Birth date of Rama

While the government of India and Archaeological Society of India (ASI) are blabbering left and right about Rama, Ramsethu and Ramayana without doing any proper research on the subject, here is a simple yet powerful research done on the subject.

Based on the astronomical dating of the events described in the original ancient Valmiki Ramayana and using modern software to date the planetary positions, Pushkar Bhatnagar of the Indian Revenue Service has accurately dated the events in Ramayana.

As per this research the birth date of Rama is on January 10, 5114 BC !

Dates of the historical events were mentioned in the texts by the ancient Indian authors via the method of astronomical dating where the planetary and stellar positions on the day(night!) of the event were mentioned. This ensures that even after millenia one can get back to the actual date on which the event occurred, because when we have multiple events mentioned in a historical text with astronomical dating, its almost impossible to get more than one date for the collection of all these events! At the same time astronomical dating also validates the event itself because for multiple events to be accurately specified a person had to be either present on those days to record the event, (The other alternative being if the text is a myth, then the author has to take all the pain in this world to calculate the stellar and planetary positions for the events of the dates mentioned in his work, which is possible only by modern software. Also, why on earth would a myth need real dates unless and until there is some conspiracy for the future! )

The method of astronomical dating has another scientific advantage. No need of a calendar like Gregorian or Caesarian or whatever. If tomorrow say few thousand years deep in the future, if some other system of calendar is used, then what is the proof that how long back or when exactly had I written this article? 2007 indicates nothing unless and until one actually knows the Gregorian calendar! Astronomical dating on the other hand has no such problems!

Read the interview and the article here. To find archaeological evidences of over 7000 years old history, one needs to dig at least 60 meters deep at the historical sites, and our ASI has not gone beyond 5 meters at the Ayodhya site!!

Also do not miss this wonderful informative article on the found and lost proofs at Ayodhya

The Research work could be purchased here  – Dating the Era of Lord RAM

Whether sweet or sour, History should only be read as it is, it should not be written to match our taste.

History should only be read, not written

  • Samrat

    Can you tell the death date of Rama? I think absolutely not. Am I right?

  • Kun

    Hey Gurudev. I’ve read your article on the ancient texts of the Vedas on modern science and mathematics and i felt it was very good but there are few places where few numbers have gone wrong. If you would not consider the numbers as an exaggeration and just like a good scientific mind would do – verify, I would like to tell that the Yugas in the Vedic Timescale are very large compared to one of the examples you have used. LIke the Treta Yuga which was before the Dwapara Yuga and Kaliyuga and the Krita Yuga before all of them and the time scales in the ratio 4:3:2:1 (Krita:Treta:Dwapara:Kali) with spans of 17,28,000yrs,12,96,000yrs,8,64,000yrs and 4,32,000yrs respectively. One of the best books describing these time scales would be the Surya Siddhantha so it is not just 7000yrs for the Ramayana. Also the Kaliyuga has begun in the year 3102B.C which puts us just abour 5000years past the beginning of this Yuga out of the 4,32,000years remaining before we finish the 29th Mahayuga. When there could be so much of a correlation with modern science to Vedic Science then that should also apply to the dates of the ramayans too.Please do look into this matter and act as per the results.

    • itzguru

      The confusion is because of the yuga cycles applied for universal cycles and the yuga cycle used to represent history are same. For more information please read Sri Yukteshwara Giri’s works on span of yugas. It is like confusing plasma, the fourth state of matter, with plasma in our blood. Both have same name, but mean different in different contexts.

      • kumar

        according to these dates kali yuga would have already been over because dwapara yuga lasted only for 2000 years(5114 bce to 3102 bce)if kali yuga had started on 3102 bce then kali yuga must have been over

  • http://www.facebook.com/neelakantan.iyer1 Neelakantan Iyer

    gurudev i read in ur other article about the age of universe. according to that article treta yuga must have been 1300000 years approximately. then how can rama’s birthdate be 5114bc when dwapara yugaitsellf is said to have ended around 5000bc?

    • itzguru

      According to my understanding after reading Sri Yukteshwara’s works on Yuga cycles, these are different cycles altogether bearing similar names. The yuga cycle talking about the life span of Brahma is about the evolution of this universe, while the ones used to historical recordings are of much smaller time spans. This is my present understanding.

  • Swami Atmalokananda

    Hello Gurudev,

    Am enjoying your various posts and find that we have some thoughts in common. Like your interpretations on quantum mechanics and how you draw us back to the Vedas for clarification and answers to what puzzles us in the modern world.

    Regarding dates for Ramayana – what about the finding of ancient Dwaraka off the coast (2 miles, 200 ft depth) of present day Dwaraka in 2001? If the Ramayana and Rama were before Krishna, that pushes back its time period a long way. The ocean covered Dwaraka dates back to around 12000bc, from carbon dating of remains there.

  • ::

    I have read that year of Demi gods= 360 yrs of a human. Actually I know how that is possible in North pole the sun is below horizon for some months and above during summer. That perfectly makes 1day = 1year and so 1yr =360 yrs. I have heard that bhrama or some other gods live in North pole. 

    • Anonymous

      Yes, that is a very interesting observation, if you havent read already you should definitely read the work “Arctic Home in the Vedas” by Balgangadhar Tilak.

  • B.V.Audinarayana

    Sir
    / Madam

     

    Birth
    date of Rama is mentioned as 5114 BC, but as per Ramayana, Sri Rama lived in
    Treta yuga. Working backwards, Treta Yuga is of 12,96,000 years. Hence falls between
    21,63,000 BC and 8,67,000 BC. According to NASA, the age of Rama Sethu is 1,750,000
    years old and falls in Treta Yuga.

     

    I
    would like to bring to your notice that almost all software packages limit the
    year to four digits, as there is no necessity for the year to exceed four
    digits. When the allotted space is 4 digits, the computer processor would
    truncate the bigger figure to 4 digits eliminating the digits from left side. For
    example, if the date is 17,55,114 BC, it will cut off the first 3 digits 175
    and will display only 5114 BC. (This is in some ways similar to the Y2K problem
    in 1999AD, which required changing digits from 2 to 4 for year.) This may be
    verified with the USA
    software company Fogware Publishing about “Planetarium Gold.”

