Nuclear Wars in Ancient India – Literary Evidence

I recently watched a History Channel Documentary Video which talked about Ancient Nuclear Wars in the Indian Subcontinent – based on the literary evidences in ancient vedic texts and epics like Mahabharatha and the modern findings of archaeological excavations at sites like Mohen Jo Daro.

When Robert Oppenheimer (the Father of the Modern Atomic Bomb) witnessed the detonation of the First Atom Bomb Test at New Mexico July 16, 1945, the following lines from Bhagavadgita flashed through his mind

Now, I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds

After the Manhattan Test, during a visit to a school – when a student asked Oppenheimer about how he felt having witnessed the explosion of the first nuclear bomb on earth, Oppenheimer is said to have replied something on the lines of

First Yes, in recent history though

So were there nuclear weapons and atomic warfare in the ancient history of mankind? Were our ancestors so intelligent that they developed nuclear weapons?

There have been numerous references across the web about passages in Mahabharatha, Ramayana, Vedas etc mentioning weapons of mass destruction (WMDs). But I wanted to cross check the references myself with the authentic original texts. And when I did so, what I found in the original texts was amazing information even when compared to the usual copy-paste mentions found in different websites and forums across the Internet.

Ancient Nuclear Wars

But Before That …

An Opinion on Ancient Intelligence

Many people question “How on earth could people who lived thousands of  years ago have known such an advanced science”.

Does “Ancient” mean “dumb”? What is Advanced Science? Almost all of the major scientific and technological advances of modern society were invented / discovered / created in the last two to five centuries. If in just such a short span of time, we modern humans could create such a level of advanced technology – one can only imagine about the advanced technology a human civilization which spanned for thousands of years in continuum would have created.

Modern Humans (The Intelligent Brain bearing Homo Sapiens) have been on this planet for the past 200,000 years. To say that this intelligent species only discovered science and technology in the past 500 years or so is like saying, babies learn to walk and talk at the age of 80s or 90s.

The vedic civilization spanned from around 10500 BCE (the event mentioning Abhijit (Vega Star) becoming the Pole Star) to around 3000 BCE (Most recent possible dating of Mahabharatha based on astronomical and geological data). Now it is left only to once’s imagination as to how much scientifically and technologically a civilization that spanned across these many millenniums could have achieved! (See a sample Astronomic Dating of Vedic Age)

Why hasn’t all that ancient science and technology been documented then?

Well, we know that the ancient Egyptians built the Pyramids of Egypt. But where is the ancient Egyptian documentation describing the technology they used to build those pyramids? How those massive blocks were lifted and placed so accurately? Does the absence of any such documentation mean the ancient Egyptians did not build it?

OK fine. We at least have the pyramids in place. And since we modern humans did not build these pyramids, and based on the carbon dating and other evidences we can certainly say that the ancient Egyptians build it, even though we are left with no ancient documentation about how they built it.

Cool, so here are the evidences of an Ancient Nuclear War.

Literary Evidences of an Ancient Atomic War

Mahabharatha – Mausala Parva (Book 16)

Mahabharatha – The Longest Epic in the world with around 100,000 verses – is the history of the ancient world centered around ancient India at the end of the Dwapara Yuga – dating back to anywhere around 3500 BCE to 6000 BCE – based on the astronomical dating proofs and the drying up of the mighty vedic river Saraswati which is said to have taken place at the End of the Mahabharatha period.

This large historic documentation has 18 books of which Book 16 – The Mausala Parva is the one which contains numerous references to the nuclear weapons and its after math effects including radiation.

The Book 16 starts with the following lines, and I really wonder how on earth could people have ignored these lines for so long!

36 Years after the great Mahabharata war – strong and dry winds carrying gravels (rock fragments) still blew from every side. The horizon was always covered with some kind of fog in all directions. Blazing pieces of coal fell from sky to earth. The disc of the Sun was always covered with dust.

Now the reason for the occurrences of such drastic changes in nature could be only one of the three mentioned below

  • An asteroid / comet impact
  • A massive volcano
  • The aftermath of a massive nuclear war

Volcanoes are ruled out in this part of the world. And we have no literary evidences of any asteroid or comet impact during that period. However what we have is the literary evidence of a massive war that took place during that period of time – and the adverse effects on nature are described in the texts to be a result of the war itself.

The war itself was so devastating that even though the Pandavas won the war technically, practically everything was destroyed in the war. The entire armies of both sides of the warring factions were wiped out in the war. Duryodhana, the Chief Kaurva – after having lost the war,  on his death bed says

Pandavas may have won the war, but what has been Yudhishtira (the Chief Pandava) left with to rule upon?

Ask any modern day military expert, and he will tell you – there are no real winners in a nuclear war.

Given that

  • Millions of soldiers died in the Mahabharatha war which lasted for just 18 days
  • In depth description in the texts about the nature of the powerful weapons used in the war
  • The detailed description of the adverse impact the war had on nature which was so obvious even 36 years after the war

Hence it becomes quite obvious that Weapons of Mass Destruction (WMDs) were used in the Mahabharatha war.

Mahabharatha – The Destruction of Yadavas

Not only during the Mahabharatha war, but a couple of decades after the Mahabharatha war – when the Yadavas (Vrishnis and Andhakas) fought amongst themselves and destroyed each other – even then it looks like nuclear bombs were used.

The Mausala Parva describes the impact of this battle as follows

Asses were born of kine, and elephants of mules. Cats were born of bitches, and mouse of the mongoose

This is an obvious reference to the widespread genetic mutations that take place in the off-springs of animals in the presence of strong nuclear radiation. This again supports the theory that the war saw the use of nuclear weapons.

Another interesting piece of information in the Mausala Parva is when it says

These weapons, having achieved success, have gone away to the place they came from. They will, again, come into thy hands when the Time for their coming approaches.

This is in relation to a very old project I have been working on, during available free time – Alien Twist to God - expected to be published hopefully in the near future. There are multiple references to Extra Terrestrials like this in many ancient vedic texts.

Mahabharatha – Vana Parva (Book 3)

Here (Chapter 22) Krishna describes the war he fought earlier with the Salwa King who had attacked Krishna’s city Dwaraka. It is said that the Salwa King had a aircraft (Vimana) called Saubha Vimana which the king used for both travel and aerial warfare.

Krishna says that

The sound of this Salwa’s spacecraft was inaudible and this flying car made up of costly metals used to vanish creating illusion!

Clearly an aerial vehicle being “inaudible” shows the level of technology it had, and on top of that it used to disappear quite often. The term used for such aerial vehicles in modern military terminology is Stealth Fighters

Krishna further describes the aircraft as

It was capable of going anywhere at will, bewildering my eyes, reappeared at Pragjyotisha (a nearby city). Then it  suddenly drowned me with a mighty shower of rocks

Angered by the destruction of his city Dwaraka by Salwa’s aircraft, Krishna then decides to destroy it completely and brings out his favorite weapon which he describes as

the weapon of fire, blazing and of celestial origin, of irresistible force, and incapable of being baffled, bursting with energy, capable of penetrating into anything and everything

Celestial origin most probably refers to the principle of nuclear fusion which powers the stars. So most probably it was a thermonuclear device. The impact of the launch of this weapon was that

rising into the sky, it seemed like a second sun of exceeding effulgence – it not only killed Salwa and destroyed his aircraft but it was launched further and destroyed the entire city of Saubha (Salwa’s Capital City) which was located at a place as high as the top of a mountain

Krishna also says that the weapon used was also used earlier in history when the

Gods reduced to ashes the Yakshas, Rakshasas and Danavas

To be Continued. Watch out this page for the next part of this article …

  • Sridhar Kaushik

    It is my belief that ancient rishis were “inner” scientists who in deep meditation found the truth which today’s “outer” scientists are rediscovering by piercing the atom. Quantum physicists are today looking into Consciousness, destiny, free will etc. These are exciting times.
    Science will prove that our ancient rishis were right. In Holy Science, Sri Yukteshwar talks about Sun having a twin. Many stars in the galaxy are known to have twins but our Sun has not been discovered to have one. Not yet in any case!

    • Jeyasimha Viswanathan

      Rishis reside in rishi loka and their life time is very high. The descend from their lokas in previous yugas. Boviously they are very intelligent.

  • Sridhar Kaushik

    “Asses were born of kine, and elephants of mules. Cats were born of bitches, and mouse of the mongoose…
    This is an obvious reference to the widespread genetic mutations that take place in the off-springs of animals in the presence of strong nuclear radiation.”
    Again, genetic mutation does not change the species!
    You can have a genetically mutated elephant giving rise to a deformed elephant but you can’t have an elephant giving birth to a mule and so on.

  • Sridhar Kaushik

    There are a lot of presumptions in this article.
    For example, it says “Millions of soldiers died in the Mahabharatha war which lasted for just 18 days”.
    Where is the proof that millions died?
    Since radioactive metals take thousands of years to disintegrate (long half lives), one wonders if anyone thought of digging the area in and around Kurushetra to see if there is any evidence of radioactivity.

  • Saurabh Tiwari

    man i love this blog, remember my gonna encrypt the rigved and the truth of this world.

  • Chiranjeevi Rao, Pusapati

    Great work. The search for truth and true history of India must go on. I appreciate the effort–Chiranjeevi Rao, Guntur, Andhra Pradesh, India.

  • http://lestaripost.com/ HeruLS

    I just hoping no more war happen. Please, we live in one same planet. Save it.

  • Manish

    Excellent !!! Research ….Good read.

  • nadim

    Has anyone read the book “Chariots of the gods” – i haven’t but heard much about it.

    • Nilesh

      I would suggest you to read “Technology of the Gods” you can get a free ebook, It has so many things regarding technology and science prevalent in Ancient India….”Chariots of the gods” is good but boring…

  • Rulz Vicky

    awesome…

  • Ajay

    great research

  • harry

    At the risk of sounding like a party pooper, I’d like to point out a few things.

    But first, my position: I am proud to be Indian and of Indian descent, and in keeping with that sentiment, I believe in truth and careful examination of facts to arrive at that truth. This has been a common philosophical undercurrent in most philosophical traditions in our culture.

    Thus, in order to uphold that ideal first discussed and followed by our philosophers, I propose that we must not jump to conclusions based on literary evidence without supporting physical evidence and corroborating evidence from other, impartial sources. If a civilization long after ours were to find nothing of our civilization except our repository of science fiction literature and movies, would they be correct in assuming that we had mastered space travel, time travel, hyperdrive technology (if it is at all possible), star trek style beaming technology, space colonies, etc?
    It may be entirely possible that our ancestors had indeed mastered advanced technology, but it is more likely that they did not. Human literature is limited only by our imagination, but reality follows radically different rules.

    Thus, till solid evidence is presented, I will remain skeptical, in keeping with the ancient Indian philosophies of accepting facts as truth only after carefully examining them.

  • Sanjeevs786

    I always look for info. on Vedas, My believe is that Vedas have answer for the questions any human could ask. Your web site is a excellent source of getting the information about Vedas and anything one wants to know, Great work please keep up the great work. As per my understanding with my two cents, “you are not good, you are the best”

  • dipanjan

    albert einstein said that if the 3rd world war will be a nuclear war…….then the 4th world war would be fought with sticks and stones………similarly our ancestors in india faced a nuclear war and in this way lost all their technology….and started fighting with sticks and stones which evolved into sword and archery and then came guns and nuclear weapons……..after we face a nuclear war….our future generations will fight with sticks and stones and then again with guns and nukes….and when they will read our books in which nukes are described they will laugh it away……….this is a cycle always being repeated 

  • AJ

    It was by sheer chance that I chanced upon your website, and I THANK my STARS that I did! Thank you for all the beautiful information, shared. I am still to read more. God Bless You.

  • Anonymous

    The places that they’ve come from is the place where veda (knowledge) resides, in Akasha, in nature, everywhere. So it must mean a forgetfulness of everything for it to be remembered and/or rediscovered again.

    What do you think? :)

  • Anonymous

    Gurudev, I have a slightly different understanding of this passage here:

    “These weapons, having achieved success, have gone away to the place they came from. They will, again, come into thy hands when the Time for their coming approaches.”

    I think it means that the knowledge for such weapons (and pretty much all the advanced knowledge of the ancient vedic civilization) was lost in this war and the time for their second coming is RIGHT NOW, the last century where scientists rediscovered nuclear power.

    I think it just illustrates the cyclical nature of the yugas when all is lost at the end of an aeon for it to rise again in the next.

  • Thevocie Rapstar

    I am 18 yrs old, and have always asked around ,why are we reading mahabhartas and vedas? why aren’t we reading science or history or maths?

    But now I understand why , hinduism is deep very complex , It has ayurveda,Yoga,vedas(Science)and  now nuclear bombsmY just feels like I was sleeping these many yearsall are metaphors all clues are cryin out to us to see through them and find the actual truth

    • Anonymous

      Very true Thevocie. The thing is Mahabharatha is a history, a very ancient history, and vedas contain the knowledge of the ancient times. Not the mere materialistic definition we have for knowledge today, but much more than that. They all try to answer or find answers to the very basic question of “Who am I” or “What am I”.

      If the ancients could invent mathematics as we use even today (the place value system and zero which form the very foundation of modern mathematics was invented in ancient India), then what could stop them from inventing advanced technologies? After all their civilizations spanned for thousands of years where as our modern science is merely couple of centuries old.

  • Umesh raichur

    Great Guru, Please keep up the good work. I feel u could corroborate this article with more references. Thanks!

    • Anonymous

      Thanks Umesh. I have linked to the referenced chapters/verses from within the article itself as I didnt want to make the article look more complicated sounding like some thesis :)

  • Karan Kg Gupta

    hey man i likd it..just tell me wht is ur source???I’d lik 2 kno…

  • Yash P

    Gurudev, may I suggest you to write some article about the knowledge of Physics found in ancient texts. Very little is being talked about (in English) about the information about physical sciences present in ancient texts. And i Suppose this is because of the inherent differences in terminologies used in ancient texts for different modern terms. For example, we do not know what name the ancient texts would have given to the word “Quantum” or “Neutrino” if at all they knew about it. It would be interesting to do analysis on these lines.

  • Anonymous

    He He, first you said that you found in the Internet that Lithuanian imported Sanskrit terms from Latin, and when I showed its not the case, you now say it imported from Persian :)
    But I wont accuse you of cooking up stories. Any person who reads this thread about Lithuanian is free to search over the Internet about the influence of Sanskrit on Lithuanian. The examples I have given earlier are more than enough to find the similarities.

    No language imports proverbs entirely without using the actual words in their languages with the same meaning. Can we take a proverb from an african language into Hindi and start using it with the same meaning in Hindi without bothering about its meaning? When I quoted the similar Lithuanian-Sanskrit proverb, its not as if some single entity – each word in the proverb mean the same in Lithuanian as in Sanskrit. Yet I dont accuse you of being insane or using pseudologic. Because that is not how I debate.

    OK, now that you have asked what is my theory. How many parallel cultures you know of during the times of ancient vedic civilization? That says what my theory is. The entire world was filled with vedic culture in those early days, but with different flavors of it. Search for Vedic influence in Sumerian cultures, Roman culture (Mithraism), Mayan Culture, etc. You will then understand what I mean.

