Ravi for Sun that brightly shines is derived. And hence the word radium that emits light. In Egypt and Malaysia, the names Rameses, Rames etc stand evidence to a fact and not mythology.
Hari thus goes on with historical evidences and proof of the fact that Rama did live. Those were the time when there was no clock to perceive time. Sky was the clock, 27 stars, seven planets with whose positions time was arrived at. And thus 10 January, 5114 BCE, was the Sri Rama Navami Day (thithi) and Panarvasu star was when Rama’s birth took place. High degree of probability is there in this calculation with the use of modern software, traditional archaeology and marine archaeology giving a helping hand.
As far as Rama’s bridge, Adam’s bridge or Rama Sethu was concerned, it was during Rama’s period that the bridge was built by vanara army in five days on the shallow bed (ford) where various trees were laid and rocks placed, not an unorthodox construction but an engineering skill – well planned and executed – the references of which abound.
It is a historical truth when the Britishers wanted to construct a shipping canal in 1860, it was dropped as it was thought that it would hurt the sentiments. There was a period when the Britishers thought of laying a railway link between India and Sri Lanka on the Adam’s bridge. Everywhere there was reference to Ramar bridge. NASA also with the satellite photograph has picturised the bridge and mentioned that the depth was 4 feet.
Till 1460 BCE, people were crossing to Sri Lanka by foot. And later probably a tsunami or some thing caused the sea level to raise. Clinching evidences are there that a man-made bridge was there and now it is nine feet deep in the sea.
Hari establishes by various historical evidences that there was mention of the bridge by Moghuls, Britishers, seafarers like Vascoda Gama, Columbus and others. No religious connotation, but a monument which should be preserved, whether Rama constructed the bridge or not.
Associate Editor of News Today V Sundaram spoke on the Ramar bridge and the importance of preserving it. He highly appreciated the effort of D K Hari who does research on these historical important issues through his multimedia concept in which he has 64 various presentations like ‘Historical Rama’, of ancient India and its splendour.
Source: http://www.newstodaynet.com/08jul/rf1.htm
THanks for the interesting link Manmath :)
http://www.spiritualresearchfoundation.org/spiritualresearch/spiritualscience/armageddon/
Nala Neela Angada Vali Sugreeva Gavaksha Kesari Kratha Mainda Dwivida Dhumra Darimukh Sharabh Kumud Vahni Durmukh Indrajanu Gandhamadana Panasa Sushena Shatabali Gaja etc
You can find them all in the Kishkinda Kanda of Ramayana
Dear Guru,
can u send me some vanaras names (at least 20) ….
Hi Gurudev,
Firstly, thanx for the wonderful work you are doing!
Since this article is related to Ramayana, I would like to point to a research work done By Shri Harminder Singh Sikka In Sri Lanka About certain facts of Ramayana.
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.music.indian.classical/browse_thread/thread/77c596393ae0d5ed/879a48255fecbb2f
In fact, this thing was aired on Zee Tv few months back, my guess, in the background of the whole ‘Ram doesn’t exist by Karunanidhi’ controversy.
Ramana
Panchatantra are one of my favorites! :)
They dont teach you how to cheat.. they teach you how to avoid getting cheated yourself. They teach us how to recognize those who try to cheat us.
Believe me, in these days these stories are very much required if we have to build a wise society.
Look at these panchatantra stories, everywhere they show that trying to amass wealth by illegal means or trying to gain power by foul practises only leads to destruction, they show that no matter how powerful/wealthy you are if you are not wise enough then that power/wealth will be gone in no time.. etc
I have read so many panchatantra stories and all they convey is that we be wiser and use our brains in the right way. I dont recollect any story asking us to be cunning. There is a difference between cunningness and wisdom, I guess someone here needs to go back and read the stories once more ;) It seems that we have people here who relinquish bashing up revered texts such as Ramayana, Panchatantra, etc, by arguing in the most foolish and arrogant way possible. Thank GOD I read panchatantra else I would have be another such dumb person ;) Just kidding.
Panchatantra are another useless stories for modern India!!
We should stop revering these stories and stop teaching wrong things to our children.
The central character in all these stories is Jackal or Fox. Only thing they can do is how to trick and subverts the system. Only thing they teach is TRICKERY, TRICKERY TRICKERY!! This kind of Trickery and wise ass attitude works when you are under someone?s rule like British. May be some extent justified during those oppressed times.
This kind of Trickery and cunningness continues to pervade in all our economic,political and social systems in India even today… We continuously look for loop holes in the system Our words are as strong as liquid water. We need to verify and re verify words before we take them serious. Corruption is part of life! There is no Predictable outcome unless you have money.. Ethics in business is zero. Tricking some one and out smarting some one is complimented.