     

    I
    have faced such a problem in 1990 when we were processing the civilian officers
    pay bills. The pay of a particular officer was Rs.11,320. As the number exceeded
    9999, the computer eliminated the 1 on the left and printed his pay as Rs. 1,320.
    We made the correction by manually adding 1 on the left side.

     

    The
    Gregorian calendar (Christian Calendar) that we are using presently went through
    a lot of changes (from Lunar to Solar) and corrections and only in 1582 AD, Pope
    Gregory XII finalized the present calendar after missing and shifting two
    months. The Calendar was named after him. The loss of two months can be clearly
    seen from the names of the months, as September (Septa =7) is 9th
    month, October (Octa = 8) is10th month, November (Nov = 9) is 11th
    month, December (Deca =10) is 12th month in the present calendar.

     

    Most
    of the astrology software packages follow Zodiac signs for months, prior to 1581AD
    Gregorian calendar. For Aries (Mar 22 to April 20) as Month 1, Taurus (April 21
    to May 21)as 2, Gemini (May 22  to June
    21) as 3, Cancer (June 22  to July 23) as
    4, Leo (July 24  to Aug 23) as 5, Virgo (Aug
    24  to Sept 23) as 6, Libra (Sept 24  to Oct 23) as 7, Scorpio (Oct 24   to Nov 22) as 8, Sagittarius (Nov 23  to Dec 22) as 9, Capricorn (Dec 23   to Jan 20) as 10, Aquarius (Jan 21    to Feb 19) as 11, Pisces (Feb 20   to Mar 21) as Month 12.

     

    It is mentioned that
    the date of birth of Sri Rama as 10th January. It was mentioned that
    the Sun is in Aries (March 22 to April 20). If this is taken into consideration
    the date will be 1st April 17, 55,114 BC.

     

    Sri
    Rama Navami comes in the month of Chaitra of Lunar calendar, which normally
    falls in March or April of present Christian calendar. The date of Sri Ram
    Navami in the last few years is as follows. 9th April in 1995, 28th
    March in 1996,16th April in1997, 16th April in1997, 5th
    April in 1998, 25th March in1999, 12th April in 2000, 2nd
    April in 2001, 21st April in 2002, 11th April in 2003, 30th
    March in 2004, 18th April in 2005, 7th April in 2006, 27th
    March in 2007. 14th April in 2008 (starting of Solar Calendar and
    Tamil New year), 3rd April in 2009. It can be observed that Sri Rama
    Navami was between 25th March and 21st April for the last
    15 years. Hence January may not be correct.

     

    Based
    on this, the modified dates are as follows.

    Sri
    Rama Birth Date = 1 April 17,55,114BC, 

    Vanavasam
    starting = 27 March 17,55,089BC, 

    War
    with Khar Dushan = 30 Oct 17,55,077BC,

    Hanuman
    return from Lanka = 6 Dec 17,55,076BC,

    Ravanas
    death = 23 Feb 17,55,075BC,

    Sri
    Rama return to Ayodhya =  24 March
    17,55,075BC.

     

    I
    request that, if you hold the software, try reverse feeding by giving the date
    in your book, it should give the correct planetary position. Please try by
    feeding the date 17,55,114 BC and check the planetary position. This may be
    possible for you to verify if your software permits you to enter a 7 digit
    figure for year. I feel that 5114 and 17 in the left hand side may be correct
    and I doubt the figure 5 in between. You may try 1 to 9 and check the
    results. 

     

    B.V.Audinarayana 

    Email:
    bandaruva@gmail.com 

    • Kun

      That was some good research.
      Arigathon Gozaimas

  • Akshay

    I wanna read the part of ramayana after Yudha kanda. I am not able to find it on internet. Only things I am able to find is a manipulated story by critics. I know the story by word of mouth I just want to read it to know more. Please can you provide me with any help with some links.

    • Anonymous

      You can read the Yuddha Kanda of the original Valmiki Ramayan here
      http://www.valmikiramayan.net/yuddha_kanda_contents.html

      • Akshay

         I have read the Yuddha Kanda. I hv heard about the ashvamedha yagya, battle with Luv and kush. Sita wants to grow her children in the vicinity of nature, so she gives birth to them in a forest. Even Rama hears about some dhobi saying wrong things about Rama and Sita. Also kings in treta yuga used to believe that they were role models for their people.  So he accepts her going to the forest. Where can I find that story.

  • B.V.Audinarayana

    1) In the book, the
    birth date of Rama is mentioned as 5114 BC, but as per Ramayana, Rama lived in
    Treta yuga.

     

    Working backwards, the
    beginning of Kali Yuga (which is also the end of Dwapara Yuga) is around 3,000
    BC. Dwapara Yuga is of 8,64,000 years. Hence, the beginning of Dwapara Yuga
    (and end of Treta Yuga) would be 8,67,000 BC. Treta Yuga is of 12,96,000 years.
    Hence the beginning of Treta Yuga would be 2,16,3000 BC. According to this, Sri
    Rama lived between 21,63,000 BC and 8,67,000 BC. According to NASA calculations,
    the age of Rama Sethu is 1,750,000 years old. This corresponds to the period of
    Treta Yuga.

     

    I would like to bring
    to your notice that almost all software packages limit the year to four digits,
    as there is no necessity for the year to exceed four digits. When the allotted
    space is 4 digits, the computer processor would truncate the bigger figure to 4
    digits eliminating the digits from left side. For example, if the date is 17,55,114
    BC, it will cut off the first 3 digits 175 and will display only 5114 BC. (This
    is in some ways similar to the Y2K problem in 1999AD, which required changing
    digits from 2 to 4 for year.) This may be verified with the USA software
    company Fogware Publishing about “Planetarium Gold.”

     

    I have faced such a problem
    in 1990 when we were processing the civilian officers pay bills in Directorate General
    Naval Projects (DGNP), Visakhapatnam.
    The pay of a particular officer was Rs.11,320. As the number exceeded 9999, the
    computer eliminated the 1 on the left and printed his pay as Rs. 1,320. We made
    the correction by manually adding 1 on the left side. The package program was
    written in COBAL and trying to increase the space for digits could not be
    possible with out the Original program. Finally we switched over to Lotus123,
    and printing was done using Macros in Lotus123. 
        