    For the benefit of those who want to know more, I suggest reading the following books

    The Origin of Human Past – http://www.amazon.com/Origin-Human-Past-Children-Immortal/product-reviews/8172761538

    Proof of Vedic Culture’s Global Existence – http://www.amazon.com/Proof-Vedic-Cultures-Global-Existence/dp/1439246483/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1264027662&sr=1-3

    • vina

      again spreading propaganda and lies. the wikipedia article for the lithuanian article itself compares the 3 languages of lithuanian-latin-sankrit. + i also told you lithuanian must have got input from old iranian since it is much older(than latin also!!). and i knew you would cherry pick that word for wolf and some 1 proverb to prove your point. now even i will do cherry picking

      eng   –    tam
      one        onnu
      kill         kol
      mind      manDai

      so i conclude that tamil is the closest non european language to english.

      seriously i pity you man and your pathetic sense of logic.

      ironically you mention all the cultures(which are not vedic) except the pre islam culture of arabia which in fact did follow a corrupted form of hinduism.

      and mayan it seems 

      haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahahaahhoooohohhoo ROFLMAO i think i will stop watching comedy serials and read only your blog.

      ya even in vedic india people were sacrificed from temple tops to appease the gods roflmao

      • Anonymous

        Your problem is you talk like an expert in things which you werent even aware of till I told. First you said Latin, then now you say Persian. Can you provide me any authentic reference of Lithuanian importing Sanskrit words from Persian? Talk to any Lithuanian linguistic expert about your NEW theory.

        You need not pity My sense of logic, for its not something that I cooked up on the fly. For the benefit of others who read this thread, there is a book “The Balts” by Marija Gimbutas (who is a Lithuanian not Indian) which talks about the common ancient culture of Lithuanians and Indians, and here is one of the lines from this book

        “Instead of attributing the similarity between the Lithuanian and Sanskrit to late migrations of people, we think that more than 4,000 years ago the forefathers of the Balts and of the Old Indian peoples lived in the Eurasian steppes”

        As I said earlier in my threads, I never knew about all this information until I was made aware of it by not some Indian, but a Lithuanian friend of mine.

        And it is not just this one book. Ever heard of the book “India in Greece”. It was written as long back as 1852 by E Pococke who was a Greek, NOT Indian – and this book explains in detail WITH PROOF the Indian roots of ancient Greeks.

        And then there is the book “The Arctic Home in the Vedas” by our own Bal Gangadhar Tilak. It is after reading such books did I start blogging on this otherwise little known information, so that others can get easy access to this information, and understand the true history of mankind.

        Inspite of the very little time I get from my science research, I try to reply to every comment made on this blog, and try to have a great patience no matter how much provocating comments the other makes. You are welcome to continue substituting this blog for comedy serials.

        Vedic world doesnt mean only pro-dharmic culture – there were even asuras, danavas, rakshasas etc. Ever heard of Mayasura, the father of Mandodari?

      • Yash P

        There are many like me who consider this blog as a very good source of rare information and articles with good quality and clarity. I take strong exception to you equating it with “comedy serials”. I consider it an insult to the maturity of readers like me. If you disagree with a point argue on that point. If you dislike this blog (apparent from your views) then do not read it. I am surprised that the moderator is continuing to allow your comments. I suggest the moderator to edit comments containing such phrases that are in bad taste and mark them something on the lines of ‘edited by moderator’.

        • vina

          see even i appreciate the effort the guru has taken to organize the material and present it. but when someone starts misinterpreting some points to such mammoth extents what are people like me supposed to do when we put forward some logical explanations and the blogger is still adamant and shakes his head saying nonono even when logical explanations are put forward. even i’m surprised the author has let many of the comments stay on(BTW my comments got gradually harsher due to the nonacceptance of blatant evidence put forward), i thought he would delete them the moment he read them :D

          1) i clearly said that we should be proud if ancient indians did build nuclear bombs and tested them, not if they were used to wipe out cities. anyone will argue that why should anyone be proud of building nukes,i say once nuclear technology is developed, making a nuclear bomb is inevitable(it will always happen).
          2) the blogger then goes on and says 2 nukes were needed to end WW2. i clearly provided proof saying such a statement if factually and historically wrong. ex: US and its allies did not bomb the mega factories making war goods and continued to transfer technologies to its enemies(technology for raising octane number of fuel, technology to convert coal to oil, IBM gave computing power to the german war machine to organize/coordinate her war machine). if such things would have been stopped WW2 would have been much much less bloodier, got over more quickly, let alone would there have been the need to bomb with nukes (again US used nukes to announce itself as the world superpower).
          3)then the blogger  goes on to say that ancient india extended from lithuania to papua new guinea (also surprisingly including the maya empire in mexico, which BTW the name maya maybe just pure coincidence and maybe ancient indians had the technology to explore these areas(who knows) but doesn’t mean it was a part of ancient india). i clearly told him that ancient indian empire mainly extended from the indus river to brahmaputra river to sri lanka in the south. and i defined culturally indian where there is some sort of continuity in the type of agriculture practiced, language spoken, medicine practiced, temples built, classical music practiced, etc, and hence made the point that balochistan(including in iran,pakistan and afghanistan) and afghanistan(including pakhtunwalla in pakistan) are intermediate empires between india and iran and are more closer to iran than india. let alone provinces like kazakstan/lithuania being a part of india.
          4)the author then says that lithuanian is closer to sanskrit than say tamil which is also clearly wrong. forget about only lithuanian, even languages like english/german/polish and even languages like arabic have tons of sanskrit influenced vocabulary and there is nothing to be too much surprised about that coz sanskrit entered into these languages always either through the ancient persian languages or through latin and greek. sanskrit words entered arabic and also a corrupted form of hinduism was practiced in arabia(prior to islam) due to trade and also the ruling of vikramaditya in these regions.

          why did ancient iran accept sanskrit(or atleast corrupted sanskrit)?, i donno maybe because it was superior in structure/form to the existing indigenous languages there(i mean no offence to iran btw :D )??  BTW there are tons of ancient anatolian languages which have no connection to sanskrit whatsoever, but later some/many anatolian languages develop sanskrit like languages and even many of  the kings have indian like names(anatolia is present day turkey) this clearly is cultural diffusion through iran.    thats why ancient persian sounds much closer to sanskrit than say tamil/kannada/telugu(if the author would have said ancient persian is closer than tamil i would have agreed since it is factually true).    why does ancient persian sound closer to sanskrit than the dravidian languages?? because they adopted the sanskrit language(or atleast a corrupted form of sanskrit language) and even indian math/astronomy around say 2nd millenium BC, much later than the establishment of sanskrit language in india, which can be atleast conservatively approximated to around 4th/5th millenium BC. thats why so much of the dravidian vocabulary( which has been derived from a combination of maharashtra prakrit(which was spoken in present day maharashtra and MP)), which is a combination of the indigenous vocabulary of south india and prakrit ,is so rich and yet would be indecipherable to many native sanskrit speakers(even though it is very close to sanskrit). 

          5) the writer then goes on to claim that kan and talugu are very close to sanskrit yet tamil is something totally different. i then gave him ample evidence of the closeness between kan and tam with atleast 30-40% similar vocabulary(which he initially refuted but only accepted after i gave him the evidence. he initially made stupid claims like kannadigas not able to understand suntv news which is such a childish argument).  i also made a personal postulation that telugu is the oldest of the dravidian languages followed by kannada followed by tamil. BTW kannada is not exactly derived from telugu and these 2 essentially developed independent of each other in and around the same time frame. according to me personally going by the phonetic evidence available tamil is derived from kan and telugu both, being much closer to kannada than telugu. tulu is also a very ancient dravidian language but i don’t have much idea about it.

          6)the author then mentioned about sanskritization and literary/archeological evidence of the dravidian languages. i said that the most ancient rulers of present day andhra and karnataka did not promote kan/tel and instead promoted  prakrit. thats why literary evidence comes a bit later for these 2 languages than tamil. i also said that for the initial development of the 4 dravidian languages kan/telugu/tamil and tulu, sanskrit was used as a base and inspiration to form the structure of the language and even some vocabulary was taken from sanskrit.

          resanskritization happened  to all the 4 languages tamil/kannada/telugu/tulu much later where lots of sanskrit vocabulary was inserted to supplement the existing vocabulary of these dravidian languages and also the grammar/structure was also furthur sanskritized. however sanskritized tamil was fully followed only in kerala(malayalam), in tamil nadu manipravaalam(sanskritized tamil) were mainly used only by the brahmins/priests as a liturgical language , whereas old tamil still continued to be used as the common language in tamil nadu. this was not due to some hate or something but mainly just due to convenience.

          6)writer unnecessarily brings up kumaari khanDam. i clearly showed him what is kumaari khandam and also gave him pictorial explanations of kumaari khanDam and the submerged areas of the indian subcontinent along the west coast of india through google earth, because initially he was arguing simply for the sake of arguing.  
          a little background of kumaari khanDam :- many dravidian fanatics claim that kumaari khanDam was a huge sunken continent below kanyakumaari and the present day tamils come from there and have no connection genetically and linguistically with the other people of india. this is clearly BS and i gave pictorial evidence of KumaariKandam which is a very small geographical area and maybe around 2 times the size of say goa atmost.

          7) also south india especially western ghats was frequently visite4d since many of the herbs available in the western ghats maynot be available even in himalayas. hence many sanskrit names are still followed in the western ghats. ex: udakamanDalam(place/region of water). udaka is water in sanskrit. usaka is such an ancient word and is rarely used in mainstream sanskrit, which in itself shows the antiquity of this place

          mahendragiri,agastyagiri, madhura(madurai), rama sethu,,brahmagiri, kaanchipura, vanavaasi(banavaasi in uttar kannada in karnataka, see again the prakrit influence where vanavaasi becomes banavaasi), gokarNa, mahaabaleshwara, neelagiri, udakamanDalam, etc
          these are all places still very much in south india and part of ancient india.

          8)the writer also wasn’t convinced when i said that pak is a puppet of US, he mentions osama hiding in pak when i clearly gave him evidence that osama maybe dead since many years unlike what US claimed that he died recently. atleast he was convinced on this one issue.
          i mentioned that US gave nukes to pak because it isn’t logically possible for them to build both fission and fusion nukes so soon after india tested her nuclear capabilities when guru gave evidence that nukes came actually from china and not from US. im open to this and maybe the nukes did come from china and not US as i had initially thought. but pak is still very much a puppet of the US and still depends a lot on US aid. watch najam sethi’s interviews to get the current pak perspective and some knowledge of indo-pak geopolitics.

          with this long and boring reply i will stop replying here and dirtying this comment section. i made such long comments because i do not want misconceptions to creep into the indian minds about her history and in turn this will make a mockery of the indian culture.
          the blogger can delete any/all of my comments or modify them as he wishes

          thank you

          dharmo rakshati rakshitaha.   

          • Anonymous

            Ok let me clarify once again.

            1. Where did I say, I am proud of building or using nukes. Is stating historic facts and interpretaions the same as being proud of them? And I have also said that not only nukes but even war is bad, and we should learn from past lessons in history.

            2. In WW2 I have shown with proof about Postdam declaration (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potsdam_Declaration) that US used nukes only after Japan did not respond to the allies call to surrender. Why do you only blame the US for nuking Japanese cities? US administration was responsible only for the safety of US citizens. Didnt Japanese administration know about US call to surrender and nuclear threat? Use of nuclear bombs on Japanese cities could have been averted if Japanese rulers had even reciprocated to the call of the allies to surrender. Finally it is the common man of these two Japanese cities who suffered and their safety was the responsibility of Japanese administration, not US administration. Enemies always attack you, its your rulers who should protect you. This is simple political law.

            3. You talked about may be Maya is a co-incidence. May be Lithuanian got sanskrit words from Persian etc. Similarly am I not entitled to my own “may be” views?

            By the way I have shown that these are not merely my own created “may be” views. There have been research books published by eminent historians and researchers on these views

            a) “The Balts” by Marija Gimbutas who is a Lithuanian and the book is about Sanskrit-Lithuanian relationships
            b) “Proof of Vedic Culture’s Global Existence” – by Stephen Knapp
            c) “The Origin of Human Past” – by V Lakshmikantham

            4. Regarding southern Indian languages, the generally held view is that Tamil is oldest, followed by Kannada and then Telugu – and I subscribe to this view. If your claims of Telugu being oldest were true and had sufficient evidence of that, then by definition Telugu would become a classical language and should have been declared so by now. Tamil has already got the classical language status along with Sanskrit, and so is Kannada. I know the politics involved in it, but the “classical language” status of Tamil and Kannada are not without any merit.

            5. Kumari Khandam is not a small area. I have mentioned already khanda is the equivalant of a continental mass, just like Bharatha Khanda. Moreover there is also scientific proof of the said region being a continent back in time. See http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/353277.stm

            6. Pak is NOT a puppet of the US. The very basic knowledge a person knowing Pakistani politics should have is that Pak nukes were Chinese blessings. And I am not joking on this. The moment you say you know about Pakistani politics, you should know very much about the Chinese influence on it, because without China Pakistan is nothing. US uses pakistan only on a “use as needed” basis. China treats Pakistan as an “all weather friend” to counter India.

        • Anonymous

          Thanks Yash for appreciating the blog. However I do not block any comment or commentator unless and until it is spam or the language used is really not in good taste.

          After all vedic culture is a democratic culture, always open for debates.

          Giordano Bruno was burnt alive in the west by the Roman Catholic Church for supporting Pantheism.

          In India Charvaka who denied God and defied Vedas was able to establish his own Charvaka system which promoted atheism, faithless Nastika vaada and materialism, and all this without facing any kind of physical violence.

          It happens only in India :)

  • Yash P

    Is there any archaeological evidence available about the Mahabharatha war? The war was said to have been fought at Kurukshetra and there still is a place with this name in Haryana.

    • vina

      kurukshetra is same as it is. indraprastha is basically present day delhi. hastinapur is near meerut. prayag is present day allahabad. peshawar – purushapura, multan – moolasthana, takshasheela-taxila near present day rawalpindi.

      also saraswathi river used to flow almost exactly on the present day india-pakistan border as we see it today in rajastan and sindh/kutchch.

  • Jayant

    Cool buddy, almost all websites out there when talking about a nuclear war in ancient India contain the same repeated information about some Gurkha flying some projectile. Your article is refreshing and contains new information. When is the next part going to be updated?

    • Yash P

      Does somebody know who or what is Gurkha?

      • Anonymous

        Even I searched for this word in the texts online, but could not find them. Guess will do another search within the texts sometime later and see if I can get any references about the meaning.

    • Anonymous

      Thanks Jayant. Will post it sometime soon :)

  • Padmini

    Excellent Information. Kudos for writing such an informative article. We people know only of the Mahabharatha we see in TV serials and have never read the actual texts or verses. I do not know samskrit, but after having read your articles will try to learn Sanskrit with dedication. It will then help me read and understand the original samskrit texts.

    • Anonymous

      Thanks Padmini. Good to know that you want to learn Sanskrit. It is a language so vast that the more you learn, the more there seems to be learned and understood.

  • I=Indian

    You said, “because it would be the most non violent approach”. I would term this approach suicidal and hence extremely violent. You think US intelligence or administration would have no knowledge of Taliban takeover till they actually takeover? Even after knowing this if they have not acted, then it simply means they are not interested to act against them.