I am not blaming Panchatantra for all the ill things., but it certainly contributes to the thought process of children , when they are at tender age.
We need to teach our children how to be brave, stand for the right causes , protect the minorities, compassion for unfortunate ones.
We need stop idolizing Panchatara stories , simply recognize they are part of million stories floating around.
ohhhh then lord hanuman is a homo erectus i mean neanderthals om goshhhhhhhhhh i can not still m confused oh godddd
looks like a nice autobiography, read some reviews.. thanks akshay!
One can go through the book living with the himalayan masters
-By swamy rama
Ramana
I have NOT DECLARED that Neanderthals are vanaras. All I have said is that it is a POSSIBILITY that is worth exploring. And I have provided information and material for this which anybody can do a google search and verify.
What is wrong in the information that I have provided? Instead of repeatedly using the word nonsense, why dont you show where what is wrong!! What is it that has been twisted in what I said?
Just because you dont like the idea based on some prejudice, please dont call those fanatics who try to explore it. This is what the pseudo-secularists in India have been doing.
If I really wanted to write cock and bull stories to suit any prejudice of mine, I would have written a dozen of them every day in this blog making even Muller and Macaulay turn in their grave :)
There was no need for me to painstakingly gather information for each post, verify it, doubt it, reverify it, get convinced, look from another angle, reply in detail to comments etc..
But I am not a fanatic like Max Muller or Macauley to create such stories which has today made the entire line of western historians being doubted! I know that even if I create such stories today, it will be just a matter of time before the real truth is revealed.
Yes indeed! will do the same time! I will praise Hinduism and criticize the blind followers of them who are taking every word to word to prove the point.
Note: I grew up in Vedic surroundings and actually studied quantum mechanics.
LOL, everyone is claiming to be a Hindu and a Brahmin to drive their point, this is interesting. I shall make a note of it.
Double LOL, People are themselves being fanatic in Blindly disagreeing to others’ point of view, and claim others to come out of fanaticism.
Triple LOL, Hindu-text bashing and simultaneous praising, very interesting indeed.
India has so many stories , If you have patience enough , to listen , they eventually contradict themselves.
Rama’s journey to south and linking to Neanthderals existence is simply nonsense if not outright stupid.
I understand why Prasad is concerned about your views, because your views are becoming increasingly fanatic.
Gurudev , You can not twist science to fit your religious views and your ideology. It is utter non sense to ask and dedicate valuable resources of a country to prove some of your fanatic and religious views.
Gurudev , if you build rocket through these cock and bull stories , it will not go beyond your back yard.
you call educated people are psuedo scientists because they don?t believe in what you believe?
Mathematics and science are the new languages of GOD!
I still believe in Hinduism, and it can offer great insights in to the creation of universe and our search for ultimate truth.
Gurudev. .small advice .. As young as you are , you have so much to offer but don?t let them be guided by fanaticism.
( Prasad, by the way I am Hindu and Brahmin)
Gurudev you are doing an awesome job. Thanks for sharing the knowledge with everone and doing so you are doing a great work through your blog i was able to find most of the answers for questions like which some IDIOTS intensionly ask just for criticizing hindusim and trying to proove something..and i support you 100% that most of educated people are pseudo scientific ..and i think in most of the books now available people write that they think or just translate without knowing the core of hinduism..i read somewher in ur blog that everybody cant really understand the religion..for that a person should be mentally developed to that stage then only a person can understand religion and MOST IMPORTANTLY THEY HAVE THE RIGHT TO SPEAK ABOUT THAT ,,,it is not like as most of the people do read someline fromsomewhere and start talking about that . you have to go step by step for everything…a person who studied till 2nd standard will not a able to do a research phd in medicine..you are indeed doing a great work
Thanks Ravi for those nice links.. yes, we need to dig deeper to see the neanderthal link, and this very neanderthal connection dates back Ramayana deep back in what we today call pre-historic period..
My list of things to do in life is growing with a great pace in the past few months. Life on earth is becoming more and more interesting :)
Hi, my name is disman-kl, i like your site and i ll be back ;)
?Vanara? means ?human-like? in Sanskrit (?Vaa Nara? literally translates to ?Is it a human??). Sure?monkeys, apes and other primates are ?human-like?. Then, how about considering these possiblities as well:
1) Could the Vaanaras have been a vibrant group of Neanderthals – a hominid species that co-existed with the Homo Sapiens (human beings) during a bygone era (now called the Ramayana)?