     

    The Gregorian calendar
    (Christian Calendar) that we are using presently went through a lot of changes
    (from Lunar to Solar) and corrections and only in 1582 AD, Pope Gregory XII finalized
    the present calendar after missing and shifting two months. The Calendar was
    named after him. 

     

    The loss of two
    months can be clearly seen from the names of the months, as

    September (Septa = 7)
    is   9th month,

    October     (Octa   = 8) is 10th month,

    November (Nov    = 9) is 11th month, and finally

    December (Deca  = 10) is 12th month in the present
    calendar.

     

    Most of the astrology
    software packages follow Zodiac signs for months prior to 1581AD Gregorian
    calendar.

     

    Month

    Zodiac
    sign

    Rasi

    Present
    Calendar

     

    Days

    Month
    1

    Aries

    Mesha

    Mar 22 to April 20

    10+20

    30

    Month
    2

    Taurus

    Vreshabha

    April 21 to May 21

    10+21

    31

    Month
    3

    Gemini

    Midhuna

    May 22  to June 21

    10+21

    31

    Month
    4

    Cancer

    Karkataka

    June 22  to July 23

      9+23

    32

    Month
    5

    Leo

    Simha

    July 24  to Aug 23

      8+23

    31

    Month
    6

    Virgo

    Kanya

    Aug 24  to Sept 23

      8+23

    31

    Month
    7

    Libra

    Tula

    Sept 24  to Oct 23

      7+23

    30

    Month
    8

    Scorpio

    Vruchika

    Oct 24   to Nov 22

      8+22

    30

    Month
    9

    Sagittarius

    Dhanas

    Nov 23  to Dec 22

      8+22

    30

    Month
    10

    Capricorn

    Makara

    Dec 23   to Jan 20

      9+20

    29

    Month
    11

    Aquarius

    Kumba

    Jan 21    to Feb 19

    11+19

    30

    Month
    12

    Pisces

    Meena

    Feb 20   to Mar 21

      9+21

    30

     

     

     

    Total

     

    365

     

     

     

    For Leap Year

    10+21

    366

     

    The correction for
    leap year is made by adding a day to the last month which is more logical, than
    adding the additional day in the second month as in the present calendar.

     

    2) It is mentioned
    that the date of birth of Sri Rama as 10th January. It was mentioned
    that the Sun is in Aries (March 22 to April 20). If this is taken into
    consideration the date will be 1st April 17, 55,114 BC.

     

    Sri Rama Navami comes
    in the month of Chaitra of Lunar calendar, which normally falls in March or April
    of present Christian calendar. For example this year it fell on 3rd
    April 2009. Last year it was on 14th April 2008 (starting of Solar
    Calendar and Tamil New year). The date of Sri Ram Navami in the last few years
    is as follows.

    -         
    27th March in 2007,

    -         
    7th April in 2006,

    -         
    18th April in 2005,

    -         
    30th March in 2004,

    -         
    11th April in 2003,

    -         
    21st April in 2002, 

    -         
    2nd April in 2001, 

    -         
    12th April in 2000,

    -         
    25th March in1999,

    -         
    5th April in 1998,

    -         
    16th April in1997,

    -         
    28th March in 1996,

    -         
    9th April in 1995.

     

    It can be observed
    that Sri Rama Navami was between 25th March and 21st
    April for the last 15 years. Hence January may not be correct.

     

     

     

    Based on this, the modified
    dates are as follows.

     

    Important
    Incidences

    From
    Book

    Dates

    From Book

    Modified  to

    Present calendar

    Sri Rama Birth Date

    10 Jan 5114BC

    1 April 17,55,114BC

    Vanavasam starting

    5 Jan 5089BC

    27 March 17,55,089BC

    War with Khar
    Dushan

    7 Oct 5077BC

    30 Oct 17,55,077BC

    Hanuman return from
    Lanka

    14 Sep 5076BC

    6 Dec 17,55,076BC

    Ravanas death

    4 Dec 5076BC

    23 Feb 17,55,075BC

    Sri Rama return to
    Ayodhya

    2 Jan 5075BC

    24 March
    17,55,075BC

     

    It is believed that
    Sri Rama was born in first pada of Treta Yuga. 

    The following table
    shows the the years of Yugas with padas in BC.

     

    Yuga

    Years

    End BC

     Start
    BC

    Kali yuga Total

    4,32,000

     

     

    Kali yuga Vs BC
    (apx)

    3,000

     

    3,000

    Dwapara Yuga Pada 2

    4,32,000

    3,000

    4,35,000

    Dwapara Yuga Pada 1

    4,32,000

    4,35,000

    8,67,000

    Treta Yuga Pada 3

    4,32,000

    8,67,000

    12,99,000

    Treta Yuga Pada 2

    4,32,000

    12,99,000

    17,31,000

    Treta Yuga Pada 1

    4,32,000

    17,31,000

    21,63,000

     

    I request that, if
    you hold the software, try reverse feeding by giving the date in your book, it
    should give the correct planetary position. Please try by feeding the date I
    assessed i.e., 17,55,114 BC and check the planetary position. 

     

    One more precaution
    is that while astrologers believe that a Jataka Chakram will not repeat in
    6,59,60,87,640 years; some believe that it will not repeat in the entire period
    of 4 Yugas with 10 padas of 4,32,00,000 years; some others believe this rule is
    limited to one pada only. It is beyond my capacity to verify the fact. This may
    be possible for you to verify if your software permits you to enter a 7 digit
    figure for year. I feel that 5114 and 17 in the left hand side may be correct
    and I doubt the figure 5 in between. You may try 1 to 9 and check the
    results. 

     

    You may contact me
    for any clarifications and I would be thankful if you could share any further
    information on this.

     

     

    With Regards,

     

    B.V.Audinarayana 

    Email
    bandaruva@gmail.com 

    • Anonymous

      Amazing information! Thank you very much for sharing this with us.

    • Anonymous

      Yes, I do have the software with me, even though the work mentioned above was not by me, but by Sri Pushkar Bhatnagar. Will try out your suggestions in the software.