    Looks like you want India to wait even after Taliban takes over Pak – but mark my words – it will be a thousand times bigger blunder than Nehru sleeping in 1962. What makes you think that a bunch of terrorists who dont mind blowing themselves up at every available opportunity will site idle the moment they lay seize on Pak nukes? Thankfully Indian army doesnt think the way you do and they already have a strategy to counter act in such a worst case scenario.

    By saying we should rely on US action in case of a Taliban takeover, now I really wonder whether it is Pak which is the US puppet or is it India? And what if US refuses to act? What are you going to do then? Why not do it in the first place?

  • Anonymous

    Thanks for that video link, now this is a real news for me, because it looks like it came out so naturally!

    • vina

      i also put up the al-jazeera version in case someone doubts the authenticity of the video. 2 things are really puzzling about this video.
      neither did bhutto bat an eyelid when mentioning the name osama bin laden, nor did the anchor bat an eyelid when she said osama bin laden. assuming by mistake someone did say that, the other fellow would immediately say,”whaaaaaat, osama dead????”, but there was nothing of that sort and the interview carried on normally. she was also talking a lot on the attempted assassination attacks on her and also the possibilities of future attack on her  and we all know what happened sometime later

  • Anonymous

    I have clearly told you earlier that comment moderation is on in this site for comments with links and such comments will be approved only after being reviewed. So have patience in case you post comments with links. No comments with healthy content will be screwed up.

  • Anonymous

    One more point to note – We keep hearing everybody (including myself sometimes) saying

    US actually supported one group earlier, then they are attacking them today. US originally funded one group and then acted against the same group. US initially supported this country but today they are supporting this country’s adversary – and so on …

    My question now is – are rest of the world fools to always play into the hands of US? Why did Russia or Germany accept US funds or technology earlier? Did somebody force it down their throat? So if US is guilty of playing tricks, so are other countries in allowing US to play such tricks. And why do they do that? Because it suited their interests then, just like the way it suited for US to do whatever it did.

    Now just because finally US won if people end up saying US funded Nazi or Communism, ti was US conspiracy etc, then the natural question arises that the others who played into this conspiracy either
    a) Willingly did so, because it benefited them then. OR
    b) Were incapable administrators who could not figure out what is good or bad for them OR
    c) Were so weak that they had to bow down to US pressure
    And in either case, they are not justified in complaining about US later just because it didnt work out for them.

    • vina

      hello boss,
      i’ve given you evidence for all these claims. they are definitely not some conspiracy theories. if you are so lazy as to not look at evidences i have pointed out for you, i can’t help your state of mind. i suggest you look at antony suttons videos for a start before reading his books. whatever claims he makes are very strongly backed by evidence. he gives the dates of the various bills of cash/technology transfers between the various organisations/countries in his books. 

      also why do you think the US took in many of the nazi scientists to work for them after the defeat of germany?? weren’t the nazi scientists bad people and enemies of the US? also during the war why didn’t the US bomb many of the prime german factories producing the war goods/weapons/technology?? many of the german factories of big organisations were left unscathed.

      regarding why these countries accepted them, look at germany first. german economy(at the time of the start of nazism) was in shambles. many believed that it was because of the jews, because the jews were in charge of most of the banks and  the kind of banking system is the fractional reserve banking(which is followed by most countries even today although in a much more regulated manner than in the earlier days(again even this claim is debatable)), where there are regular booms and busts and the economy eventually over a longer period of time suffers.

      now i don’t agree with the view that only the jews were responsible for this, but that was the viewpoint of germany at the time of the rise of nazism and that is why hitler became popular. regarding rise of communism in russia, communism is a very attractive philosophy when listened to in brief since it advocates freedom to the peasants (thats why it is popular in the moist areas of india which are mostly tribal and they do not have the proper knowledge of history about this philosophy, and regarding kerala it follows a very very mild form of communism which i called joke communism :D and hence have a healthy economy). but we know what really happens in the end. one organisation(communist government) ends up owning all the resources of the country and the free market system is killed.

      we today know what is the best form of an economy. somewhere between capitalism and socialism or free market system with mega capitalism under control.

      again all these problems start with brainwashing/propaganda.

      so i have provided references for the claims. it is up to you whether you go through them with an open mind or avoid them since they don’t concur with your viewpoints. check up antony sutton(videos on youtube and books), money masters video(videos on youtube and many other sites) just for a start before going through many other sources of information. and don’t use labels like conspiracy theory,etc. many a conspiracy theory actually has backing of claim by evidence, and may a time official viewpoints have claims without evidecne. things are always not black/white, most of the time things are grey

      don’t reply immediately saying these are conspiracy theories and hence have no backing. that’s the easy way out. i can make similar claims about you saying you support nuclear bombings, justify the nuclear bombing on japan on the grounds that it was needed to end WW2, and hence you are a terrorist. it is just a lack of information on your part and i wouldn’t make labels on people just because they are ill informed

      • vina

        note: correction 
        with mega capitalism kept under control, not under control :D

      • Anonymous

        You are not getting the point here. Its not just about money – did US give money to Hitler asking him to start the wars? I know the economy matters behind all the wars and have written about them earlier too. See http://www.hitxp.com/articles/economics/petro-dollar-gold-secret-oil/ and http://www.hitxp.com/articles/economics/promise-pay-bearer-currency-history-federal-bank/

        Tell me one thing, do you mean to say US started world war II?

        You are not getting it when I said “In politics there are no friends or foes”. US welcomes talent from all over the world and that is the sole reason it is the super power today. As long as a scientist is talented and willing to work for US, it doesnt care about his race, ideology etc. Its not about whether I support this or not, its how US works and its the main reason why it has world dominance. US is a country built of migrated talents from across the world including India and Germany is no exception to it. Even Einstein migrated to US.

        If other countries cannot retain their talents, it is their problem not US’, and it is advantage US.

        Regarding Communism, not just Indian CPMs, even the communism of China is a joke. Marx would have sat on fast unto death if he heard Chinese PP members saying they practice communism. By the way, Communism in theory is a good idea as long as it is in the books and is not meant to influence human minds, the moment people take it up as an ideology, it results in the worst form of power centralization and oppression of people.

        As I said earlier, humans are after all animals always wanting to expand their area of dominance, and Communism provides those in a power a good tool to achieve dominance. Most wrongly believe that its only capitalism that has a problem with communism – the fact is democracy has more problems with communism than capitalism.

        Marx says, all private property should be abolished. Come on, human evolution doesnt work that way. The moment you abolish private property, what is the motivation to innovate and invent (other than self satisfaction which again requires things like funding, equipments etc), if every person is going to get his meal and home equally irrespective of how much he works, and cant make huge gains no matter how hard he works, who will bother to work harder? Such a society will become like a jail, where no matter how much you work, what you earn remains fixed.

        I reply immediately based on the things that I know or dont, else it doesnt become My reply, if I search the Internet and look up for supporting facts AFTER I put down my arguments.

        Regarding WW II, the information you are lacking is (and I searched to get the actual term right), read about Potsdam Declaration, where US and allies repeatedly urged Japanese to surrender, and Japan refused it and insisted on continuing to fight. US and allies wanted to end the war quickly without risking more civilian/military loss on their side and hence resorted to nukes.

        Are you aware that prior to using nuclear bombs US had for six months bombed Japanese cities using conventional bombs hoping that the Japanese would surrender? US military even air dropped pamphlets on Japanese cities describing the Postdam Declaration (which was not announced to the Japanese citizens by their own very government), so that the Japanese citizens could force their government to surrender.

        After finding out that the US had made Japanese citizens aware of the Postdam Declaration, the Japanese PM called a press meet saying Japan ignores the declaration and will continue to fight. A couple of days later the two nukes followed and ultimately Japan surrendered on the same conditions it had refused to earlier. If at all they had surrendered a couple of days sooner, probably WW II would not have witnessed nuclear attacks.

        • vina

          Tell me one thing, do you mean to say US started world war II? -  of course yes. well before the war actually started. 
          even i appreciate the US policy of accepting talent from all over the world. that’s why they are no1 in science. but this cannot be used as an excuse to condone their military strategy which is very abhorrent even today.

          yes, i just went through the potsdam declaration and maybe the japanese were against the disarmament of their military forces in immediate effect, or maybe some other factors were at play too. but nuclear retaliation was extreme and can be debated by scholars on the subject as to whether it was required or not. but sweeping statements like nuclear bombs were needed to end WW2 is  %$#$# (*&.      the allies together could have easily taken care of japan although the time taken could have been more.

          again japan also was very strong in not surrendering and giving up. also if the US and its allies would have clearly mentioned that “prompt and utter destruction” ==== nuclear bombs, history could have been different!!

          • vina

            oops japan was very wrong,  not strong sorry for the typo :D

          • vina

            oops japan was very wrong,  not strong sorry for the typo :D

          • Anonymous

            Did US forces order German military to start the war and attack Poland? If German or Japanese rulers are naive enough to play by US tricks then the problem lies with them not with the US. If some person B gives a person A, a million bucks to go and kill others, and if the person B agrees, whose fault is it?

            Every country wants to protect its Interets, and US is only doing what it needs to do to protect its interests. If other countries or people find it wrong, then they should fight it, there is no shortcut to this. US President is elected by American people and he/his government does what he believes to be in the interests of his country.

            Its not as if only US attacks all other countries, and every other country in the world is otherwise a saint. Every country has problems with so many other countries. It is only that they dont have the military or technological dominance as US. Can you imagine how the world would be if Pakistan or China or North Korea had the same might as US?

            The question is not about whether nuclear bombing was right or wrong, it definitely was wrong. But your statement that US bombed Japan to show the world the power of nukes is WRONG. If that was the real intention then they need not have started urging Japan to surrender and air dropping pamphlets, nor was there any need to bomb more than one city.

            You should understand that countries had been fighting for over half a decade and wanted to conclude the war soon – it was a completely unproductive era and each passing day meant lot more destruction and lot more loss of lives and a lot lot more pressure on the economy – fighting lengthy wars as long as this is not a small game.

            To say that the Japanese govt/scientists didnt know what “prompt and utter destruction” meant would be naive because
            1. Everybody knew and were working parallelly to get the nuclear technology right first.
            2. No sane military will publicize what kind of weapon it will use beforehand. The whole art of war is to keep the enemy guessing and take him by surprise.

            • vina

              both A and B were wrong. what interests of the US are you talking about?

      • Anonymous

        You are not getting the point here. Its not just about money – did US give money to Hitler asking him to start the wars? I know the economy matters behind all the wars and have written about them earlier too. See http://www.hitxp.com/articles/economics/petro-dollar-gold-secret-oil/ and http://www.hitxp.com/articles/economics/promise-pay-bearer-currency-history-federal-bank/

        Tell me one thing, do you mean to say US started world war II?

        You are not getting it when I said “In politics there are no friends or foes”. US welcomes talent from all over the world and that is the sole reason it is the super power today. As long as a scientist is talented and willing to work for US, it doesnt care about his race, ideology etc. Its not about whether I support this or not, its how US works and its the main reason why it has world dominance. US is a country built of migrated talents from across the world including India and Germany is no exception to it. Even Einstein migrated to US.

        If other countries cannot retain their talents, it is their problem not US’, and it is advantage US.

        Regarding Communism, not just Indian CPMs, even the communism of China is a joke. Marx would have sat on fast unto death if he heard Chinese PP members saying they practice communism. By the way, Communism in theory is a good idea as long as it is in the books and is not meant to influence human minds, the moment people take it up as an ideology, it results in the worst form of power centralization and oppression of people.

        As I said earlier, humans are after all animals always wanting to expand their area of dominance, and Communism provides those in a power a good tool to achieve dominance. Most wrongly believe that its only capitalism that has a problem with communism – the fact is democracy has more problems with communism than capitalism.

        Marx says, all private property should be abolished. Come on, human evolution doesnt work that way. The moment you abolish private property, what is the motivation to innovate and invent (other than self satisfaction which again requires things like funding, equipments etc), if every person is going to get his meal and home equally irrespective of how much he works, and cant make huge gains no matter how hard he works, who will bother to work harder? Such a society will become like a jail, where no matter how much you work, what you earn remains fixed.

        I reply immediately based on the things that I know or dont, else it doesnt become My reply, if I search the Internet and look up for supporting facts AFTER I put down my arguments.

        Regarding WW II, the information you are lacking is (and I searched to get the actual term right), read about Potsdam Declaration, where US and allies repeatedly urged Japanese to surrender, and Japan refused it and insisted on continuing to fight. US and allies wanted to end the war quickly without risking more civilian/military loss on their side and hence resorted to nukes.

        Are you aware that prior to using nuclear bombs US had for six months bombed Japanese cities using conventional bombs hoping that the Japanese would surrender? US military even air dropped pamphlets on Japanese cities describing the Postdam Declaration (which was not announced to the Japanese citizens by their own very government), so that the Japanese citizens could force their government to surrender.

        After finding out that the US had made Japanese citizens aware of the Postdam Declaration, the Japanese PM called a press meet saying Japan ignores the declaration and will continue to fight. A couple of days later the two nukes followed and ultimately Japan surrendered on the same conditions it had refused to earlier. If at all they had surrendered a couple of days sooner, probably WW II would not have witnessed nuclear attacks.

  • Anonymous

    Well the Chinese atleast built a wall to protect from aggressors, Indians didnt even build that and gave all invaders a free pass :)

    See the article in question is to just prove a point that ancient Indians had nuclear technology and the historic references have been made to drive this point home. Having said that if it is no wrong to have nukes today, it was no wrong to have nukes then. Regarding the using of nukes, in an all out war where it is a you or me question, it is bound to happen. We may try to give any moral ethical judgement on it – but military does not work that way.

    How many countries are there in this world which have never waged a war? When one side shows greed, the other has no option but to respond. If India today is shrinked to this small geography from its original geopolitical boundaries it is because of our stupid approach of talking peace when the enemy knows no meaning of it. Just yesterday Chinese entered Ladakh area and destroyed property, and we claim no knowledge of it – why?

    I said “Humans are by nature animals” in the sense – every animal wants to protect and expand its influence – and no humans have given it up – every person works to maintain and expand his area of influence – every country tries to do it constantly – in the very ancient settlements it was usually physical/military dominance – and in modern days it can be anything and everything from – military to economic to technological dominance – so humans have only broadened the definition of the area of dominance from a mere physical/military one to other areas of influence.

    I know very well about WWII and Pre-WWII history, but my friend – in international politics or politics in general – there are no permanent friends or foes – there are only political interests and gains. Did US ask Hitler to start all the wars attacking every other country? It was the same US which had imposed humiliating conditions on Germany post WW I which finally caused the rise of Hitler. Everybody knows that US initially supported Taliban during the cold war to fight Russians, but when the same Taliban turned against US – the NATO forces are now bombing those whom once they funded. So? This is politics – in the past the US interests were in funding Taliban – and today US interests are in fighting them.

    Not to say that what US did then or today was right or wrong. We cannot have absolute rights or wrongs in such cases. US did what it did in the past or present to protects its interests – which is why it still is the sole superpower. Russia did what it did to protect its interests, Afghans did what they did to protect their interests. Some failed, some succeeded. Some were considered wrong by others, some were considered right.