Modern-day anthropologists have been discovering skeletal remains of Neanderthals (?Cave Men?) and Homosapiens in the same sites dating back to the same time period – which gives the anthropologists some strong reasons to believe that these two species co-existed during some period of time.
Could the Ramayana have been the last recorded human testimony of a synergistic interaction between Human Beings (led by Sri Rama) and Neanderthals (led by Sugreeva, Hanuman and others)?
Do The descriptions of the Vaanaras in the Valmiki Ramayanam anyway match the modern-day anthropological descriptions of Neanderthals – protuding jawbones/mouths, sloping foreheads, hairy bodies?. the use of crude weapons like wooden clubs, tree branches and stones as weapons in warfare (as opposed to homo sapiens who were more sophisticated and used wheel-driven chariots, steel swords, bows, arrows, javelins etc) ?
Is it possible that Neanderthals could have had boneless, prehensile tails that do decompose after death and do not leave behind any ?smoking gun? fossil remains?
Doesn?t Valmiki?s description of the Vaanara kingdom (Kishkindha) resemble that of a subterranean network of natural, undeground caves?. that are natural places of dwelling for ?cave men? (Neanderthals).
2) Alternately, is it also possible that the Vaanaras were a cave-dwelling tribe of humans that used a human-like symbol (totem pole), either ?monkey? or another primate, during warfare?. and hence were refered to figuratively as such by Valmiki who was a poet-biographer ?
3) Anyway, I thought it might be interesting to leave you with something that is not surprising news to residents of Rameshwaram (or those pilgrims who have visited the Rameshwaram temple)?. the possibility that a bridge could have been built with ?floating rocks?.
The news-story of the floating rocks (from Rameshwaram?s coastline) with a photograph can be seen at:
http://timesnow.tv/NewsDtls.aspx?NewsID=3176
While the video of such a floating rock can be seen at:
http://video.newkerala.com/Current-Affairs-Videos/287.html
Guru,
Just to share some info – we are presently in the seventh manvantara, and 28th mahayuga, and 5000 years have elapsed in this mahayuga’s kaliyuga.
Kali Yuga – 4,32,000 human years
Dwapara Yuga – 8,64,000 human years
Treta Yuga – 12,96,000 human years.
In am not sure but have heard people say that Ramayana happened not in the treta yuga of this magayuga but in the treta yuga of 2nd mahayuga. Also not sure if at all that mahayuga was of this (7th) manvantara. Do you have any info on this.
Anyway even if we suppose that Ramayana happened in this mahayuga’s treta yuga, then approximately 10 lakh years or so have elapsed from then. Is there any scientific evidence that neandrathals existed at that time.
you read the Vedas as well as the Ramayana and Mahabharata in sanskrit.
do you recommended any ‘properly translated’ versions of the same for those who are not versed in sanskrit or are learning the same?
max muller and his deliberate twistings aside, are there any well translated versions ?
We need an Oppenheimer to tell us that Mahabharatha war was probably a nuclear war! If somebody amongst us tells the same, we simply brush it aside as nonsense!
True , that is our mentality!
Keep blogging such things, Gurudev :D
Prateesh, saraswati, shweta and Arun
Thanks for your comments.
Arun, that was a good one ‘have you seen dufai, if you havent, does that means dufai doesnt exists’
Sounded like Zen philosophy, practically philosophical and philosophically practical! :)
@guru,
Great article man…
Enjoyed reading this…
appreciates the effort and dedication for compiling this..
some of the responses were marvelous….
keep it up guys…
enjoyed reading each and every part
@Prasad
Come on man… This is a blog..
you can take it or find your way… start a blog and contradict him…. see whether there are takers for it..
but never get personal….
Dont you think, there is a ‘tiny tiny possibility’ that it can be true…
doesnt means that what u cant see and feel is not real..
“”have you seen dufai, if you havent, does that means dufai doesnt exists… “” this is a dialogue from a malayalam film.. i enjoyed quoting it here…
All crime and bad deeds are already too much now. There’s a big need of a savior!
anybody interested in Ramayana and it’s modern applications should take a look at this.
http://www.myspace.com/solardynastymusic
I totally agree with u Guru when you say
“”I believe that people start getting personal when they fail to support their arguments anymore!””
Thats exactly people are trying to do in their stupid, nonsense responses.
Prasad
I simply loved the sarcastic nature of your reply :)
You have attributed me with such great names which I never attribute to myself, like Sanskrit Pandit, true purveyor, etc. Thanks for recognizing me to a level which I myself have not been able to !
First and foremost, where did I ever say that “”neanderthals became homo sapiens”” ? How can I or anybody ever say that?