    • http://www.facebook.com/neelakantan.iyer1 Neelakantan Iyer

       hats off to ur research. can i know the name of the software u have used and where can i get it from?

  • Krishna Dwaipyana :)

    Rama is believed by Hindus to have been born in 7323 B.C.E. according to Wikipedia in the end of treta yuga.
    If you read this http://www.ebooksread.com/authors-eng/sardar-of-bhadour-attar-singh/sakhee-book-or-the-description-of-gooroo-gobind-singhs-religion-and-doctrines-hci/page-4-sakhee-book-or-the-description-of-gooroo-gobind-singhs-religion-and-doctrines-hci.shtml Sakhee 15th it gives some clues to prophecies from Vedas according to Guru Nanak. We can see who is Daleep Singh from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalip_Singh_Sukerchakia and may be Budan is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babur mahemmedan is mohammed. He goes backwards and forwards in his prophecies throughout the paragraph. So 1000 yrs may be the rule of mohammeds. and reading wiki about kalki we get some more clues.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalki
    To add to that there havent been much time between the avtars of Rama, Krishna and Buddha and they have come whenever there is a fall of dharma and rise in adharma. Isnt the present scenario worse than the times when he had come as the last three avatars.
    I dont know much about all this but the situations and incidences are quite familiar. Even the time when Kalki avtar will happen is quite like the description of modern India.

    I think the time period of 1 human yr by vedas may be different than 365 days. So 432000 yrs of kaliyuga may be less. Or is there something like Golden age waxing and waning.Or there is darkness for some yrs of yuga and then light.
    When the sun and moon, and the lunar asterism Tishya, and the planet Jupiter, are in one mansion, the Krita age shall return. That line is from Wiki. I dont know when that is going to happen.

    I m not an expert on this you might have read more than me. What is your opinion?

  • Swatantra Shama

    It’s OK that the astronomical positions for Jan. 10, 5114 BC matched as per descriptions of birth of Lord Ram (Valmiki Ramayan), but it does not mean that similiar positions would not have occurred prior to Jan. 10, 5114 BC. Considering the specified periods of FOUR YUGA(KALI: 432000, DWAPAR: 864000, TRETA: 1296000, SATYA: 1728000), earlier occurred similar astronomical positions may also be derived through some powerful computing systems. I hope some compatible enough scholar would honestly try this.

    • http://www.hitxp.com Gurudev

      Very true Swatantra Sharma, it is also very much possible that the same astronomical positions repeat over larger periods of time scale. As you said, hope there would be research in that direction as well.

  • sainath

    hey where are all the older comments gone dear…

    • http://www.hitxp.com Gurudev

      Thanks a lot for finding this, else I would have never fixed it :)

  • robert

    Wasn’t  Ram supposed to have lived in the treta yug?

  • Rajnesh

    As per the Hindu Calendar, the number of years in each Yuga are as follows:

    Kruta Yuga 17,28,000 Years
    Treta Yuga 12,96,000 Years
    Dwapara Yuga 8,64,000 Years
    Kali Yuga 4,32,000 Years
    Total (Chatur Yugas) 43,20,000 Years

  • Rajnesh

    Around 20,000 years ago

  • http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hinducalendar A K Kaul

    —– Original Message —–
    From: jyotirved
    To: subash razdan (WAVES-vedic-yahoo forum)
    Cc: pvr@mediaone.net ; vedic_research_institute@yahoogroups.com ; hinducalendar@yahoogroups.com ; indian_astrology_group_daily_digest@yahoogroups.com; hinducivilization@yahoogroups.com
    Sent: Friday, September 11, 2009 2:15 PM
    Subject: Re: Dating of the Ramayana Period

    Dear Subashji,
    Thanks for forwarding me the full text of Shri Purshkar Bhatnagar’s views about his own publication. In fact, a similar post/mail has appeared on several forums!

    “”Vedic astronomers”" have a symbiotiic relation with “”Vedic astrololgers”" and, as such, are hardly any better than them in exhibiting their ignorance of astronomy! And they are flaunting, like a talisman, softwares like Planetarium etc. to show to the whole world as to how ignorant they actually are about their own cultural matters, whether about the Ramayana or the Mahabharata.
    Shri Pushkar Bhatnagar has said in his book, “”Maharishi Valmiki has recorded in Bal Kaand sarga 19 and shloka eight and nine (1/18/8,9) that Shri Ram was born on ninth tithi of Chaitra month when the position of different planets vis-a-vis zodiac constellations and nakshatras (visible stars) were: i) Sun in Aries; ii) Saturn in Libra; iii) Jupiter in Cancer; iv) Venus in Pisces; v) Mars in Capricorn; vi) Lunar month of Chaitra; vii) Ninth day after no moon; viii) Lagna as Cancer (cancer was rising in the east); ix) Moon on the Punarvasu (Gemini constellation & Pllux star); x) Day time (around noon).
    This data was fed into the software. The results indicated that this was exactly the location of planets/stars in the noon of January 10, 5114 BC. Thus Shri Ram was born on January 10, 5114 BC (7123 years back). As per the Indian calendar it was the ninth day of Shukla Paksha in Chaitra month and the time was around 12 to 1 noontime. This is exactly the time and date when Ram Navmi is celebrated all over India”". In several of his earlier posts, Shri Bhatnagar had talked of using “”Planetarium”" software.
    Let us analyze the facts.
    There is a program by P. V. R. Narasimha Rao, (owner, vedic-astrology yahoo groups) named JHora. Its latest version, 7.33 calculates planetary longitudes, lagna, nakshatra etc. from about 5500 BCE to about 5500 AD rather quite accurately. It can be downloaded for free from the internet. Anybody can use in it any Ayanamsha including the “”almighty”" Lahiri or Ramana or even zero, which is euphemistically known as Sayana! 7
    Swiss Ephemeris, that is based on VSOP 87 and also DE/LE data, is as well quite accurate and calculates plaetary longitudes etc. for a similar period. That also can be downloaded free from the web or purhased for a nominal price for professional purpposes.
    Both these softwares tally almost exactly with the Vishnu program in HinduCalendar forum for tithi, nakshatra etc. from 10000 BCE to 12030 AD!