    You should really watch WWII documentaries and read WW II history books to see what Germans and Japanese were doing – they have killed innocent civilians too and attacked numerous cities worldwide – except that they didnt use nukes bcoz they didnt have them. Why do you think Einstein and numerous other scientists wrote to the US president urging him to fund the invention of atomic bomb before the Germans could arrive at it? Einstein was such a great human being after all, and he very well knew what he was talking about.

    BTW, I guess you missed noticing that I have linked to the original sanskrit texts in the article itself – most of the verses are from first chapter of Mausala Parva and 22nd chapter of Vana Parva of Mahabharatha.

    Finally, every person has the right to talk out his mind and nobody has the right to take it away from him – you can debate and discuss and post counter arguments or point out mistakes on points which you disagree- but cannot say “dont put down your points” :)

    • vina

      you can put down points, provided they are not logically/morally/ethically wrong. such things are less likely to happen today, atleast on the scale at which it happened in WW2(again i could be wrong on this too) since most of the world has become a lot more open thanks to internet et al. also most of the countries nowadays have a large presence of minorities which actually helps negating doing mischief. ex: indian muslims would not like it if india had thoughts of nuking pakistan(forget only muslims most indians i would say) just on the basis of fear of pak nuking india. the real problem would come if taliban captures power in islamabad. what would happen then? we would just have to wait and see unfortunately.
      india has not shrinked significantly to its present small state. india only lost sindh,part of punjab,part of bangla(and now we have lost part of kashmir too). nepal and sri lanka can be considered as sisters of india(or part of a greater india) although sri lanka as the ethnic problems again. places like sikkim,nagaland,andaman,few other NE indian states were never really parts of india but have become now(don’t attack me saying i am anti indian. just stating facts) . also india could not build a wall in the punjab region since there was no real geographical barrier. punjab to pakhtunwalla was a gradual transition(unlike in china where you have the gobi desert few hundred kms close to beijing). however afghanistan did attack india numerous times pre and post islam, the main reason being they were much poorer compared to india

      • I=Indian

        If we waits till Taliban takes over Islamabad, then we wont be there to watch what happens later. This is not how one government is supposed to protect its national boundaries and people. I feel so sorry for all the thousands killed in India so far in terrorist attacks. Are their lives of no value? The number of people killed till today in terrorist attacks all over the country, is it any less than a nuclear attack? Just because it happens in deferred installments are we fine with it? In that sense India has already been nuked by Pakistan, except that there is no radiation.

        BTW I do not understand what is your problem with this article. It is merely stating historical texts and interpretations. Where has the author ever glorified nuclear war or has said that he is proud of ancient nuclear wars or that we should wage nuclear wars today? You are unnecessarily making an issue out of none. Going by your argument any blog post which talks about US bombing Japan using nuclear weapons should be ridiculed about, but that is merely stating a historic fact. When you state a historic fact, there is no judgement involved in it – it has happened and there is nothing you can do about it.

        • vina

          so what are you suggesting nuke karachi tomorrow?? and you got it right, the killing with the nuke maybe temporary, but the damage lasts for a long long time. that is the danger of nuclear weapons.

          the author of this blog regularly glorifies oppenheimer because he quoted from the geetha. now oppenheimer is a historical figure who must be viewed with detachment, not praise or vilification. he had a duty to do(make the bomb) and he did it. if not him someone else maybe many years later would have made the bomb. the author also uses phrases like, “amazing information”, “ancient means not dumb”, etc. and also by the general tone of the writing is of optimism. 
          hence i stated that the author, in articles like this, must show evidence/textual reference, and his/her interpretation of the same and leave it at that. no glorification/vilification required. same is the case if someone if making articles on WW2

          • Anonymous

            Did I ever glorify Oppenheimer for creating the Bomb? And what is wrong if I praise him for quoting Gita? Why should I view him with detachment, I am no saint here. I liked that he being a westerner had read Gita and understood so much about it. Is there any problem in that?

            Yes it is amazing information for me because of the very content in the texts, which was not the history we were taught in our schools. Nobody in our schools told us Mahabharatha war was a nuclear war.

            Did I say, scores of people getting killed in the war was amazing? Amazing was the fact that the ancients knew so much of science, because if they indeed manufactured nuclear weapons, then they should have known a great deal of physics too – and that was amazing information for me. And that is what I meant when I said “ancient means not dumb”. What is wrong in that?

            • vina

              again there are different ways to interpret the use of your word “amazing”. that itself can make a good debate topic XD

              • Anonymous

                language is not absolute, your way need not be everybody’s way of interpreting phrases.

          • I=Indian

            No No, wait till they bomb us. Not necessarily nuke, but another terror attack when we go to some market or to watch a movie or in some train. Light a candle or two for the dead. Get all news channels filled with, “brave city fights back the very next day”, as if people have an option to skip work and stay back at home, listen to PM condemning the attack and asking us to be more vigilant (not to go to movies or travel in trains), listen to HM again blaming Pakistan, cry in front of US to do something. Be scared to go out near crowded places, die everyday instead of dying once.

            • vina

              ok, let us make a common petition, or even better a hunger strike and lets send a common letter to the PM saying that either lahore/karachi/islamabad needs to be nuked atleast in the coming month else we will all go on a hunger strike.  

              • I=Indian

                You seem to be more concerned about the people of Karachi than about the people of India.

      • Anonymous

        Who decides what is moral and ethical and logical? Do we have any absolute scales of references for this?

        Based on which ancient geography of India do you decide whether India has shrinked in size or not? During the Mahabharatha period, the Kandhahar in Present Afghanistan was ruled by Shakuni. During the period of King Vikramaditya, modern Iran was a part of his kingdom. During the period of Rama, his brother and sons ruled over geographies which are currently part of erstwhile Soviet republic. From where did Hindukush mountains get their name?

        If today a few more countries are carved out of northern Indian states, then two-three centuries from now you will have people claiming that they were never really part of India and were actually ruled by Mughals in the past, and so India’s boundaries have never shrinked.

        What does Meghalaya mean? It is a sanskrit term for land of clouds. What does Nagaland mean? Naga is a Sanskrit team again and Nagas are mentioned everywhere in the ancient texts. Read the story of Parikshit. What does Arunachal mean? It is a Sanskrit term again. People of Sikkim voted to become a part of India.

        Not just Andaman and Nicobar, but even large parts of Srilanka, Malaysia, Indonesia, Malay Islands were all parts of the ancient Chola Empire. The Persian traveler Buzurg ibn Shahriyar of 10th century talks about Andaman in his book Wonders of India.

        The very term Andaman is derived from the Malay word for Hanuman – Handuman. See for Reference “Imperail Gazetteer of India” http://books.google.com/?id=TgC2AAAAIAAJ

        Read the history of Afghan Hindus and Buddhists who were in ancient times a part of the Indian empires. Where do you think those huge Bamiyan Buddha statues came from? Indian Geography has definitely shrinked a lot in the past one to one and a half millenium.

        • vina

          agreed afghanistan was a “fluctuating(meaning sometimes in india and sometimes not)” part of the indian subcontinent, but they were also the biggest trouble makers from time immemorial and have made many attacks in heartland india pre and post islam. 

          see this is where you get things wrong. europe belongs to the christian culture(ok many of them maybe athiests, etc now), so can one conclude that europe belongs to syria,lebanon,palestine,egypt,turkey??? since christianity originated from the fertile cresent.

          any country will have proper indigenous names for the places that surrounded it. 

          the actual name of persia is from sanskrit(paarshva) or something that is proximate(to india). does that mean iran is a part of india lol. if you say to some iranian that they belong to india they will laugh, they look more like europeans than indians.

          yes vikramaditya ruled parts of persia and arabia(don’t exactly know which parts), doesn’t make them part of india. similarly the cholas temporarily ruled parts of indonesia/malaysia. doesn’t mean they belonged to india. by this logic we are all part of great britain ROFL

          nagas maybe called so in indian literature because maybe the place is filled with snakes(i don’t know just guessing). sikkim is culturally more close to bhutan than india. similarly gorkhaland(darjeeling) is more close in culture to nepal than india. + prior to independence many of the NE states had a flourishing trade with burma. however i feel those states are better off with india than tyrannical burma. but historically i’m not so sure as to whether they were culturally indian or no?

          assam, tripura and manipur are definitely a part of historical india. mizoram and nagaland i’m not so sure(probably more close to burma culturally than india). 

          arunachal pradesh again maybe some parts bordering assam are culturally indian.

          again you may ask what does culturally indian mean???  it consists of many things which im bored to type.

          andaman should have been left alone from civilization and shouldn’t have belonged to any country and indeed the indian government is doing a good job by making many areas as no pass zone exclusively for the tribals.

          historically india was defined till the sindhu river(indus) and brahmaputra river hence present day punjab, sindh, and bangladesh belonged to india. sri lanka and nepal are sisters of india.

          • Anonymous

            Exactly, how do you define cultural unity? Where was Christianity before Christ? who were the ancient Romans? See http://www.hitxp.com/articles/history/christmas-history-christ-birth-date/

            The culture of many parts in southern India itself is so diverse – the Telangana region, the Coastal Karnataka, the Core Tamilian region – all have their own unique cultures – so can we say they should have been different countries or not part of India? Even within the states I can show you cultural differences that you normally find between two countries. The very essence of India is its cultural diversity, so culture alone cannot be used as a differentiator here.

            If culturally means – completely coherent and exactly same culture – then modern India itself has thousands of such cultures in it. By this definition what culture do Han Chinese share with Tibet or Inner Mongolia or Uighur regions? What have scottish people in common with England? So you cant have a clear cut cultural boundary. Anybody can define it the way it suits them :)

            The historic definition of India you refer to is the one by recent Europeans. For me ancient India refers to any region which has been a part of Vedic civilization or which have been part of Indian Empires till they came under the influence of any Abrahamic religions.

            • vina

              please don’t again put that recent european thingy argument agian. i’m talking about ancient india and it was defined atleast approximately as the land between the himalayas, sindhuj, brahmaputra and kanyakumari.

              han chinese do not have the same culture as tibet, uighur turks, inner mongolia mongols. hence there is always tension in these regions. uighur turks are culturally closer to kyrgyzthan, kazakstan,uzbekistan than china. similarly mongols of china are closer to mongols of mongolia. tibetians are a separate group.

              cultural boundaries are not everytime clearcut but geographical boundaries/climatic regions play the most important role. europe could have been one country if they weren’t so divisive/fanatic in their ideology. the serbic, slavic languages, culture, agriculture is very similar hence almost all of eastern europe could have formed one country. western europe and southern europe could easily form a country since they are of the same race and all their languages are built on the base of latin/greek.

              telengana, coastal karnataka, tamilian region all of them follow the cow/buffalo based agriculture, all of them atleast before the british used to follow ayurveda as the system of healing and they speak languages all of which are based on the base of sanskrit. yes even tamil is based on the base of sanskrit, it is just that over many thousands of years the words got corrupted and many words would not be recognizable to a sanskrit speaker. of course in addition to this base language(sanskrit) languages like tamil, kannada, telugu have their own rich vocabulary of local words (not of sanskrit origin), but the base is still very clearly sanskrit. even singhala is a sanskrit based language, follows cow based agriculture, follows ayurveda, and follows a dharmic religion(buddhism). hence sri lanka is also culturally very similar to south india.

              by a cow based economy/agriculture i mean where the cow/buffalo products/labour are extensively used in the agriculture/medicine like manure, urine,labour,etc. and also most of the indiginous indian crops that are say grown in UP can be grown in tamil nadu also. 

              samarakhand(meaning a place of war) is a sanskrit word. all the sthaans of central asia are sankrit suffixes. do they also become a part of the indian empire??

              afghanistan follows a sheep based agriculture(very similar to iran, balochistan). turkic states and mongolia follow a horse based agriculture. india neither follows sheep based agriculture nor horse based agriculture.

              afghanistan speaks either persian or persian derived languages. turkic states including uighur province in china speak turkic based languages and even mongolian is somewhat similar to the turkic languages(although turkey also speaks a turkic language culturally it is more closer to greece/europe than the turkic states)

              this is what i mean by culturally indian. the wildlife is similar, method of agriculture is similar, languages are similar. even racially a person from UP is very similar to a person from lanka or tamil nadu. just that the south indian is a little darker due to the sun but for a foreigner the skin colour variation would be indistinguishable. from north to south temples are built which have similar principles of vastu and propitiate some vedic deity or some dharmic deity. 

              even though indonesia/malaysia follows a similar culture(even though they are muslim now) and many still keep indian names and their airlines is called garuda indonesia it does not become a part of india. if europe starts following hinduism tomorrow they do not become indians. getting the point?? 

              going by your logic since the british ruled us and we are able to converse in english means we must be a part of the queen’s empire.

              many of the native english names are derived from hebrew. do they become a part of israel??

              your logic amounts to basically rubbish

              • Anonymous

                Ancient India defined in which text? Have you heard about Jambu dvipe, Bharata Varshe, Bharatha Khande – the ancient chants recited even today during every auspicious event? Here Bharatha Varsha refers to the entire span of Indian empires in ancient times and Bharatha Khanda refers to the Indian Sub Continent.

                Bharatha Varsha spanned from modern Iran in west to modern Vietnam in east, from Kazhakstan in the north to Antarctica in the South. The land mass below the sub continent was then above sea level and was referred to as Kumari Khandam, the place which is submerged in the oceans below Kanyakumari today. Vietnam is referred to as Champa in Mahabharatha. Till early 19th century the Indian cultural kingdom of Champa ruled a large part of Vietnam, so all your cultural definition applies to Vietnam as well.

                The entire Indonesian culture was Indian culture and is even today to a large extent even though they have embraced Islam as their religion. See the various Ramayana and Mahabharatha plays regularly played in their own versions of these epics even today. Is this not the same Indian culture? 

                Sheep, Cow all depend on local geography and climate. I can show you a lot of sheep based cultures inside India itself. Ever heard of Kuruba clan? Racially there are many Indian races which are directly from Africa, does that make them any less Indian then? One of the largest Hindu temples are in Cambodia and are built according to the same vaastu and has the same hindu deities. Why on earth will a region give it a name from a particular language if it is not following the culture associated with that language?

                Europe following Hinduism TOMORROW is different from the places mentioned above having Hindu Indian culture YESTERDAY. Got the point? 

                British did not rule us in 4000 BCE, I was talking about how Indian geography has shrinked throughout history and British rule is a part of that history shrinking Indian geography even further. Indians have not given up all their languages and embraced English nor have all Indians got converted to the Queen’s culture.

                Mere deriving of names from one language is totally different from building temples (Cambodia, Vietnam), accepting epic tales in one’s culture (Ramayana, Mahabharatha in Indonesia, Thailand etc).