Saying dinosaurs lived in a place 65 million years ago, does it mean that later they became mammals of today? This is the same kind of wrong interpretation of vedic texts I was talking about. When I stated Blair A. Moffett that probably vanaras in Ramayana were Neanderthals, you interpreted it wrongly as if I was saying that Humans today in South India were neanderthals!!!! Neanderthals and Homo Sapiens are TWO DIFFERENT SPECIES altogether.
Why do you misquote sentences? I said “”most of the so called educated Indians today are pseudo-scientific””, and you conveniently misquoted it as “”Educated Indians today are pseudo-scientific””!! Isnt there a difference between the two lines?
Isnt the existence of the submerged city of Dwaraka, which is said to have been submerged at the end of Mahabharatha, a proof for Mahabharatha being history and not fiction?
I am not here to “”change”” people, especially when somebody is determined “”not to”” :)
Neanderthals existed in South India during the Ramayana need not mean that no humans existed in South India. Where in Ramayana has it been said that whole of South India was vanaras? While wandering in the forest of South India Rama also met other humans other than vanaras. Infact the geography of vanaras mentioned in South India is mainly of Kishkinda which is a small place in modern Karnataka near Hampi. Not only that, Ramayana also mentions of Vanaras who arrived from different parts of the world to help Rama, and the places mentioned are Himalayas, Meru (in modern tibet), Vindhyas (modern Madhya pradesh), etc. There are also other geographies whose modern locations we are not sure about like Dhumragiri, Ajjanparvat. There are also mentions of vanara locations like places where Sun always Shines and always sets (probably poles).
As I said, the idea of Neanderthals put forward by Blair A. Moffett is worth a discussion and research, instead of brushing it off just because it doesnt fit our personal egos and prejudices.
When I said ?Do not compare Ramayana and Mahabharatha to Panchatantra and Jataka they were stories?.
Vishnu Sharma for instance has clearly said that Panchatantra are stories. Valmiki or Vyasa have never said that they were writing stories! Have they?
There are clearcut geographical locations, chronological orders, astronomical dates mentioned in the epics. Are they there in the stories of Panchatantra?
You said “”we might find the fossil of an animal with larynx.”” You said it in a sarcastic manner, but I agree even on that, whats the harm if we find one? It will give a new twist to evolution. We should first stop ‘expecting’ what ‘should be’ the result of a research, and start ‘accepting’ as things come out to be.
Isnt it better to do research and get convinced, than to sit back and pass judgements?
“”You have the language of the priestly class”” – now this is sheer nonsense and you are getting personal. Withhold such comments in the future. I havent said anything about your personal background. To whichever class I belong to thats none of your business. I believe that people start getting personal when they fail to support their arguments anymore!
About ASI, ASI is obviously not doing the excavations/research that it is supposed to do. It is simply playing at the hands of political class which the recent submission and the subsequent withdrawal of the affidavit from the supreme court proved. ASI made an affidavit on Ramsethu which doesnt even come under its jurisdiction! How can ASI pass a judgement on things which it never investigated about?
The more one has to go back in history, the more deeper the excavations have to be, this is one of the basic principle of archaeological excavations. Please see to what depths excavations have been done in Egypt, in Mohen Jo daro etc and what our ASI has done at the Indian historic sites. That should give you an idea about the ASI excavations.
Religion is a personal choice and if today number of Buddhists is less in India it simply means that people have taken to other religions. So what?
And what is this about Shuklacharya? It is Shukracharya not Shuklacharya, and what has be got to do with Buddhism. Shukracharya is mentioned in the ancient texts as the teacher of Asuras and this was milleniums before even Buddha was born!
Using a different language like Pali doesnt mean a different ideology, does it? Today we use Kannada, Hindi, Telugu more than Sanskrit, so does it mean that we reject Sanskrit/Vedas?
Buddha was against caste system, animal sacrifices, about the high handedness of vedic authorities and whom you call today as the ‘priestly class’.
Vedic texts do not preach superiority by birth. See http://hitxp.wordpress.com/2007/05/29/caste-system-is-not-vedic/
Infact the two main buddhist teachings are about Sathya and Dharma, and these have their origin in the vedas as Satyameva Jayate and Dharmo Rakshathi Rakshithaha.
Yogas, meditation, mantras, philosophy of Karma, all exist in Buddhism and have their roots in the vedic texts.