    Following are the “”almighty”" Lahiri details copied from the JHora 7.33 software for January 10, 5114 BCE (-5113 AD) for Ayodhya at Noon, LMT:

    Natal Chart Shri Ram
    Date: January 10, -5113
    Time: 12:00:00
    Time Zone: 5:30:00 (East of GMT)
    Place: 82 E 12′ 00″”, 26 N 48′ 00″”
    Ayodhya, India
    Altitude: 0.00 meters

    Lunar Yr-Mo: Parabhava – Phalguna
    Tithi: Sukla Sapthami (Sa) (48.25% left)
    Vedic Weekday: Thursday (Ju)
    Nakshatra: Rohini (Mo) (62.35% left)
    Yoga: Vishkambha (Sa) (11.29% left)
    Karana: Vanija (Ve) (96.49% left)
    Hora Lord: Moon (5 min sign: Le)
    Mahakala Hora: Moon (5 min sign: Cn)
    Kaala Lord: Saturn (Mahakala: Moon)

    Sunrise: 6:58:32
    Sunset: 17:19:31
    Janma Ghatis: 12.5612

    Ayanamsa: 285-52-47.49
    Sidereal Time: 16:35:26

    Body Longitude Nakshatra Pada Rasi Navamsa

    Lagna 14 Ta 52′ 07.38″” Rohi 2 Ta Ta
    Sun – BK 26 Aq 48′ 32.38″” PBha 3 Aq Ge
    Moon – PiK 15 Ta 01′ 10.38″” Rohi 2 Ta Ta
    Mars – AmK 28 Ar 17′ 42.38″” Krit 1 Ar Sg
    Mercury – AK 29 Cp 18′ 42.32″” Dhan 2 Cp Vi
    Jupiter (R) – MK 18 Le 51′ 39.03″” PPha 2 Le Vi
    Venus (R) – DK 1 Pi 59′ 24.70″” PBha 4 Pi Cn
    Saturn – PK 13 Sc 47′ 26.51″” Anu 4 Sc Sc
    Rahu – GK 22 Sg 16′ 56.06″” PSha 3 Sg Li
    Ketu 22 Ge 16′ 56.06″” Puna 1 Ge Ar
    **** **** ***** ***** ***** *****

    Following are the so called Sayana details as per the same J Hora 7.33 software
    Natal Chart Shri Ram

    Date: January 10, -5113
    Time: 12:00:00
    Time Zone: 5:30:00 (East of GMT)
    Place: 82 E 12′ 00″”, 26 N 48′ 00″”
    Ayodhya, India
    Altitude: 0.00 meters

    Lunar Yr-Mo: Parabhava – Pushya
    Tithi: Sukla Sapthami (Sa) (48.25% left)
    Vedic Weekday: Thursday (Ju)
    Nakshatra: Poorvabhadra (Ju) (18.25% left)
    Yoga: Vyatipata (Ra) (23.08% left)
    Karana: Vanija (Ve) (96.49% left)
    Hora Lord: Moon (5 min sign: Le)
    Mahakala Hora: Moon (5 min sign: Cn)
    Kaala Lord: Saturn (Mahakala: Moon)

    Sunrise: 6:58:32
    Sunset: 17:19:31
    Janma Ghatis: 12.5612

    Ayanamsa: 0-00-00.00
    Sidereal Time: 16:35:26

    Body Longitude Nakshatra Pada Rasi Navamsa

    Lagna 0 Pi 44′ 54.87″” PBha 4 Pi Cn
    Sun – PK 12 Sg 41′ 21.93″” Mool 4 Sg Cn
    Moon – DK 0 Pi 53′ 59.93″” PBha 4 Pi Cn
    Mars – PiK 14 Aq 10′ 31.93″” Sata 3 Aq Aq
    Mercury – MK 15 Sc 11′ 31.87″” Anu 4 Sc Sc
    Jupiter (R) – GK 4 Ge 44′ 28.58″” Mrig 4 Ge Sc
    Venus (R) – BK 17 Sg 52′ 14.25″” PSha 2 Sg Vi
    Saturn – AK 29 Le 40′ 16.06″” UPha 1 Le Sg
    Rahu – AmK 8 Li 09′ 45.60″” Swat 1 Li Sg
    Ketu 8 Ar 09′ 45.60″” Aswi 3 Ar Ge

    *****8 ***** **** ****** ****

    The (Sayana) planetary details as per the Swiss Ephemeris are:
    *** CHART ANALYSIS REPORT ***

    Shri Ram – Male Chart

    DeltaT = +162894s; ET = 3:46:06 am Jan 12 5114 BC; JDE = -146454.342978
    ST(0) = 11:08:42; LST = 16:37:30; Ob = 2410’19”; Eq.Time = -2m33s
    ACD(0h) = Oct 4 5114 BC; ACD(12h) = Apr 5 5114 BC

    CHART ANGLES
    Ascendant 01Pi26’08” Midheaven 11Sg02’58”
    CHART POINTS
    Mon 02Pi29’03”
    Sun 12Sg48’44”
    Mer 15Sc19’34”
    Ven 17Sg48’30” R
    Mar 14Aq15’05”
    Jup 04Ge44’21” R
    Sat 29Le40’55”
    Nod 09Li03’37” R
    SNo 09Ar03’37” R
    *** END REPORT ***