                • vina

                  bharat varsha from kazakshtan to vietnam to iran. unless you give proper sourcing to such claims no one is ever going to believe you.

                  guruve i already told you the difference between religion, culture, race, etc. if someone embraces christianity he does not become a syrian. according to you are the syrian mallu christians indian or syrians?? it is just that the religion came from syria. don’t use the example of buddhism or hinduism prevelant in SE asia or indonesia/malaysia to conclude them being a part of india, else i will go mental after hearing these argument again and again :D . by the same argument indonesia belongs to saudi arabia now since they have embraced islam. ROFLMAO

                  do you know the difference between sheep and goat. if not look up in wikipedia. kurubas are an ancient indian race and they rear goat. goat rearing along with cow/buffalo rearing is the most common cultural trait of india. ayurveda is filled with medicines made from cow’s milk, goat’s milk and buffalo milk. ayurveda talks about in great lengths about the advantages and comparisons of goat’s milk, cow’s milk and buffalo’s milk. some ayurvedic medicines even include bile of cow, meat of goat, and the kasturi from kasturimrigam(musk deer). ever heard of ajaashwagandhaadi lehya?? it contains goat meat. hence goat rearing is very very much a part of indian culture along with cow rearing and buffalo rearing. not so much sheep.

                  wild goat(varayaadu, nilgiri tahr) exists near anai mudi near munnar, kerala, which is the ancestor or cousin(whatever you may like to call it) of the domesticated indian goat.

                  again im waiting for the sourcing of this claim that india spanned from iran to indonesia to kazakstan ROFLMAO. kazakstanis are turkic mongoloids, iranians are caucasian caucasoids(like europeans) and SE asian/indonesians are SE asian mongoloids.
                  indians are indian caucasoid(not caucasians. big difference, and hence a kind of a separate race by itself) with a little bit of autraloid/negrito genes highly present in the tribal populations of india but not so much in the non tribal populations of india.

                   and i have told before indians gave specific names and described in detail the tribes that surrounded india just like and ancient country does. does not mean they become a part of that country.

                • vina

                  champa could just be an indianized kingdom like the rest in SE asia, indonesia, malaysia. according to wiki they started rule in 192 AD. champa of mahabharatha could refer to an indiginous kingdom. you would have to provide better referring than just a name, convincing the people here that they were indeed the people of present day cambodia. 

                  numerous churches and mosques are built in india. do we automatically become a part of syria or saudi arabia???

                  kumaari khanDam is still present even today. open google earth to see it. it extends i would say approximately some 80 kms till below kanyakumaari.

                  google earth shows the option of elevation, so one can easily see and interpret things. below the actual tip of india there is a sharp dip in elevation from -200m to -2000m. more loss to the indian landmass compared to kumaari khanDam is the west coast where a large lart of shallow landmass is submerged. almost triple the breadth of the west coast that exists today is seeable on google earth with elevations of around -50m

                   

                  • vina

                    and also in case you didn’t know, most of bangladesh that exists as it is today did not exist many thousands of years back. most of the bangladesh that we see today is built up from the enormous amount of silt/clay/mud brought down by the mighty brahmaputra/ganga rivers

                    • Anonymous

                      So what? What is the point you are trying to make?

                    • vina

                      im not trying to make any point. facts need not have points!!!!!!!!!!

                  • Anonymous

                    How is Indianized DIFFERENT from Indian Culture when the people of the region also embrace that culture? If people of a region still read out the ancient Indian epics, stories from Hindu books – you call it mere name referring?

                    Again you refer to mosques and churches in India which are a recent phenomenon – can it even be compared to similarity of ancient languages like Lithuanian and Sanskrit, or the building of ancient Hindu temples in Cambodia/Vietnam or the influence of Indian epics on the cultures of Indonesia/Thailand etc? There may be churches in India, but how many places you see people playing plays from Biblical times? or how many Indian languages have loan words from Hebrew?

                    If you didnt understand about Kumari Khandam – go back to the era of Ramayana and Mahabharatha – the land mass stretched upto Lanka then, sea level was much lower, people used to cross over by foot to Srilanka – that Kumari Kandham I am talking about.

                    Even today there is a city called Dwaraka in Gujarat – but the real Dwaraka of Krishna’s era is submerged inside the deep seas away from the current land mass. So what difference does it make? Does it negate the facts in any way?

                    • vina

                      again this lithuanian thing again. i say no more. you are victorious. i accept defeat.

                       do you know that many of the kerala muslims and coastal karnataka muslims are not even full indian racially. many of them are the offspring of arab traders with indians. and they follow islam and build mosques aesthetically similar to the ones in arabia. so will you call them indians or arabs??    just because SE asia embraced buddhism and hinduism does not make them indians. i told you very clearly don’t use the religion argument but by the logic of your arguments europe belongs to syria and the other levantian countries since they are culturally christians. 
                      if these SE asian nations actually come out and openly say we are a part of india/want to be a part of india then the story is different. but such things will happen only in your own dream world.again ignorance is bliss. do you even read what is written or just go on blabbering??? will you get arrested by the police for opening google earth to see the shape of kumari khanDam and the shape of the shallow waters outside the west coast????i will give you a more detailed advice since you don’t seem to comprehend things properly1) search for installation files of google earth on the internet2)install google earth3)once you have intalled google earth goto tools-options, 3D view-show elevation(metres)4) once this is done if you move your mouse around on the google earth display you get to see the elevation of the land mass over which your pouse pointer is placed. for example (-2000m, -300m, 300m, etc). the elevation data is shown at the bottom  centre of the google earth display5)now comes the most important part so listen very carefully as this is the most important part zoom in at/below kanyakumari using the mouse roller wheel. move your mouse cursor around the waters below kanyakumari to see the elevation of the submerged landmass or in other words the land below the sea. you can see that the elevation is very,very shallow and is around -50 metres and even the actual tip of the indian peninsula can be observed. 6) the rama sethu area also is very very shallow and has elevations of 0 to -5/10m !!!!!!!!!!!7) the actual west coast of india is much much broader than the existing west coast of india which literally hugs the western ghats.8) i will give you pictoral evidences for the same as these are not mere stories now please don’t say again that i don’t know about kumaari khanDam else it will look like i am arguing with a self centered fanatic.thank you

                    • vina

                      kumaari khanDam is a small region as i said earlier below kanyakumaari. if you can’t read and interpret what i have written then it is your fault. when did i say dwarka doesn’t exist??? are you making up my own statements just like you make up your own???
                       the images will prove what im trying to say. you can believe whatever you want

                    • vina

                      [img]http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/31/42870412.png/[/img]

                      [img]http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/163/89080453.png/[/img]

                      [img]http://imageshack.us/f/9/47043379.png/[/img]

                      1st pic shows kumaari khanDam, 2nd pic shows lanka-india land bridge
                      3rd pic shows the outline of the landmass of india including the part submerged under the sea. as one can see that the landmass submerged under the sea is much more along the west coast than near the kumaari khandam area. landmass is very shallow for many many kms especially outside the cost of maharashtra and the gujarat/gulf of khambat.

                      happy?

                    • Anonymous

                      kumaari khanDam is a small region? And Google Maps prove what?Do you even understand what Khanda means? It is a continental mass. Bharatha Khanda – the Indian Subcontinent. Similarly Kumari Khanda refers to the ancient continental mass that existed to the south of Indian Subcontinent.See the image of Kumari Khandam http://www.sepiamutiny.com/sep…Is this what Google map shows? Kumari Khandam extended from Kanyakumari to Madagascar to Australia, and this is not some mere hypothesis. Scientists believe that an asteroid impact on this region caused massive tsunami submerging the land. Sedimentary deposits (called chevrons) found along the south eastern coast of Madagskar are said to be the same as the ones found below Kanyakumari. This also solves the puzzle of lemurs being found only in India and Madagascar (because the land mass was joined when Kumari Khandam was above sea level).

                    • Anonymous

                      We know what kerala or coastal karnataka muslims were before they embraced Islam. Do you know what Indonesians or Vietnamese were before they embraced Hindu culture? Do you know when they actually did embrace Hindu culture?

                      I can give you references to these places in ancient Indian texts. I am not talking about conversions to buddhism a couple of centuries back. I am talking about the cutlure of these places during the times of Mahabharatha, Ramayana, and Pre-Ramayana period.

                      Read these books:

                      http://www.amazon.com/Proof-Vedic-Cultures-Global-Existence/dp/1439246483/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1264027662&sr=1-3

                      http://www.amazon.com/Origin-Human-Past-Children-Immortal/product-reviews/8172761538

                  • I=Indian

                    ROFL How convenient to say champa “COULD BE”, “COULD REFER”, Naga “COULD BE”, and so on. As if by magic all over the world ancient Sanskrit terms, stories, temples are spread. But we dont see any ancient Vietnam or ancient Indonesian influence or terms in India. But still one wants us to believe that its all disconnected, co-incidence, just borrowing of some terms.

                    • vina

                      boss, 
                      they did not spread by magic. even vatican is derived from sanskrit “vaatika”. so will you say vatican belongs to india. (again i’ve told before this occurence of sanskrit word base occurred because of language and knowledge diffusion from iran to greece,i.e in the iranian languages, greek, latin and eventually throught europe. india has english as a common language. do we still belong to the queen’s empire?

                      persia(paarshva) is also a sanskrit word. is iran(aiyryavrata, aiyryan) also a part of india, just because they happened to call themselves aryans?? if we call ourselves white will we become white tomorrow? rofl

                      sanskrit language spread to SE asia and indonesia/malaysia through religion. just becasue they accepted our religions of buddhism/hinduism doesn’t mean they automatically become indians. by that logic whoever is christian is a syrian and whoever is muslim is a saudi.

                      also even though china got under the buddhist influence their language was not tampered with much because they already had a well developed language. maybe SE asia and indonesia/malaysia did not have well developed or atleast well structured languages when hinduism hit them??(again this is my personal view). maybe sanskrit influence in much much more in these countries than china(which also came under the influence of buddhism)

                    • Anonymous

                      Why the languages flowed in one direction? Why not in the other?

                      The following books are for the reference of others who read this thread

                      http://www.amazon.com/Proof-Vedic-Cultures-Global-Existence/dp/1439246483/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1264027662&sr=1-3

                      http://www.amazon.com/Origin-Human-Past-Children-Immortal/product-reviews/8172761538

        • vina

          regarding afghanistan. afghanistan presently speaks persian(dari). is it an indian language or a persian language?  even pashtun and baloch are built on the base of persian. only punjabi, sindhi and urdu are built on the base of sanskrit,  prakrit. albeit now they are flooded with vocabulary from arabic, persian, and a little turkish, bangla is completely based on sanskrit. hence my claim that sindh,punjab,bangla,kashmir belong to ancient india while not afghanistan. even nepali and singhala is completely based on sanskrit/pali/prakrit. hence afghan culture is much more iranian than indian. this also will explain a bit about the culturally indian thing i wrote in the other post

          • vina

            also the many kashmiri language are also based on sanskrit

            • Anonymous

              The oldest book on History of Kashmir was written in Sanskrit – Rajatarangini by Kalhana

          • Anonymous

            :) Then what about Lithuanian being flooded with Sanskrit? Ancient Tamil is not a derivative of Sanskrit either!

            By the way where did you read that Persian is not related to Sanskrit?
            The Old Persian is so closely related to Sanskrit that the terms for father, mother, brother, name, etc are all the same in both the languages.

            The modern language of Iran, Farsi has come from Pahalvi (an Indian language) which in turn came from this old Persian. The Persian of Zend Avesta also is derived from the same Old Persian language.

            • vina

              gimme examples of lithuanian being flooded with sanskrit?? or is it another one of your baseless allegations?? even if lithuanian contains some sanskrit derived words it is usually via the usual route of sanskrit–persian–latin/greek and then to the many european languages. where is lithuania and where is india?? they are on opposite corners of the euraisan landmass. have you blown your fuse or something?? 

              yes i know that persian(in fact old perisan(avestan) can be called a prakrit since it is so similar to sanskrit), latin and greek and very highly inspired from sanskrit. and pahlavi is an iranian language not an indian language. next you’ll start telling iran is a part of india. if some iranian sees you saying things like that he will shout at you ROFLMAO. iranians are probably more closer to greeks,levantian, mesopotamian populations than indians. 

              also tamil is not necessarily the oldest dravidian language. all the 4 dravidian languages kannada, telugu, tamil, tulu are equally antique. in fact one could argue that telugu could be the most ancient dravidian language since it was spoken extensively in present day maharashtra/MP/telangana/coastal andhra.

               it is just that kannada, telugu, tulu underwent extensive sanskritisation whereas tamil didn’t. but all 4 languages are equally antique and always used sanskrit as a base/inspiration to develop the language. in sanskrit alphabetical system each row has 5 letters, it is just that in tamil this is truncated to 2. manipravaalam(tamil used for liturgical texts) and tulu used the full 5 letters a row as is used by other languages. all the 3 scripts of tamil, malayalam and tulu are derived from the grantha script.(the tamil one is the truncated version though)

              the reason why tamil has more antique literature is because if was propagated by the cholas/pandyas/cheras. the satavahans from the same period propagated prakrit and did not propagate telugu/kannada much. this is the reason why kannada/telugu literature appears a little later.

              also almost 30-40% of the vocabulary is same/similar between tamil and kannada(very few people know about this). what will you say next that kannada is also not an indian language. i can give you extensive examples of tamil – kannada similarity in vocabulary.

              i can give you a few possible examples(some could be wrong though)
              eka(sanskrit)-oka(telugu)-ondu(kannada)-ondru(tamil)
              tolkaappiyam, kaappiyam is kaavya of sanskrit
              cilappadikaaram- adhikaara is again from sanskrit

              the list is enormous, just that it would take a lot of time to compile such things. the only requirement for this is one must know sanskrit,telugu,tamil,kannada to figure out connections and other stuff. just knowing sanskrit and tamil removes many of the missing links(which can be found in telugu and kannada)

              of course im not saying that these 4 languages are completely based on sanskrit. there is a very rich dravidian vocabulary present in all the 4 languages but the inspiration/base for building these 4 languages has always been sanskrit.

              your stupid logic of iranians satrting to speak a corrupted version of sanskrit amounting to them becoming indians is similar to indians having learnt english becoming people of the queen of england.

              lithuanian is an indian language but tamil is not????

              OK im done here. goodbye

              • Anonymous

                Ask any Lithuanian if you know one. I got the information not from some Indian, but from a Lithuanian friend of mine. There is no need for me to keep giving you proof for each of your ignorance, I have already given many, if you dont want to believe that is your problem, not mine. I am not here to enlighten those who are not interested in.

                Still, I am elaborating further for the sake of others who might be reading this

                Lithuanian is the closest among all European languages to the Sanskrit – French Linguist Antoine Meillet.

                Read one or two lines about Sanskrit relationship of Lithuanian in this Baltic Travel EU website, its not some Hindu website. http://www.thebaltictravel.eu/lithuania/why_lithuania

                Take any Sanskrit – Lithuanian language translator on the web and you will know what it means. Deva, asi, asti, asmi, ashwin – sounds Sanskrit? Well they are lithuanian too, and with the same meanings.

                So who has blown out his fuse?

                For your information, I know Kannada, Telugu and Tamil FLUENTLY – Kannada is more closer to Telugu – because both are heavily sanskritised – but Tamil is not to that extent. Just ask any Kannadiga who doesn’t know Tamil to watch Tamil news in Sun TV, and then ask him whether he understood 30-40% of it! Even Kannada and Telugu are not 30-40% similar. Else a person who knows one language should be easily able to understand almost half of what the other person talks in the other language.