See the last section in the link below
http://home.iprimus.com.au/btheos/articles/HeritageOfIndia.htm
FYI, its not written by somebody whom you call to belong to the so called “”priestly class””
Buddhist scholar Rahula Vipola wrote that the Buddha was trying to shed the true meaning of the Vedas. Buddha is said to be a knower of the Veda (vedajña) or of the Vedanta (vedântajña) (Sa.myutta, i. 168) and (Sutta Nipâta, 463)
Finally, even if Buddha was against vedas. So what? Obviously when there is a new spiritual leader/religion/thought process, it will have its own ideology. Muslims dont believe in Bible. Christians dont believe in Quran, etc.. So???
Its the ancient vedic culture in the world which says that all people are same, all gods are one and the same by saying things like Vasudaiva Kutumbakam, Ekam Sath, etc.
It was only Swami Vivekananda who at the world parliament of religions said on behalf of Hindus, “”May He who is the Brahman of the Hindus, the Ahura-Mazda of the Zoroastrians, the Buddha of the Buddhists, the Jehovah of the Jews, the Father in Heaven of the Christians, give strength to you to carry out your noble idea!””
See http://www.lifepositive.com/Spirit/masters/swami-vivekananda/chicago.asp
Guru,
Neandrethals existed no doubt, so according to your argument at the time of Ramayana the people in the north were fully evolved homo sapiens and the people in the south were still in the process of evolution hence the sub species of va-nara with monkey like features. Since you also claim that you have the exact geographical location and astronomical date and timing. Can you corroborate that at that particular time we had neandrethal like life forms in the south. Have we found any fossils that suggest to this effect. Please forward any link or name of a book or a museum where it has been established without reasonable doubt that we had such life forms in the south during the time of Rama. Philistines like me would surely love to rise to your exhalted scientific level.
To quote you “”People TODAY in South India are homo sapiens, not neanderthals”” so you mean to say that only today (kali yug)they have become homo sapiens but during the time of Rama (treta yug)they were neandrethals. I bow down to your scientific outlook.
“”Do not compare Ramayana and Mahabharatha to Panchatantra and Jataka they were stories”” using the same premise that you have said Rama walked in flesh and blood. why not? we do see lions and so many animals mentioned there must have been talking wildlife aeons back. who knows if we dig further we might find the fossil of an animal with larynx.
“”Do not compare Hanuman photo with Ganesha idol drinking milk”” wow…. so you believe the photo is true. It clearly looks like a Sivakasi calendar and you want people to believe that. I have to accept you are smooth very smooth. At one instance you talk of quantum mechanics, Oppenheimer, Bohr, Schrodinger, Feynmann etc and in the same vein with a deft tongue you expect us to believe in a Hanuman photograph. You have the language of the priestly class. I will not be suprised if you belong to one.
Please let me know who was that Indian who said the Mahabharath war alluded to a nuclear war much before Robert Oppenheimer?
So what even if there were a 100 lineages mentioned in Mahabharath. what are you trying to infer- we have to take it very seriously just because of that. Okay we have accidently discovered Dwarka, fine then we shall ask the ASI to petition the UN to give it a world heritage site status or better still we shall send deep sea diving and excavation specialists to excavate for whatever its worth.
Yetis, sasquatch, abominable snow man, we have heard a lot of these stories many claim to have seen these lifeforms but sadly there are no fossils not even a single bone to substanciate their presence. If you have any info regarding the fossils please enlighten me and Where have I claimed that there were no Dinosaurs?
About the salt water turning sweet that was hilarious infact more people should have been encouraged to drink the water. sadly the water was not life threatening; atleast it would have lessened the population a bit. Nobody is claiming amenesia here nor afraid to talk about it.
Yes sir, I agree you are the true purveyor and only you have the prerogative for scientific(?) thought. Besides only you can understand what ails India :-)
proof for artisitic expressions. looks like you wanted Valmiki to write some more epics, wasnt the Ramayana enough.
If vanara had two different meanings why was it conveniently chosen to be interpreted only as “”monkey like humans”” O great sanskrit pandit.
So you very peacefully concluded that ordinary people get their knowlwdge from TV serials. I bow to you once again :-)
My My such impertinence from the ASI. We shall immediately start a signature campaign to have them dig 120 meters.(60 doesnt sound good) please lead the campaign sir.
You shine once again sire, 5 horses=5 horse power that is the master stroke. I wonder what Icarus had besides wax and feathers to fly, the greeks also must have had the same technology.
You said it “”Educated Indians today are pseudo-scientific”” You exhibit a certain scientific mind does that mean you are uneducated?
As far as I know, besides you sir nobody else knows that brahma is the personification of the mortal universe. :-)
“”provided we have the patience to read the actual texts and try to understand it”” now sir how can mere mortals have access to the actual texts. Do we still have it or has Max Mueller already moved it long back to Germany? Vivekananda was right what we have hardly amounted to 8 percent of the original texts
what is it in humans that there is a constant craving for a deliverer or savior?