    You can see it for your self that there is not much difference between the Swiss Ephemeris data and that of the latest J.Hora.
    As claimed by Shri Pushkar Bhatnagar, The Valmiki Ramayana, Balakanda 18/8-9 actually says, “”In the meantime six seasons (from the last Vasanta) rolled away after the sacrifice was over. Then on the ninth lunar day of the bright fortnight of Chaitra, the twelfth month after the conclusion of the sacrifices, when the asterism Punarvasu, presided over by Aditi, was in the ascendant and as many as five planets viz. the Sun, Mars, Saturn amd Venus happened to be exalted (appeared in zodiacal signs of Mesha or Aries, Makara or Capricornus, Tula or Libra, Karka or Cancer and Mina or Pisces respectively), and Jupiter in conjunction with the moon appeared in the zodiacal sign of Karka, mother Kaushalya, the eldest wife of Dhasharatha, gave birth to a highly blessed son named Shri Ram, who was no other than the Lord of the universe..”" (Gita Press translation)
    The salient features of the “”Divine”" chart by Shri Pushkar Bhatnagar, however, are:
    1. Janma month is neither Madhu nor Chaitra but the month of Sahasya and Margashirsha/Pausha!
    2. Janma ritu is not vasanta but Hemanta Ritu!
    3. Janma tithi is Shukla Saptami instead of Shukla Navmi!
    4. Janma Nakshatra is either Purvabhadra (Sayana) or Rohini (Lahiri) instead of Punarvasu!
    5. Moon is neither in sayana nor in nirayana Karkata but in either Mina or Vrisha!
    6. Sun is neither in nirayana nor in sayana Mesha but either in Dhanush or in Kumbha!
    7. Lagna is neither sayana nor nirayana Karkata but either Mina or Vrisha!
    8. Brihaspati is neither in Sayana nor in nirayana Karkata but in Mithuna or Simha!
    9. Mangal is neither in Sayana nor in nirayana Makara but in Kumbha or Mesha
    10. Shani is neither in Sayana nor in nirayana Tula but in Simha or Vrischika
    11. Shukra is the only planet that can be said to be in Mina, that also provided that we presuppose hat “”almighty”" Lahiri had incarnated even prior to “”Bhatnagar Ram”" since it is only as per Lahiri Ayanamsha that Shukra is in Mina!
    12 Thus leave alone five planets being either exalted or in their own signs, not even a single planet is exalted or in its own sign!
    And the rest is history, as the saying goes, since if the birth parituclars itself are inaccurate to such an extent, it is futile to go into other details!
    So long live “”Bhatnagar Ram”"!
    And I am sure “”Vedic astrologers”" will continue to delieneate the chart of “”Bhatnagar Ram”" for ages together with correct predictions, since they can make correct predictions only from incorrect data!
    And the billion dollar question that no “”Vedic astronomer”" or “”Vedic astrolger”" can answer is as to how could Mesha etc. Rashis be included in the Valmiki Ramayana if they were conspicuous by their absence in a much later work viz. the Mahabharata, (“”Paroskhya Professor’s”" Brahma Rashi notwithstanding!) as there were no rashis till the advent of Maya the mlechha, again, “”parokshya professor’s”" visualization of spurioius mantra as original in the Vedanga Jyotisha notwithstanding!
    But then people like you and me are helpless in the face of an avalanche of “”proofs”" by “”prominent scholars”", thanks to their “”philosphers’ stones”" like “”Planetarium”" software etc.!

    It also appears that these scholars like Dr. Vartak or “”Parokshya Professor”" or Pushkar Bhatnagar or Prafulla Mendaki etc. etc., have not read the original Valmiki Ramayana at all, since they would have at least given some explanation as to how Shri Ram could have Incarnated in fifth or even seventh millennium BCE, if He is supposed to have ruled for eleven thousand years for this is what the Valmiki Ramayana says, “”Having served His kingdom for eleven thousand years, Shri Ram will ascend to Brahmaloka”" (Balakanda 1/97–Gita Press translation) and “”(Now that You have ruled for eleven thousand years, as desired by You Yourself, You will have now to asend to Brahmaloka”" (Uttarakanda 104/12–Gita Press translation).
    What is most pathetic is the statement by Shri Pushkar Bhatnagar “”The following document is the ‘MOST’ authentic scientific work that does not need further scientific verification.”" Obviously, some of the scholars consider themselves more exalted than the Vedic Seers or even Maharshi Valmiki and would not like their findings to be subjected to any peer review!
    The fact of the matter is that these astrological combinations in the Varlmiki Ramayana and Adhyatma Ramayana etc. are astronomically impossible and are interpolations of a much later date by some good for nothing jyotishi! This will be clear from:
    1. It is practically impossible for anybody to have been or be born in Punarvasu nakshatra with the Moon in Karkata and Navmi tithi, with the sun in Mesha!
    2. Similarly, as per the Valmiki Ramayana Balakanda 18/15-16, “”Bharata of cheerful mind was born when the constellation Pushya was in the ascendant and the Sun had entered the zodiacal sign of Pisces, while the twin sons of Sumitra were born when the constellation Ashlesha was in the Ascendant and the sun had reached the meredian, touching the zodiacal sign of Karkata, i.e. Cancer”". (Gita Press translation)
    Anybody knowing even a bit of astronomy, can immediately see through the blunders committed by those good for nothing jyotishis who made such interploations to prove their jyotisha prowess, that if the sun is in Mesha as in the case of Bhagwan Rama and in Mina in the case of Bharata, the latter is either younger by eleven months or elder by one month to the former, since Mesha follows Mina and not the other way round!
    3. Similarly, if Bharata’s sun is in Mina, and that of Lakshmana and Shatrugna in Karkata, they are either younger than Bharata by four months or elder to him by eight months! However, as per the same Valmiki Ramayana, all the four brothers are supposed to have been born within a gap of a day or two and not several months.

    No “”Vedic astrologer”" has commented on such anachrnosims in the Ramayana, since they would not then be able to make a fool of a common man with such words as, “”Rama was exiled when He had Sade-Sati”" or “”even Bhagwan Ram was separated from His wife since He was a Manglik as He had Mars in the seventh”" and so on!

    But then this is Kaliyuga and that is why Goswami Tulsidas had said, in the Ramacharitamanasa, in Balakanda, 14th Doha:”"Banchak Bhagat Kahai Ram ke, kinkar kanchan koh kama ke”".
    Aakhir paapi pet ka saval jo hai!
    With regards,
    Avtar

    —– Original Message —–
    From: subash razdan
    To: World Association ; Avtar K. Kaul ; namaste bombay ; nfia ; senior citizens program
    Sent: Thursday, September 03, 2009 2:47 AM
    Subject: Fw: Dating of the Ramayana Period

    —– Forwarded Message —-
    From: Krishan Bhatnagar
    To: Undisclosed-Recipient@yahoo.com
    Sent: Wednesday, September 2, 2009 10:55:09 AM
    Subject: Dating of the Ramayana Period

    Dating the Era of Lord Ram :
    Discover the Actual Dates of the Lifetime of Lord Ram

    Pushkar Bhatnagar
    Rupa and Co, 2004, pbk, x, 161 p, 59 Slides, ISBN : 81-291-0498-9, $22.00

    Excerptsâ(The following document is the ‘MOST’ authentic scientific work that does not need further scientific verification.)