                • vina

                  don’t make stupid statements. even i don’t know telugu and can’t even understand 10% of the dialogues in a telugu movie, doesn’t mean telugu and kannada have nothing in common. south karnataka people cannot properly understand north karnataka accent, doesn’t mean they are conversing in a different language.

                  don’t make baseless allegations against me saying that i am close minded, etc. i have given ample evidence, for whatever claim i have made. even i can resort to name calling and call you stupid names.

                  thanks for wasting a lot more of my time. here comes a short list of things i can think of. of course the list is much much much longer. i think it is very important to quench the kind of fake propaganda people like you spread. lithuania is more indian than tamil nadu it seems.

                  kannada   –    tamil             –      english
                  baDagu         vaDakku              north
                  tenkaNa        teRku                  south
                  kai                kai                      hand
                  kaalu            kaal                     leg
                  moogu          mookku               nose
                  naalage/naalige  naakku            tongue
                  hallu              pal                     teeth
                  jollu              ecchil                  saliva
                  kaNNu          kaN                     eye
                  koodalu         koNDai                hair
                  muguLunage  punnagai             smile
                  kattu             kazhuttu              neck
                  koraLu          kural                    throat in kan, voice in tam
                  togalu           tOl                       skin
                  kobbu           kozhuppu             fatten,fat
                  ura               uRai                     chest
                  moNakke      muzhangai            elbow
                  maNikaTTu   maNikaTTu           wrist
                  bevaru          viyarva                  sweat
                  beraLu          viral                     finger
                  ODu             ODu                    run
                  nadige          nada                   walk
                  hoosu           kusu                   to fart
                  aLLaaDu       aaTTu                 shake
                  kuruDu         kuruDu               blind
                  kivuDa          sevuDu               deaf
                  kuDi             kuDi                   drink
                  tale              talai                    head
                  mooti           moonji                 face
                  madichu       madi                   fold
                  aaNi             aaNi                   a nail
                  hattisu/anTisu  oTTu                stick
                  huli               puli                    tiger
                  hasu             pasu                  cow
                  emme           erumai               buffalo
                  mosaLe        mudalai              crocodile
                  naayee         naay                  dog
                  iruve             eRumbu             ant
                  aane            yaanai                elephant
                  katte           kazhudai             donkey
                  kudure         kudirai                horse
                  JEnu           thEn                   honey
                  tirugu          tiruppu                turn
                  toDagisu     toDangu              start
                  mugisu       muDi                   end
                  kaDe          kaDaisi                flank/finish/final
                  ErpaaDu     ErpaaDu              organize
                  maLe         mazhai                 rain
                  kELisu       kEL                      hear
                  thanniiru     ;;                         cold water(basically kannada word imported into tamil)
                                   mookku chelli       mucous(again kannada word imported into tamil)
                  iDu            iDu                       to place
                  nillu           nil                        stand
                  haalu         paalu                    milk
                  Eru            Eru                      climb
                  eDa           eDatu                   left
                  bala           valatu                   right
                  nillu           niRutu/nillu            stop
                  noolu         nool                      thread
                  kOti          kurangu                 monkey
                  karaDi       karaDi                   bear
                  kOLi         kOzhi                    chicken
                  haaru        paRa                     fly(to fly away)
                  nari           nari                       jackal
                  kappu        karuppu                black
                  biLi            veLLai                  white
                  hOraaTa     pOraadu               protest
                  arasu         arasu                   monarch/government
                  echcharike  echcharikai          alertness
                  taLLu          taLLu                  push
                  eLe             iZhu                    pull
                  tande          tandai                  father
                  taayi           taayi                    mother
                  appa           appa                    father
                  amma         amma                  mother
                  chikkappa   chittappa              uncle
                  atte            attai                     aunty
                  tange          tangai                  sister(younger)
                  akka           akka                    sister(elder)
                  aNNa          aNNa                   brother(elber)
                  tamma        tambi                   brother(younger)
                  haaDu         paaDu/paaTTu      sing/song
                  yOchisu      yOsi                     think
                  nenesu        ninai                    think/remember
                  haNa           paNam                 money
                  kUgu           kUccal/kattu         shout
                  meduLu/miduLu    manDai        brain
                  elubu           elumbu                 bone
                  hogo            po                        go
                  baa              vaa                       come
                  neeru           neer                      water
                  mattu           maTRum               and
                  horaTu         puRappadu            depart
                  biiDu           viiDu                   kan: halting place, tam: house
                  biDu            viDu                     let go
                  kanasu        kanavu                  dream
                  modalu        mudal                   first
                  kaDeya        kaDaisi                 last  
                  toLe             toi                        wash
                  naaru/naata  naaTRam/ naaRu/naatam   stink
                  vaasane        vaasanai               smell
                  vaanti           vaandi                   vomit
                  huri              porittu                   fry
                  huNNu         puNNu                   boil(boil on body)
                  meese         meesai                  moustache
                  kaDale         kaDalai                  groundnut
                  nILa            nILam                     length
                  agala           agalam                  breadth
                  sanna          chinna                   small
                  hiri              periya                     big
                  tappu           tappu                     wrong
                  seri              seri                       right
                  bala             vallamai/valimai                  strength (ironically the source of this word is from sanskrit)
                  tIrpu/tIrve       tIrpu/tIrvu               decision
                  nekku           nakku                    lick
                  kachchu/kaDi   kaDi                    bite
                  heNa              piNam                   dead body
                  katti               katti                       knife
                  haraTe           arattai                   chit chat
                  baaLu            vaazh                    live
                  aLavu             aLavu           kan:ability, strength  tam:measure,size
                  hiDi                piDi                      catch
                  hiDi                piDi                      suit
                  guddu             kuttu                    punch
                  bEga              vEgam                  fast
                  nere               neraiya                 kan:flood/deluge, tam:lots
                  kaTTu             kaTTu                  to tie
                  eNNe              eNNai                  oil
                  beNNe            vetNNey                butter
                  gaTTi              gaTTi                    tight
                  chenDu           pandu                   ball
                  ottu/amuku      amattu/amakku/     press
                  anTisu             oTTu                     stick
                  mEle               mEl                       up
                  keLage            kIzh                      down
                  chELu             tEL                       scorpion
                  ulivu                oli                         sound
                  beLaku            veLiccham             light
                  benDe kaayi     veNdaikaay            ladies finger
                  hengasu           peN                      lady
                  henDati            ponDaaTTi             wife

                  the list goes on and on and on.
                  notice i have not a single common sanskrit word. if you include sanskrit based words the list will blow up further.

                  atleast respect the effort i’ve put in making this list. it took me more than an hour to make this small list. before you start screaming that these are just coincidences let me tell you small facts(i assume you must be knowing this since you supposedly know tamil, kannada and telugu!!!!)

                  usually ha in kannada become pa in tamil, ba in kannada become va in tamil. tamil lacks ha, sa, sha,etc. the lipi structure is similar to other indian languages except that from each row there are only 2 letters instead of 5 and the rest are truncated.

                  don’t give that stupid sanskritization argument. the indigenous words do not disappear if  a language is sanskritized.

                  as i’ve said earlier,  kannada,tamil,telugu,tulu have rich indiginous dravidian vocabulary, these are furthur supported and assisted with sanskrit vocabulary. the formation and structurization of the languages were made by having sanskrit as a base language and role model(so as to speak).

                  i can give you evidence of sanskrit-kan/tel-tam links but that would take a lot time and hardwork. i can give you a simple example here

                  dakshiNa(sanskrit)-tenkaNa(kan)-teRku(tamil)

                  from whatever phonetic evidence i’ve seen i’ve come to the conclusion that telugu was formed first, followed by kannada, followed by tamil(hey, this is my personal conclusion. don’t pounce on me)

                  the reason tamil has older archeological evidence is because the rulers propogated tamil earlier. satavahanas propagated prakrit and only later were telugu and kannada propagated.

                  ive given you ample evidence. it is up to you to decide and interpret the facts. if you still want believe that kazakstan and lithuania are part of india but tamil nadu isn’t continue living in the imaginary axis. i’ll live in the real axis. people reading this can figure out what makes sense and what doesn’t

                  • Anonymous

                    First and foremost, you made an issue out of none and started this thread. I had quoted ancient texts and interpretations about the possibility of nuclear wars in Ancient India, and you alleged that I was glorifying nuclear wars and was proud of nuclear wars. I have clearly said repeatedly, by “proud” I meant proud of the advanced science and technology which the ancient Indians had, and never have said anything on lines of what you have alleged either in the article or in my comments.

                    Now if you want to have a discussion, have a healthy discussion. Why do you use terms like stupid, rubbish, etc in every reply? Such terms prove no point. You started it by saying things like “have you blown your fuse”. Did I force you to have a discussion with me and waste your time? I too spend an equal amount of time replying. Have I ever complained of you wasting my time?

                    Where did I say Telugu and Kannada have nothing in common? In fact I have said that Telugu and Kannada are more closer to each other than Tamil. Where did I say that Tamil is NOT Indian? Yes Lithuanian is definitely sanskritised, and if you are not aware of that, then is it my fault? For saying something that you were not aware of, you said “have you blown your fuse”. When you showed me something that I was not aware of (The Youtube Video in the earlier comments), I thanked you.

                    The list of common tamil-kannada words you posted is correct and I appreciate the time you have taken to list it out. But where have I said that tamil and kannada DO NOT have any words in common? All four languages Tamil,Kannada,Telugu,Malayalam share a common root. But Kannada and Telugu are more closer to each other than Kannada and Tamil. Forget even words, just take a look at the Kannada-Telugu scripts and compare with Kannada-Tamil scripts. Compared to Kannada, Telugu – Tamil is lesser sanskritised. Which is why I said, listen to Tamil news where they speak an even pure form of Tamil.

                    Why do you attribute things to me which I didnt say? Where have I said tamilnadu isnt a part of India? Is it my fault if Lithuanian is more sanskritised? And that was only the linguistic part. Culturally Tamilnadu is ofcourse Indian and Lithuania today is not. So where on earth have I said that Tamil is not Indian? I am not that nuts.

                    Regarding ancestry – my take is Tamil came first, closely followed by Kannada, which then was followed by Telugu. Its not just archaeological evidence, there is a lot of literary evidence for this. Literature holds more weight in relation to the ancestry of a language, because it shows how matured a language had developed into.

                    In fact Telugu is so sanskritised structurally that, some linguists actually believe Telugu to be a derived language of sanskrit, rather than a dravidian language. Telugu retains features of Sanskrit which have not been retained even in Hindi or Bengali!

                    Of course yes, people reading this will definitely figure out what makes sense – I have not moderated or filtered any comments nor have shied away from replying even though the entire thread was completely irrelevant to the content of this article.

                    • vina

                      whatever examples i have given is free from sanskrit as i have stated. and i can even go on to claim that tamil and kannada are closer than telugu and kannada. the list of common words bertween tamil and kannada is much much higher than telugu and kannada. in case you make a list of common words between kannada and telugu you must not include words of sanskrit because sanskrit is the common connection between all indian languages(including tamil). 

                      again the script example is also such a poor example. telugu and kannada have almost the same scripts because they were ruled by same/similar rulers for most part of their history. 

                      don’t give me examples of scripts when comparing languages. turkish and english both use the latin script. are they similar then just because they use the same script?

                       im talking more about language than script.  and even a highly sanskritized version of the tamil language exists and it is called manipravaalam(and this retains the full grantha lipi similar to sanskrit). next time you want to compare kannada and telugu for similarity look for common words of non sanskrit origin or dravidian origin. you will find much more commonality between tamil and kannada than telugu and kannada.

                      also your stupid claim of lithuanian being flooded with sanskrit also is false. i checked google and found out that whatever common words lithuanian has with sanskrit is through latin(just as i had suspected).

                       i also told you that many of the dravidian origin words themselves are corruptions of sanskrit words
                      ex: paarshva-pakka-pakkam(close by,sans-kan-tam)

                      such kind of study to find word evolutions will take a lot of time and dedication. 
                      and telugu is not directly derived from sanskrit please. i told you already the dravidian languages had a very rich vocabulary base and structure to begin with(the vocabulary base may have been filled with sanskrit words corrupted beyond recognition but the point is they were always there), and they used sanskrit as a base/inspiration to furthur improve the grammar, structure, and also import words when similar words did not exist in the existing dravidian language. i can give you innumerable examples of tamil words of sanskrit origin where simply there is no dravidian equivalent.

                      im making an issue because you are spreading major misinfo like lithuanian being very sanskritized(i already told you sansrit words entered lithuanian through latin. go figure out the logic) and fooling the innocent people who might read this. 
                      you also happily said that tamil and kannada are not that close, when i told you that atleast 30-40% common vocabulary is there between tam-kan you said nonono, and i clearly gave you a comon list fully free of sanskritic vocabulary(which are from sentamizh the language used in suntv news that you don’t seem to understand and hence name it as an alien language) of the common words between kan-tam. 

                      now even if you gimme a list between telugu-kan you will quote all sanskrit common words between them which would be a farce and would do little in proving a commonality between the 2 languages.

                      then you say telugu retains structure of sanskrit, more than hindi and bengali. please i already told you the people developing the language used sanskrit as a base/inspiration to furthur enrich the language already existing. hindi/bengali is not as sanskritic as telugu in its structure because they were ruled by muslim sultans for almost 900 years. again a bogus argument.

                      i can give a few common words between telugu and tamil also(again free of sanskritic commonalities). since i know very little telugu i can only give 2,3 words

                      tel           –    tam       –   eng 
                      konDa          kunRu       hill
                      chai             sei            do
                      chinna          sinna        small

                      again i donno many since i donno telugu.

                      and ya it is your fault if lithuanian is more sankritized because it most definitely isn’t. don’t spread misinfo/propaganda. whatever commonality exists is due to latin.

                      and regarding literary evidence when i said archeological evidence i meant archeological/literary evidence. see literary evidence comes about only when the kings support the language(which didn’t happen in karnataka/andhra due to satavahanas).  hence the lag. doesn’t mean these languages didn’t exist before the arrival of literary evidences. the strongest evidence is the phonetic/root words evidence which is used across language comparisons even today(agree with this point or even don’t agree with this also??). literature evidence is not used to compare languages(like you claim).

                      if you go by phonetic evidence with a clear unbiased mind you can figure out the link is 
                      sanskrit—maharashtra prakrit(spread at the time of the spread of buddhism)—-telugu—-kannada—tamil

                        

                    • Anonymous

                      From where on earth did you get the fact that Lithuanian imported Sanskrit from Latin? Lithuanian is a Baltic language while Latin is an Italic language and both these languages are on totally different linguistic branches. Can you show me some authentic link which says that Lithuanian imported Sanskrit words from Latin?

                      Lithuanian words are more Sanskrit like than corresponding Latin words. For instance in Sanskrit wolf is vrka, in Latin it is ulp, in Lithuanian it is vilke. Can a word from language A go to language B and to language C such that the word in C sounds more similar to A than the one in B? It more appears like Latin imported Sanskrit terms from Lithuanian than the other way round.

                      Here’s more. Sanskrit “as-ti” (used for singular he/she) becomes “es-ti” in Lithuanian and “es-t” in Latin. Now both Sanskrit and Lithuanian have similar sounding terms to refer dual persons like “s-vah”(Sanskrit), es-va(Lithuanian) meaning “we two” – while in Latin there is NO term for duals.

                      How can Sanskrit terms not appearing in Latin popup up into Lithuanian if Lithuanian got Sanskrit words from Latin?