Metaphors and Metaphors so kalki is akin to a good politician.
Now that you have brought Buddha & Mahaveera into the picture you would do well to know that Buddha never was a proponent of the vedas. In fact he stirred clear of vedic culture. His teachings were written in pali and not sanskrit. Some smart alec surreptitiously added him as one of the dashavathar. If Buddha was so revered why was buddhism so completely routed from India? Today it is followed by more number of people outside India than in India.
I am sure you must very well be aware of the infamous Vakkan (one eyed) shuklacharya the destroyer of Buddhism in India. once again the priestly class had demonstrated that they would go to any lenghts to maintain their hegemony.
Yes Veronica
The exact lines mentioned in the Bhagavadgita say that whenever there is a rise in the negativity all over the world, a new incarnation of the supreme consciousness will appear to counter and contain that negativity..
and its said “”Sambhavami Yuge Yuge””, meaning this happens in every yuga..
Now whether this really means war! I am not sure :)
Also remembered this while talking to one of the blog visitors today.. while at Hrishikesh near the Himalayas a few years back I remember seeing some of the Sadhus(Saints).. they were not bothered about their surroundings.. there were no expressions of any kind on their faces.. it was impossible to speak about their mood by looking at their faces.. infact looked like they didnt have any moods at all! they didnt talk either! and more importantly, their eyes looked somewhat very powerful, concentrated and energetic!
Dear Shweta & Guru
I wanted to know if mention was made of a future war because I?ve heard it includes every living/ and departed soul. A complete war. Not a war in which u can choose sides, it can also explains the photo if it is indeed real and can give some credit to the story of sages/ avatars/ etc abiding in the Himalayas. There are those who have written/ said that currently some enlightened souls are busy working in the invisible realm counter acting mankind?s thought patterns, while keeping at bay the monsters we collectively have created . If our true essence is the unmanifested temporarily manifested in form then what we think we create, thoughts are things in an invisible realm which one day can manifest in the physical world given our habitual thought patterns. This is why I wanted to know if such a war was mentioned or if it is just something someone recently have invented.
Prasad
Neanderthals! They did exist for sure, we have ample proof about their existence :)
People today in South India are homo sapiens, not neanderthals! And by the way this is just a possibility that is being explored about vanaras, instead of ruling it out as nonsense.
Anyway we cant expect this investigation from scientific(?) minded Indians who call anything that is incomprehensible to them as unscientific. This view is of Blair A. Moffett
I dont think you can compare Ramayana with Panchatantra or Jataka.. The latter were stories, and we all know it.
Rama on the other hand walked with flesh and blood on this planet. The epic not only contains geographical locations , but also precise astronomical datings.
Any person who thinks as these epics like Ramayana and Mahabharatha as mere stories should answer one important question and this is about astronomical datings. If it was mere story and not history being documented, what was the need for the author to go into such great pains giving details about mentioning the exact dates of the events?!
Why for instance in Mahabharatha there are over 50 lineages mentioned while the main story itself revolves around 3-4??
Thank God, atleast for Mahabharatha we have proofs in the form of submerged cities like Dwaraka, and even these things were not investigated and discovered by Indians with a quest to know their past, it was ACCIDENTALLY discovered in the seas of Gujarat. We Indians are so intelligent that we brush off things without even investigating about it!!!
Bear like creatures, I think are what we call Yeti today, and are known to be seen even today in the icy regions of the world. Just because we havent seen it doesnt mean they shouldnt be there.
Before we discovered Dinosaur fossils, people would have laughed if somebody talked about creatures as big as Dino in terms of size or shape! Same thing about Mammoths.
How can we compare ganesha idol drinking milk to Hanuman photo? Of course ganesha idol drinking milk was un-scientific. It was a mass hysteria by people.
There was also another similar mass hysteria last year which I saw in CNN-IBN where the sea water had turned sweet in front of a Durgah in Mumbai and was attributed to the power of Allah! People were drinking it like mad! Even the reporting journalist drank the water!! What a scientific approach?
Later it was found that the sewage(!) water was being mixed with sea nearby and the chemical reactions had removed the Sodium-Chloride content (Salt) from the sea waters. It was not sweet, but only NOT saltish! We have selective amnesia over such things! Because its risky to remember or say certain things in a secular India!
The problem in India today is that in a quest to prove that we are scientific(?), when we see unscientific thoughts today, we simply extrapolate the same to the ancient days and say even those were unscientific.