    The story of Shri Ram’s life was first narrated by Maharishi Valmiki in the Ramayana, which was written after Shri Ram was crowned as the king of Ayodhya. Maharishi Valmiki was a great astronomer as he has made sequential astronomical references on important dates related to the life of Shri Ram indicating the location of planets vis-a-vis zodiac constellations and the other stars (nakshatras) . Needless to add that similar position of planets and nakshatras is not repeated in thousands of years. By entering the precise details of the planetary configuration of the important events in the life of Shri Ram as given in the Valmiki Ramayan in the software named “”Planetarium”" corresponding exact dates of these events according to the English calendar can be known.

    Mr Pushkar Bhatnagar of the Indian Revenue Service had acquired this software from the US.. It is used to predict the solar/lunar eclipses and distance and location of other planets from earth. He entered the relevant details about the planetary positions narrated by Maharishi Valmiki and obtained very interesting and convincing results, which almost determine the important dates starting from the birth of Shri Ram to the date of his coming back to Ayodhya after 14 years of exile.

    Maharishi Valmiki has recorded in Bal Kaand sarga 19 and shloka eight and nine (1/18/8,9) that Shri Ram was born on ninth tithi of Chaitra month when the position of different planets vis-a-vis zodiac constellations and nakshatras (visible stars) were: i) Sun in Aries; ii) Saturn in Libra; iii) Jupiter in Cancer; iv) Venus in Pisces; v) Mars in Capricorn; vi) Lunar month of Chaitra; vii) Ninth day after no moon; viii) Lagna as Cancer (cancer was rising in the east); ix) Moon on the Punarvasu (Gemini constellation & Pllux star); x) Day time (around noon).

    This data was fed into the software. The results indicated that this was exactly the location of planets/stars in the noon of January 10, 5114 BC. Thus Shri Ram was born on January 10, 5114 BC (7123 years back). As per the Indian calendar it was the ninth day of Shukla Paksha in Chaitra month and the time was around 12 to 1 noontime. This is exactly the time and date when Ram Navmi is celebrated all over India.

    Shri Ram was born in Ayodhya. This fact can be ascertained from several books written by Indian and foreign authors before and after the birth of Christ – Valmiki Ramayan, Tulsi Ramayan, Kalidasa’s Raghuvansam, Baudh and Jain literature, etc. These books have narrated in great detail the location, rich architecture and beauty of Ayodhya which had many palaces and temples built all over the kingdom. Ayodhya was located on the banks of the Saryu river with Ganga and Panchal Pradesh on one side and Mithila on the other side. Normally 7,000 years is a very long period during which earthquakes, storms, floods and foreign invasions change the course of rivers, destroy the towns/buildings and alter the territories. Therefore, the task of unearthing the facts is monumental. The present Ayodhya has shrunk in size and the rivers have changed their course about 40 km north/south.

    Shri Ram went out of Ayodhya in his childhood (13th year as per Valmiki Ramayan) with Rishi Vishwamitra who lived in Tapovan (Sidhhashram) . From there he went to Mithila, King Janaka’s kingdom. Here he married Sita after breaking Shiv Dhanusha. Researchers have gone along the route adopted by Shri Ram as narrated in the Valmiki Ramayan and found 23 places which have memorials that commemorate the events related to the life of Shri Ram. These
    include Shringi Ashram, Ramghat, Tadka Van, Sidhhashram, Gautamashram, Janakpur (now in Nepal), Sita Kund, etc. Memorials are built for great men and not for fictitious characters.

    Date of exile of Shri Ram: It is mentioned in Valmiki Ramayan’s Ayodhya Kand (2/4/18) that Dashratha wanted to make Shri Ram the king because Sun, Mars and Rahu had surrounded his nakshatra and normally under such planetary configuration the king dies or becomes a victim of conspiracies. Dashratha’s zodiac sign was Pisces and his nakshatra was Rewati. This planetary configuration was prevailing on the January 5, 5089 BC, and it was on this day that Shri Ram left Ayodhya for 14 years of exile. Thus, he was 25 years old at that time (5114-5089). There are several shlokas in Valmiki Ramayan which indicate that Shri Ram was 25-years-old when he left Ayodhya for exile.

    Valmiki Ramayan refers to the solar eclipse at the time of war with Khardushan in later half of 13th year of Shri Ram’s exile. It is also mentioned it was amavasya day and Mars was in the middle … When this data was entered, the software indicated that there was a solar eclipse on October 7, 5077 BC, (amavasya day) which could be seen from Panchvati. The planetary configuration was also the same – Mars was in the middle, on one side were Venus and Mercury and on the other side were Sun and Saturn. On the basis of planetary configurations described in various other chapters, the date on which Ravana was killed works out to be December 4, 5076 BC, and Shri Ram completed 14 years of exile on January 2, 5075 BC, and that day was also Navami of Shukla Paksha in Chaitra month. Thus Shri Ram had come back to Ayodhya at the age of 39 (5114-5075).

    A colleague, Dr Ram Avtar, researched on places visited by Shri Ram during his exile, and sequentially moved to the places stated as visited by Shri Ram in the Valmiki Ramayan, starting from Ayodhya he went right upto Rameshwaram. He found 195 places which still have the memorials connected to the events narrated in the Ramayana relating to the life of Shri Ram and Sita. These include Tamsa Tal (Mandah), Shringverpur (Singraur), Bhardwaj Ashram (situated near Allahabad), Atri Ashram, Markandaya Ashram (Markundi), Chitrakoot, Pamakuti (on banks of Godavari), Panchvati, Sita Sarovar, Ram Kund in Triambakeshwar near Nasik, Shabari Ashram, Kishkindha (village Annagorai), Dhanushkoti and Rameshwar temple.