                      Its not mere words that are common between these Sanskrit and Lithuanian. Entire sentences sound similar. Here is an example I found

                      dievas dave dantis, dievas duos ir duonos – This is Lithuanian
                      devas adadaat datas, devas daat api dhanas – This is the same sentence in Sanskrit
                      Both are proverbs in their own languages. 

                      The two languages are so similar that some even used to joke saying a Sanskrit professor who traveled to Lithuania was able to converse with a local peasant. Though this is surely an exaggeration.

                      Lithuanian being Sanskritised is a mis info I am spreading? Well linguists who read this will judge it for themselves. I myself came to know about this when a Lithuanian friend of mine revealed this to me. So much so for me fooling people with misinformation.

                      I saw that in the linguistic branches Telugu is on a different branch (Central Dravidian) and Kannada,Tamil are on a different branch (Proto Kannada Tamil). So here I accept that Kannada is more closer to Tamil.

                      But you are the first person I am hearing saying Telugu is older than Tamil and Kannada and that the other two languages came from Telugu and that Tamil came from Kannada. No worries, I dont accuse you of spreading any misinformation, because every person is entitled to his/her views.

    • vina

      I know very well about WWII and Pre-WWII history
      do you?

      • Anonymous

        I wouldnt talk on things I dont know, I have even read Mein Kempf, have you?

        • vina

          i haven’t read mein kampf, but reading mein kampf doesn’t automatically imply one knows each and every thing about WW2. i have clearly shown you evidence in prof sutton’s videos of the US sponsoring of the rise of nazism. his books will have evidence of documented bills of cash/technology transfers. so they are not baseless allegations

          BTW that statement”i know very well about WW2″ was made by you not me and i wanted to ask do you?. i donno how to do this quoting business here:D

          • Anonymous

            I referred to Mein Kempf to imply that I have read and seen both versions of the story. I do that at every available opportunity because usually winners write history and we should try to see both sides of the coin as much as possible.

            Again regarding US sponsoring nazism, I know it and have mentioned earlier too that it is same as US sponsoring Taliban earlier. Just because they were friends once doesnt mean, they shouldnt be foes in the future. Which is why I kept saying in politics there are no permanent friends or foes. US supported Taliban earlier – yes a fact – but does that mean one should support 9/11 type of attacks? Same applies to WWII Germany.

            I said “I know very well about WW2″ to literally mean that, because your earlier comments sounded as if I have no knowledge of WW2. I didnt question your knowledge of WW2 in the above statement :)

            • vina

              hence my question was, do you know enough about WW2

              it has been shown by evidence that the US did not attack many of the mega factories producing goods for nazi germany. why do you think that is?? what friends/foes are you talking about??

              again i request you to watch prof.Sutton’s interviews/read his books and make up your mind on the subject. i am not imposing any viewpoint on you. just showing you info with evidence as to what actually could have happened

              • vina

                goods as in war goods/war machinery

  • vina

    oh great. now you’ve put comment moderation on? fantastic
    i think sensible people must refrain from looking at this site

    • vina

      @itzguru:disqus  my reply to your silly questions seems to have disappeared under comment moderation

      • Prashanth

        You are needlessly getting overexcited.The article only seeks to educate how advanced the ancient Indians were.Today the westerners consider themselves as the cradle of civilization and have cooked up false theories like stone age,aryan invasion etc.This we study in text books and look towards them in awe.

        As for wars,these cannot be encouraged.Wars happen because of some bad people.The good don’t have much choice but to fight with them.In such times it is important that the good have better weapons than the bad ones.Only then the good can triumph.If you claim you are good and don’t keep weapons then the bad ones will endup with better weapons.Incase of attack you stand to lose.If both have the nuclear weapons it serves as a deterrent just like how India hates to go on a nuclear war with Pakistan.Ancient Indian wars took care not to harm the ordinary people not connected with war.But today no one cares about ethics in war.So nuclear weapons are a sorry reality of the world.

        • Anonymous

          True Prashanth, wars cannot be encouraged, but they do happen. Every human is not alike and its not the common man who has military power. And the aim of the article was to put forward the possibilities of ancient Indians having mastered great military technology. If writing about wars in history is wrong, then we should put a ban on every history book :)

          The main Mahabharath war was so ethical compared to modern wars
          1. War was fought within the boundaries of a geographical area designated as battle zone.
          2. War was not fought after sunset till the next sunrise.
          3. Soldiers weren’t supposed to kill unarmed soldiers or those who surrendered
          and so on…

        • vina

          ya, as long as articles on the web like this post the sources/evidence and the author’s interpretation things are fine(but no extrapolations please especially when the extrapolations turn out to be illogical). there is little doubt that ancient indians were  technologically advanced. many ayurvedic medicines like bhasma/choorna include ingredients like iron/mercury/calcium. ingredients which are toxic to humans but through a process these metals are made fit for human consumption. i think modern chemistry/biology is still befuddled by this, but instead they resort to name calling saying ayurvedic medicines have high amounts of mercury, etc while actually not reporting that these are actually safe for human consumption. i myself take a few grams of navayasa churna every week which contains 50% iron filings as an ingredient(anemia, bye bye :D )

          maybe individuals can be put under the good/bad category(again i personally don’t like using such terms) but definitely not a group of people or countries. can one say india is good and pakistan is bad? such statements make no logical sense.
          also i am totally in agreement that the vajpayee government was completely right in testing its nuclear capabilities. also you are right, as in the recent history of india the local kings never harmed the civilian population much when they were wars. also many of the kings were multi-lingual as in any of the kings in karnataka and andhra promoted kannada,telugu and sanskrit. archeological/historical sites in places near kollegal, bangalore, mysore had tamil script and many places in areas around trichy, madurai had telugu/kannada engravings. so multilinguism was always the speciality of india. reason i’m saying this is that it mattered little to the people as to who ruled them.

          but if we see evidence like many people in cities dying due to nuclear warfare in ancient india(provided it is proven properly) should we not be ashamed that regular citizens were harmed?? that was all my question was.

          • Anonymous

            And will you kindly enlighten me about where in the article have I done any extrapolation, or have wrote anything on lines of Pakistan is Bad and India is Good?

            Regular citizens were harmed in the history of every civilization, and it has been happening ever since Man stood up and walked and will continue to happen in the future too. So how does it make a special case for this article to be ashamed of some ancient war, while the article merely states facts and related interpretations from ancient texts?

            Is a war good if no nukes were used? Innocent civilians have been killed in all wars. Even the soldiers who are fighting a war at the behest of their ruler are innocents who are dying for somebody else’s cause unless and until they are the defending side. So shall we start going all over the world and tell all those who simply mention about an ancient war in his country or region to be ashamed of himself?

          • Anonymous

            And will you kindly enlighten me about where in the article have I done any extrapolation, or have wrote anything on lines of Pakistan is Bad and India is Good?

            Regular citizens were harmed in the history of every civilization, and it has been happening ever since Man stood up and walked and will continue to happen in the future too. So how does it make a special case for this article to be ashamed of some ancient war, while the article merely states facts and related interpretations from ancient texts?

            Is a war good if no nukes were used? Innocent civilians have been killed in all wars. Even the soldiers who are fighting a war at the behest of their ruler are innocents who are dying for somebody else’s cause unless and until they are the defending side. So shall we start going all over the world and tell all those who simply mention about an ancient war in his country or region to be ashamed of himself?

            • vina

              extrapolation was done in your comment section, not in the article per se. and the india-pak thing was written by another replier here not you, and i didn’t accuse you of any saying  india-pak good/bad either.

              • Anonymous

                Since you have not mentioned it explicitly, I guess you are referring to these lines of mine in the comments

                “We should be proud of our great history and ancient achievements, also as a society should learn from our mistakes in history”

                The first part of it is because the ancients knew so much of science and technology and so we should be proud of our history and and ancient achievements.

                The second part of it is because as is well known the Mahabharatha war ended up in massive destruction with no winners left and only ruins everywhere (which has been mentioned in the article as well), and we should be learning form these past mistakes and prevent any future wars.

                What is wrong with these statements?

                • vina

                  how can we be proud if we come to know that entire cities were erased from nuclear warfare in ancient india??? this was my question.

                  since you clearly say we should be proud, there is something ethically wrong in your statements. yes we should be proud if ancient indians indeed could build nad test nuclear weapons(again more evidence needs to come out on this subject).

                  no we should not be proud if we learn that entire cities were wiped out by nuclear warfare. we should be ashamed.

                  and of course we must learn from our past mistakes. 

                  • Anonymous

                    Come on, by your definition Americans shouldnt be proud of their physicists discovering the functioning of splitting atom because it was later used to create nuclear weapons. Why are you trying to imply as if I have said that I am proud of ancients using nukes in wars? I have stated clearly that, “proud of” was about the ability of ancients having known so much of science in nuclear physics. What is ethically wrong in being proud of the scientific achievements of the ancients?

                    And I have clearly stated that we should learn from our past mistakes, so where is the question of I being proud of weapons or wars wiping entire cities?

                    • vina

                      Come on, by your definition Americans shouldnt be proud of their physicists discovering the functioning of splitting atom because it was later used to create nuclear weapons.no, i never said that. i said they should be ashamed that they dropped bombs on the the  civilian centers of hiroshima and nagasaki. i already said that 
                      you have used words like “amazing information”, “ancient means (not) dumb”, “cases of instant death in some of the ancient indus valley sites” , etc. i found that there is a general tone of optimism instead of which ideally there should have been a tone of revulsion(provided evidence is found of nukes being used on civilian centres in ancient india), else there is nothing wrong in having a sense of optimism if nukes were built and tested.  NOT IF THEY WERE USED IN WARFARE

                    • Anonymous

                      Do you even read my replies? I have already told umpteen number of times that “amazing information”, “ancient means (not) dumb” – was to mean all about the advancements of science and technology the ancients had since they had enough knowledge of science and technology to develop nukes.

                      Have I anywhere said anything like “good that they used nukes”? dumb means one who doesnt know, and not being dumb means possessing the knowledge. Can “not being dumb” ever mean “fighting war” or “using nukes”? Do we call those who dont fight in war as “being dumb” in english?

                      What is the problem if somebody finds cases of instant death in indus valley sites? Does stating a fact or observation mean glorifying it?

                      And why are you deliberately missing out the other statement I made, that we should “learn from the lessons of history”, which was all about the ill effects of war and nukes?

                    • vina

                      comeon you said 2 nukes were needed to end WW2?? didn’t you say this? this statement was the catalyst of all these long and boring replies.

                      “learn from lessons of history”, thats like saying everything wrong 1st and then making amends with this silly statements. will not work with me :D

                    • Anonymous

                      That statement about WW2 came later in the discussion, your first comment was about we have to be ashamed of ancient nukes, and my statement of “learn from lessons of history” was much before you even made your first comment in this article. See the initial discussion thread where I replied to Raj http://www.hitxp.com/articles/history/ancient-nuclear-war-atomic-bomb-india-literary-evidence/#comment-308531776

                      Any person who reads the entire comments from oldest to recent will be able to make out what I mean.

                    • Anonymous

                      And you mean to say I have amended my earlier comments anywhere? If I were that type then would have never allowed any of your comments in the first place.

                    • Jayeshvvganga

                      Dear Guru,
                      This is first time i’m writing in this section. Till now i used to read all the discussion. Leave Vina becoz she is just one more Indian who does not believe in her own history and herself.
                      What i came to understand from all your article is that Indians were/are the best in scince & tech. We are hearing from childhood that the three main gods are Brahma,Vishnu & shiv and are the basic particle of any thing as western people says now Neutron,Proton and Electron. Ancient Indians  says Brahma is the creator where as western people changed the name to Neutron. Vishnu is the preserver and they say Proton is holding the nucleus. Lord Shiva is the destroyer and they say electron and the flow of electron which is current will can destroy any thing. They just changed the name.
                       Indians used teach science throgh good stories and colour full images.
                      Proud to be an Indian..

                      jay

                    • Anonymous

                      True Jay,
                      The very essence of Trimurti Concept shows the understanding that the universal divinity lies not just in mere existence – but also in the birth and death of this physical universe. If one gets into the concept of creation of the universe described in the ancient texts it is really so mystical.

                      The only eternal existence in the universe is said to be the Supreme Consciousness (referred to as Vishnu, Narayana, etc). And then there is the concept of Sankalpa. The universe is said to have created due to the Sankalpa of this eternal consciousness. Which is why it is depicted as Brahma coming out of the Nabhi of Vishnu. Brahma is the physical universe and nabhi as we know represents the birth, and the nabhi coming out of Vishnu indicates the supreme consciousness causing the birth of this universe. Brahma or our Universe in the end gets back into the Supreme Consciousness.

                      And this is just the tip of the iceberg! If only Sanskrit were as popular as English today, our entire understanding of world history and the universe would have been totally different. And most probably humans would have been living in harmony with nature around us.

      • Anonymous

        As replied earlier, your comment was in moderation queue because it contained two links – have approved it.

    • Anonymous

      Comment moderation is on in this site for any comment that contains links, to prevent comment spam. You should have even got a message after posting the comment that it will be in moderation queue for approval. This is an open forum and all discussions are welcome as long as they are in healthy language :)

  • Indian

    Can any one help me? My best friend is a big skeptic he even doesnt beleive that there is a string theory and just teases me for saying  nonsense 
    im an indian and i am proud of it

    • Anonymous

      How did your friend conclude that there is no string theory? Just one google search is enough to show loads of information about it :)

  • vina

    you make it sound like it is a cool thing to have a nuclear war over petty geopolitics(which happened in japan in which my take is that the US did not want to achieve anything much but wanted to show to the world the power of a nuclear bomb).

    if something like this did happen we must be ashamed not proud

    • Anonymous

      No war is cool, but there is no civilization on this planet without a history which has no war. So going by that, every civilization on this planet should be ashamed of – fighting for their survival? Is it cool if the wars fought were non-nuclear?

      All animal species by nature are fighters for their survival and humans are no exception to it. Why do countries have military, army, bombs even today? Shouldn’t we be ashamed today for having nukes which can destroy this planet well over a thousand times?

      If US had not nuked Japan, world war II would not have ended in 1945. If Germany/Japan had succeeded in building the nukes first, then instead of Japanese cities, it would have been US/Allied European cities which would have been nuked. Every country does its best to survive, and thats what US did. Germans had pounded rockets loaded with tonnes of chemical bombs on London, except that it was not nuke and it missed the target. Germans and Japanese had bombed loads of European cities in the war, except that they didnt have nuclear technology to use nukes.

      BTW I believe there is lot more for us to be ashamed of ourselves today – from polluting this planet to chopping down forests to denying wildlife their safe homes to altering natural genes in the name of GM food to throwing up plastic waste all over the planet to so many other things… Future generations in another two or three centuries will be more ashamed of our present generation than the generations who warred thousands of years back – because we will be giving them a completely polluted planet.

      • Rashmi P

        Today I am more ashamed of the behavior of many of my fellow Indians who come to US on temporary work visas. First, most of them come on business visas and do work which in itself is illegal. On top of that, their social and civic behavior is, what can I say …..

    • I=Indian

      Suppose today Pakistan tries to nuke India. Getting to know this India nukes Pakistan first to protect itself. Do you think India should be ashamed of itself for doing this?