What proof do you have to say that valmiki used artistic expression to make the story colorful by introducing vanraras? Is there any investigation done on these lines?
Vanara mentioned in Ramayana does not mean MONKEYS. Vanara in sanskrit means two things, vana nara meaning humans living in forests AND va-nara meaning humans with monkey like tails. Monkeys are called in Sanskrit as vana kapi or kapi or markata, NOT as vanara.
We simply watch popular TV serials and conclude them to be monkeys and brush it aside as nonsense. I am not against saying nonsense as nonsense, but the lack of investigative spirit is the actual issue here.
We need an Oppenheimer to tell us that Mahabharatha war was probably a nuclear war! If somebody amongst us tells the same, we simply brush it aside as nonsense!
At Ayodhya excavation is required to be done atleast 60 meters deep in the ground to get any scientifically meaningful results, and our ASI does not go beyond 5-6 meters. And when they say that there is no proof of Ram temple there, we dont realize that it is nonsense and unscientific!
Another examples is about war chariots in Mahabharatha. We dont even think for a while how can a chariot with 5 horses fly in the air, and simply brush it aside saying it is fiction!
We dont even realize that 5 horses for a chariot could well mean a vehicle with 5 horse power engine! People with half baked sanskrit knowledge do translations, and we who dont know sanskrit read these half baked english translations and take it at face value, and then spread the news as this being the true picture!
What we forget is that the science beyond materialism which is the true science, which the modern science is yet to come to terms with, with quantum mech just being the tip of the iceberg, is already mastered in the ancient Indian texts!
I should say that most of the so called educated Indians today are pseudo-scientific. While in the western world, scientists are moving towards ancient Indian science.
How many of Indians/Hindus know that Brahma is the personification of the mortal universe?
The actual problem is that we tend to reduce all these personifications to human like level, and reject them saying Brahma has four heads, Shiva has third eye, etc.. asking how is that possible?
Its possible, provided we have the patience to read the actual texts and try to understand it.
If I say, I believe that telepathy is possible, there are many people who call it nonsense even today, without knowing that science itself accepts it today in the form of quantum non-locality!
Again the same thing about Kalki. There is a difference between Godmen and real Kalki (if he comes). Just because there are thousands of fraud corrupt politicians, can we say that we dont need a true accountable politician?
And again the issue of Godmen is also without clear understanding. Only self proclaimed Godmen are frauds. Vedic culture /Hinduism is the only one of its kind where humans are allowed to be elevated to the position of a God based on their good deeds and thoughts and realization of the supreme. Buddha, Mahaveera, Shirdi Saibaba, Raghavendra are all such humans worshiped as Gods.
So the actual line should be ‘we dont need fraud godmen’.
So saying ‘who needs a kalki’, would be like saying ‘who needs a ram when there are thousands of ravans’!!
It is interesting to read all the comments here.
Talking about monkey and bear like forms; now seriously you must be joking. If there were any such species even after the arrival of man (homo sapiens). There surely must have been some record or proof of it. If we are to accept that there were monkey like and bear like humans then it goes to say that even though man had evolved there were still bear like and monkey like life forms that acted and talked like humans around that were employed in armies to do battle for the humans.
Your inference of a hominid race also raises a very pertinent question. Valmiki mentioned in the Ramayana that the Vanars were from the south. So do you seriously think that the people from the south were Vanars aka Monkeys??? (hope you guys here are not the ones who still believe that all people from the south are madrasis) :-)
The epics are basically to instill in people to be virtuous and follow the righteous path. Valmiki was using artistic expression(or is it artistic freedom) to make the story colourful. We also have the jataka and panchatantra tales which were written basically to keep people in the right path and to make them wise, where you have stories about talking frogs, crows, foxes lions and deer and what not. Dont go around looking for such species.
And coming to the photo of hanuman(forget the cake that takes the whole bakery) …. did you know ganesha idols also drink milk it occured sometime back and millions of people saw it. no wonder the price of milk went up :-)
Shweta, please be careful you sound very gullible. Who needs a Kalki we already have thousands of godmen in our country.
Hi Shweta
Yes, I agree with you completely on this, instead of predicting the possibility of a future war, we need to spend our time and brains in preventing any such unwanted future incidents..
I believe in free will, provided we are able to control our thoughts and with reason…
No I havent written anything about Kalki yet :)
Hi Guru,
Do u have any post regarding “”Kalki Avatar”” on ur blog?
Hi,
I have this same pic in the Pooja Room of my house and its a fact that countless families in North India have it with them in some or the other form. Dnt know abt south and other parts. In fact, it is sold in almost all religious places and even on shops outside Temples in metro cities too. When this incident was very new, this pic was sold at a price of Rs. 10/- or so in schools, colleges and markets etc. I got this from there too. I am really curious to know the truth about this pic. Wud be great if we all get to know it. And abt the future war… why do we all want to know abt it? Lets pray to avoid it if anyways its going to happen. :)
hi,
anyone knows anything about tapashcharya.
I have always only heard and read that in old ages people used to do tapashcharya for years and then lord would become happy by his tapashcharya and grant him some wishes…The question here i have is whether such thing is really there and if yes then whether the person doing tapashcharya wouldn’t do anything else like eating food or relaxing for some time, sleeping or morning courses etc…
just they used to go to forests and start doing tapashcharya for years werent they disturbed by anything any flying bees, snakes or anything else…
I mean how it used to happen…does any one has any information on this….i might be really silly in asking such questions but it has been on mind since childhood….. :(
Also here is the link for the picture of Hanuman in Himalayas
http://www.geocities.com/Eureka/Enterprises/1503/Saikrish31.html
Wokay! Please share it with us when you find it :)
I had seen the photo, but will have to search for it.
Intersting Info Nitin!!
Do you by any chance have a link to that photograph? Just curious to see it, if someone can provide a link.
Yes, it is said that Hanuman is chiranjeevi.. and I have also read that it is said the next Brahma will be Hanuman! Quite eager to study on these subjects in the coming days.
It is said in the Himalayas a very mysterious valley exist where seers and sages lives only the enlightened can see or enter this dimension whether they have humanforms or are formless I do not know. They are there for the benefit/ survival of mankind and will participate in the next great war, when a leader of the world a very evil person who will not be recognized as such, will corrupt mankind, thus a war between good & evil or in reality mankind?s survival as a specie.
Every year around May the festival of vasak/ wasak is held in a valley in the Himalayas, where it is said Buddha comes and gives blessings. Maybe this is the same valley.
Much is written about past wars but is anything written about a future war? Will there be a war as described above?
Namaste !
A couple of years ago, a pic. of Hanuman was in circulation. They say a photographer went into himalayas and ventured inside a cave there he saw an incandescent figure and he picturised it, but he died there. Someone found the camera and published the pic. It is said that hanuman is chiranjeevi (Immortal) what would you say on this
Namastey everyone!
I am enlightened about many things about our glorious past and heritage from this website.
Thanx to all the contributers.
hi priyadarshan,
do you have any references for the yogis in himalyas..i have always only heard of them…has anyone seen them or anything like that…
Thanks
Any of you’ve read Ramayana personally?
Well..Hanuman did not ‘FLY’ from India to Sir Lanka.He ‘LEPT’ according to Valmiki Ramayaan.
(HE DID’NT FLY MOVING HIS LEGS TO AND FRO…AS SHOWN IN THE TV SERIAL)
Those who know a bit about yoga will know…there are 8 siddhis or powers (Asthasiddhis).One of them is control over form..in which a yogi can increase or decrease His form infinitely.Another siddhi..is control over mass..in which the yogi can become lighter than air or heavier than the Earth.Hanuman was a yogi who had both these siddhis (and perhaps more).
Yogis with such siddhis still live in the Himalayas.
:) I am not supporting anything.. just trying to figure out the facts and share them..
as of now the only information I have about his superhuman capabilities is the description of treta yuga in which it is said that people were much powerful than they are today, because they concentrated more on inward true development than on today’s outward materialistic development. Outside is a mere reflection of what is within!
There is a close relation between hanuman growing large and flying..
If you look at the description of the characters of hanuman, he is said to be the son of lord of air i.e vaayu
Next he is also called Mukhyaprana, the main breath of life.. Whenever he wanted to fly, first he did a yogic technique of pranayama of focusing his vital breath and swelling his body, this would make his body lighter in terms of density, thereby enabling him to fly!
These are my current interpretations, might change later as I am able to find/realize more accurate details :)
Now this is one topic that has me interested.. tried searching everywhere but of no use.. suppose we agree about the fact of hanuman as above, but how do u support his shape shifting(he grows large) and flying capabilities?
We all know that everything that exists has hard evidences; Ramayana wasn?t just written on a piece of paper, we know what is Ramsetu, who was Lord Rama and Hanuman. Every single incident [which they call stories now] and every single object [which ASI alleges never existed] can be related and correlated to get a clear flow of instances and a clear picture can be obtained.
Having said that, don?t the people who are challenging the very existence if Hinduism know all this- of course they do.
The real enemies are these anti-nationals & anti-Hindus – least need I say who they are.
There is clearly a conspiracy and dirty vote-bank politics behind this.