      • vina

        yes, of course we must be ashamed. is this even a justified question? lets analyze facts, atleast historical ones. back in the cold war days both the US and USSR stockpiled huge weapons of mass destruction and were essentially waiting for a green signal to have a go at one another(for more info on this subject i suggest you watch the movie Dr.Strangelove by stanley kubrick and also read relevant historical documents). there were crazy military generals on both the sides(US and the USSR) who were essentially spreading propaganda and trying to raise consensus with the general public to go for a war. luckily nothing of that sort happened. presently the relation between india and pakistan is nowhere even near this kind of a tipping point(ill come back to india-pak later).

        suppose a nuclear war happened between US and the soviets, which didn’t necessarily wipe out the population but caused deaths in the millions on both the sides(say 25 years ago). could people on either sides(present day russians /present day americans) and the neutral spectators like us justify something like that? does anyone alive today justify the hiroshima and nagasaki bombings??
        as i said earlier the US dropped the 2 bombs in japan simply to show the effect of the nuclear bombs to the world and proclaim itself as number 1. this is the most pathetic display of chauvinism in the past century.

        on pak nuclear testing- india did the fission nuclear test in 1974 followed by potential fusion/boosted weapon test in 1998. 17 days later pak does its first fission test and 2 days after the fission test it does the fusion test ROFLMAO :D

        so it’s clear that the indian technology is largely indigenous(there could be a little outside help) but basically pak bought nuclear technology from the US as a panic measure against india. so what actually happened is pak became a puppet to the US. it was already a puppet of the US, but after this it came totally under US control and even today is a full time puppet of the US and eats up a large amount of US aid. so who according to you is the “villain” here?(BTW i don’t believe in good/bad, villain/hero dichotomy and most of the people are a mixture of good and bad) is it the US or pakistan? according to me it is both, because pak has allowed the militant islamic ideology, instead of the more peaceful version, to diffuse into it’s culture and has made anti-india a basis for its existence. also, my personal opinion is that the vajpayee government was very right in conducting the tests as the congress government would never conduct these tests and i think it is in the interest of most indians that we do not lag behind very much to the rest of the world in issues like this and let others boss us around.

        on india -pak, present pak government doesn’t have the balls to wage a regular war on india let alone drop a few nuclear bombs here and there knowing very well what could be the possible outcomes of such an act. so the major problem to india comes from the taliban(i quote taliban here as it is the most famous name but i’m including all the other related groups also) and the related groups in the khyber-pakthunwalla region. 

        a bit of history about this region. the british split the “pakhtunwalla region” between pak and afghanistan(durand line, or in other words divide and rule) so essentially afghanistan and pakhtunwalla regions are one(or atleast very similar) so for now when i mention afghanistan let it include pakhtunwalla also. now to some prehistory :D .  the afghanistan region was always poorer(due to the desert like climate) to india. they   consisted of many tribes always warring with each other. every now and then they would galvanize into a force and attack india. usually that means they would attack punjab cause that is what comes first in the route. the list of tribes(pre islam) are numerous and some like the kushanas(although they were originally from present day tajikistan i think) established empires well into the heartland of india. so the list includes sakas,kambojas,hunas,gandhara,yavana,pahlava,etc
        keep in mind that punjab, sindh and kashmir(kashyapa meera) were very much a part of india(sindh now in pakistan although kutch in india, part of punjab is in india most of it is in pak, many kashmiris are unhappy with the indian military although we know what will happen if kashmir breaks away from india. taliban has already captured Swat which is right next to kashmir and without the indian military they will take kashmir also)

        post islam the history repeats. although some rulers may have mughal(mongol), or turkic ancestry, most of the army was always built up in afghanistan. and many rulers are very successful in establishing empires across india. 

        the point of all this history is that the pashtuns,tajik,and the other groups of afghanistan are inherently militaristic. the US first formed the taliban as a force against the red soviet army, but the story did not end there after the end of the cold war. they continued to fund the militant groups and even now fund these groups and the trouble that india currently faces is that the taliban or some other related/similar group could capture power in pak and use those nuclear weapons against india. this is the most realistic fright that most indians face today. so lets make one thing clear about this. taliban/al-qaeda is a puppet of the US. pak is a puppet of the US. so unless the US wishes it, taliban cannot seize political power in pakistan. most of the pakistanis(even the ones who don’t particulary like india) would not like such a thing to happen. the first problem of such a takeover is that the severe militant islamic proselytism would start, and anti india propaganda will become stronger and the free media would be curbed. these sow the seeds of the public brainwashing. once most of the general public is brainwashed the generals or the people in power can carry out military operations. this has been the standard technique of waging a war at least in the recent history if not since a long time.

        so what should indians do if the taliban captures power in pak(this is very very unlikely since mainstream pak i.e punjab and sindh will definitely not wish this)? we must first run to the US for assistance in removing the taliban, because as i said it is only the US which could put it there. if US asks for a “bribe” i guess we must sort out a deal because the last thing india needs is a nuclear war(especially at a time when we are actually witnessing significant economic growth). forget about pak, if a nuclear war takes place they will be pretty much annihilated, if they at all survive it will only be because of US support.

        ok, many would ask have i gone mad to write such a long write up? the reason for writing such a long write up is that quite a few people become emotional and say lets nuke pak, every time there is a bomb blast in mumbai. there are other ways to deal with pak sponsored terrorism in india. imagine the implications if we did nuke pak and in retaliation pak(or rather US) nuked india. how many indians would get killed???

        do the math yourself

        • Anonymous

          As I replied earlier, US dropped nukes on Japan (though which can never be justified because of the civilian casualties and radiation effects involved) to quickly end the war, not having to prolong the war even further. Japan refused to surrender even after the first bomb was dropped and so it dropped the second after which Japanese surrendered. Read the WW II history books once and you will know what I mean. You will also then know the kind of attrocities Japanese forces committed in China and eastern Indian during the war which mostly involved civilians.

          Now regarding Pak nukes – its an open secret that it was a Chinese product not US – US never gave any nukes to Pak. Guess you arent even aware about Khan network and the nuclear Black market he ran. The Entire arsenal of Pak bombs and missiles technology are thanks to Chinese and North Koreans – not US. US only funded them, gave money in the past, and some scaled down versions of fighter jets – but never gave any technology to Pak.

          Pak is not such a puppet of US as it is made out to be. Else US wouldnt have to get its forces killed on Pak soil, nor Osama would have been hiding in Pak for so long without being traced – nor would there be a ISI-CIA stand off of the recent times.

          To say that Pak is a puppet of US, or Taliban is a puppet of US is a wrong picture. No country will fight war with its puppets, allowing its own soldiers to be killed – risking its own technology of being leaked like it happened during the Osama raid. If Pak and Taliban were real puppet of US, then they would have handed over Osama to US themselves.

          US is under severe debt today and simply wants to wash off its hands post Osama from the Af-Pak region. And this is the greatest threat to India. To say that Taliban or Pak wont seige power in Afghanistan post US exit without US willing to do so is a joke. Taliban and Pak both are waiting for complete US exit from the region, and that poses the biggest threat to India.

          Its NOT the “Pak Government” that matters in waging war with India, its the Pak Military that has done it every time. Pak Government is only a symbolic entity with no real power in hand. The Pak Military – China nexus has more than enough balls to wage a war with India, just wait for US exit from the region and see what happens. War need not mean all out declared war – Chinese and Paki incursions will see a steep rise in Indian borders and keep encroaching more and more terrirory and our government will keep denying it as usual. Chinese have a great game plan already – look at the way they have surrounded India from every direction – they even have a port in Srilanka and will in the near future setup a military base there.

          And our government it looks like is thinking that things will go on to be like this forever. India will never show the guts to retaliate with Pak or China because of the nuke fear. Even during the Kargil war by directing the Indian Army not to cross LOC, India lost hundreds of soldiers and the entire war was fought withing Indian territory – all because of the fear of Pak nukes.

          What makes you think that US will hear us if Taliban takes over Pak? Or what can US do in that matter? You think they can afford to send their army with the kind of debt they have. By next year this time Obama will again have to run to Congress requesting another debt increase. Only reason US will want to help India is because of the economic interests of US companies in India.

          And lo, aren’t we ashamed – a nation of one billion people – one sixth of humanity – looking for some country across continents to save us from misery! What if there was no country called US today, or US is unable to help us – are we then going to allow Taliban or a rogue element take over in Pak to start troubling us?

          He he, why on earth will US nuke India if India nukes Pak? At the very hint of that, US companies will nuke US government :)

          The biggest mistake was allowing Pak to become a nuclear power. It is just a matter of time before a rogue fundamentalist faction takes over Pak and its nukes – what are we going to do then? Allow ourselves to be nuked? And what if all that happens overnight? Will we even have enough time to ring up US and wait for them to respond?

    • Yash P

      If one is ashamed of nuclear bombs, then one should be also ashamed of the war fought. Any type of bombing is only a byproduct of a war. It is a known thing that Mahabharatha war took place. So did so many other wars. We see infighting within humanity ever since the dawn of history. This is not restricted only to India or Mahabharatha times alone. Thus, one should be ashamed of being human in this case. Hence, one cannot cherry pick an isolated incident of some bombing in some ancient war as a thing to be ashamed of. Moreover I do not see any glorification of the war in the article besides quoting from the epic and the author’s interpretation of those quotes. You can find hundreds of such articles on the web about nuclear bombing during second world war, and dozens of documentaries in history channel, natgeo etc which also show war time visuals. Are they glorification of the war?

      • vina

        no one should not be ashamed of nuclear bombs, since they are inevitable once the nuclear technology is developed. in this modern era if oppenheimer wouldn’t have developed it someone else a few years later would have. oppenheimer was a historical figure who was doing his job. we must look at his accomplishments with disconnect, not pride or vilification. since the author continuously quotes this oppenheimer quote from the geeta i have a problem. and also the general tone of the writing is one of optimism especially when he has written things like “amazing information”, “ancient means (NOT) dumb”  and also things like entire cities were wiped out, for ex: he says that many of the skeletons found in the indus valley sites are highly radioactive, pots were found fused, this could have been a case of instant death .

        now if indeed this is proven to be true that during some of the ancient wars of india nuclear bombs indeed were used to wipe out entire civilian cities, should we not be ashamed???
        if nuclear bombs were built and tested then we can be proud, but if they were used against innocent civilians we have to be ashamed.

        should we also be proud of raavaNa abducting seeta also just because it is mentioned in raamaayaNa?

        • Anonymous

          Hello Boss, what is your problem if I quote Oppenheimer quoting Gita? Does Gita glorify nukes? Is explaining the effects of a weapon glorifying it? Does saying “Nukes can destroy entire cities” mean glorifying nukes?

          And where did this Raavan come from now? Have I anywhere said “ancients used nukes so let us be proud of the ancients?”

        • Yash P

          Why not? Of course we should be ashamed of nuclear bombs because we are misusing the science to create killer weapons. If some maniac like Hitler gets elected to the top post of a country having nuclear weapons then all hell will break loose.

          I see no problem in quoting Bhagavadgita. Bhagavadgita is not some banned text nor is Oppenheimer some insane person. From the tone of the article I can see that the author is referring to the so far unknown information and calls it “amazing information”. Indeed it is amazing, because I never knew about this. I also see that the author saying in the comment section that he was referring to the possible advances in nuclear physics ancient people could have made. So where is the problem?

          Do you expect people to sit and cry every time somebody discovers about some ancient war that took place? What has happened was bad, but the article in question is not about whether the happenings were right or wrong. It merely states what might have caused what happened. We cannot expect every book or documentary on World War II Histry to end saying “USA should be ashamed of…”

          Who said we should be proud of Ravana? It is again a fact that Ravana abducted Sita. But just stating a fact does not mean one is endorsing it.

          • vina

            i feel that once nuclear technology is developed, the making of nuclear bomb is inevitable. that is just the animal in us that makes us do it. of course oppenheimer was not crazy but just doing the job as if it wasn’t him, it would have been someone else.

            again regarding the article, i asked the main blogger here as to shouldn’t we be ashamed and he didn’t change his stance and the arguments spilled over to unknown territories rofl.

            • Yash P

              Inevitable? Not really. If countries can agree on not to develop chemical and biological weapons, why not agree on nuclear weapons? If the animal can be suppressed for chemical and biological, why not for nuclear. After all, it is the most civilized nations on this planet which have nukes today, not some Sudan or Somalia, so the animal thing does not make sense.

              If Oppenheimer was doing his job, then so was the pilot of the plane which dropped the bomb. So was the president of US who ordered this. The US President had to make sure that his forces do not continue to fight and die when they had a more powerful weapon, the pilot was just following the President’s orders. The US President is there to save US people and US army men, not of his foes.

              I have read comments where the main blogger has mentioned “we should be learning form these past mistakes and prevent any future wars”. And I dont see him supporting the war anywhere. I think you have needlessly created a completely off topic thread in this article, though I enjoyed reading the arguments and counter points.

              • vina

                even though countries don’t admit to using chemical/biological warfare they very much still use it although covertly. 

                i have already shown you evidence through links where the US and it allies did not bomb the mega factories of germany which were producing the war goods/machinery, which could have ended WW2 with much lesser suffering. also initially it was US which transferred technology for increasing the octane number of gasoline to make it fit for aviation to germany, also the technology to obtain oil from coal. germany did not exactly have a lot of oil resources.

                all this evidence is present in the links i’ve provided.

  • Raj

    I suggest you write an open letter to United Nations to get a proper place for India in world history. I am fed up reading every where that whatever we are seeing now were originated in India. Though one feels happy and proud but whats the use.? Can it bring any change in the present condition of India or its status in the International arena?

  • Raj

    I suggest you write an open letter to United Nations to get a proper place for India in world history. I am fed up reading every where that whatever we are seeing now were originated in India. Though one feels happy and proud but whats the use.? Can it bring any change in the present condition of India or its status in the International arena?

    • Anonymous

      We should be proud of our great history and ancient achievements, also as a society should learn from our mistakes in history. But having said that, I dont think we should look out for any certificate of appreciation from anybody else about our pride. It shouldnt be about what others think about us, it should be what we think of ourselves and our history.

      As for current status, history should only act as a measure for us to see how much our ancients had achieved. And we should be using these past achievements as a motivation to achieve more in the present and future. We shouldnt be expecting the world to honor us based only on our past achievements. Great people outside Inida like Einstein, Bohr, Schrodinger, Mark Twain, Will Durant have all acknowledged ancient Indian’s achievements many a times in the past. As for detractors, there always will be such people.

      But to change the present status of India, we should be working towards solving our issues and achieving milestones in different fields of expertise and interest. Past history can in no way lift our status or improve our society if we dont perform today. Vedic seers, Vyasa, Agastya, Aryabhata, Bhaskara, Charaka, Sushruta, Panini, Chanakya, Ashoka, Shivaji – all achieved so much and hence made our history and country proud. If we are to be proud today, the only way is to achieve great things in a similar way, build a great society, solve our problems – and there by make the future generations to be proud of us as their ancestors :)

  • Prashanth

    What you say might be true.. Also the Vedic people knew of deeper sciences which is unknown to people now.So the weapons could have utilized the knowledge of the deeper sciences as well.The westerners have created a wrong history of entire world under stone age when ancient India was so advanced..

    • Anonymous

      History as we read in our textbooks , especially the history of pre chrisitian era is total junk, is more of a cooked up story propagated a thousand times to popularize a biased interpretation of a section of the society.