    In Valmiki Ramayan it is mentioned that Shri Ram’s army constructed a bridge over the sea between Rameshwaram and Lanka. After crossing this bridge, Shri Ram’s army had defeated Ravana. Recently, NASA put pictures on the Internet of a man-made bridge, the ruins of which are lying submerged in Palk Strait between Rameshwaram and Sri Lanka. Recently the Sri Lankan Government had expressed the desire to develop Sita Vatika as a tourist spot. Sri Lankans believe this was Ashok Vatika where Ravana had kept Sita as a prisoner (in 5076 BC).

    Indian history has recorded that Shri Ram belonged to the Suryavansh and he was the 64th ruler of this dynasty. The names and other relevant particulars of previous 63 kings are listed in Ayodhya Ka Itihas written about 80 years ago by Rai Bahadur Sita Ram. Professor Subhash Kak of Lousiana University, in his book, The Astronomical Code of the Rig Veda, has also listed 63 ancestors of Shri Ram who ruled over Ayodhya. Sri Ram’s ancestors have been traced out as: Shri Ram, King Dashratha, King Aja, King Raghu, King Dilip and so on.. From Kashmir to Kanyakumari and from Bengal to Gujarat, everywhere people believe in the reality of Shri Ram’s existence, particularly in the tribal areas of Himachal, Rajasthan, Madhya Pradesh and the North-East. Most of the festivals celebrated in these areas revolve around the events in the life of Shri Ram and Shri Krishna.

    The events and places related to the life of Shri Ram and Sita are true cultural and social heritage of every Indian irrespective of caste and creed. Therefore, it is common heritage. After all, Shri Ram belonged to the period when Prophet Mohammed or Jesus Christ were not born and Muslim or Christian faiths were unknown to the world. The words Hindu (resident of Hindustan) and Indian (resident of India) were synonymous.. India was also known as Bharat (land of knowledge) and Aryavarta (where Aryans live) and Hindustan (land of “”Hindus”" – derived from word Indus).

    During Ram Rajya, the evils of caste system based on birth were non-existent. In fact, Maharishi Valmiki is stated to be of shudra class (scheduled caste), still Sita lived with him as his adopted daughter after she was banished from Ayodhya. Luv and Kush grew in his ashram as his disciples. We need to be proud of the fact that Valmiki was perhaps the first great astronomer and that his study of planetary configurations has stood the test of times. Even the latest computer softwares have corroborated his astronomical calculations, which proves that he did not commit any error. Shabari is stated to be belonging to the Bheel tribe. Shri Ram’s army, which succeeded in defeating Ravana, was formed by various tribals from Central and South India…. The facts, events and all other details relating to the life of Shri Ram are the common heritage of all the Indians including scheduled castes, scheduled tribes, Muslims, Christians, etc.

    Prophet Mohammad was born 1,400 years ago. Jesus Christ was born 2,000 years back. Gautam Buddha was born 2,600 years back, whereas Ram was born 7,000 years back. Hence, discovering the details relating to Shri Ram’s life would be lot more difficult as destruction caused by floods, earthquakes and invasions etc., would be far greater. But, should that stop our quest for learning more about our cultural heritage?

    As people of Indian origin, let us all take pride in the fact that the Indian civilization is the most ancient civilisation today. It is certainly more than 10,000 years old. Therefore, let us reject the story of Aryan invasion in India in 1,500 BC as motivated implantation. In fact Max Mueller, who was the creator of this theory had himself rejected it. Let us admit that during the British Rule, we were educated in the schools based on Macaulay school of thinking which believed that everything Indian was inferior and that entire “”Indian literature was not worth even one book rack in England”". If there were similarities in certain features of Indian people and people from Central Europe, then automatic inference drawn was that the Aryans coming from Europe invaded India and settled here. No one dared of thinking in any other way.

    Therefore, there is urgency for the historians and all other intellectuals to stop reducing Indian history to myth. There is need to gather, dig out, search, unearth and analyze all the evidences, which would throw more light on ancient Indian civilization and culture.

  • http://google D.Bheemeswar

    Hey dear ones, do not break your heads with all these calculations, it is redundant and quite useless arguments. Just take the gist of the work. I do not think so any body really following what Rama said or doing any thing that meaningful specially in India. How many people are as Ideal as Rama, forget about it at least as Ideal as Mahatma Gandhi or Sree Ramakrishna or Swami Vivekananda. If Yuga purushas have to take Birth they just take, they know when to take birth and what to do.

    At least now think for the future and develop some culture, do not jump to conclusions like monkeys in Ramayana, who is the greatest Jumper or greater. I am very sorry to state that non.
    Put your creativity on some thing useful to the society, where everybody gets benefited, rather just infighting.

    • Prasanna Rajaram

      May be you are not interested in Astronomy… Rama’s birth date has exposed the world of astronomy and “time” to me. Can we see it that way?

  • lokesh

    i want kow about my life

  • lokesh

    i want konw about my futre date:11/06/1988 time:10:30pm day:saterday

  • Pingback: confessions of an epic indian » Blog Archive » Was Rama born on 10th January 5114 B.C.? The stars say yes!

  • http://www.pinastro.com pinastro

    Good….actually there are many many versions of Ramayana …none seem to be true as the very first version by valmiki was a hugely tainted version of the real ramayana…

    Read on the new version released by Hollywood ….which looks much closer to reality:

    http://pinastro.wordpress.com/2008/04/16/the-great-ramayana-script-continues-to-inspirethis-time-hollywood/

    According to this
    Hollywood being inspired by one of the most compelling stories of all times (which marks the change of man from Hunters to Warriors , Nomads to Farmers , Clans to Empires ) as it has inspired every generation since then

  • Gnana Bhaskar

    It is well know that Lord Rama was of Tretayuga of the 24th Mahayugam. So, four mahayugas have passed by now. While we know the exact details of Rama’s birthday, according to Valmiki Ramayanam, the details correspond to the Tretayuga of 24th Mahayuga cycle. Using the ancient vedic science it is possible of course to compute the number of years since Lord Rama’s birth. To expect archelogical validations of events that far beyond any such methods in my opinion are not of much use.

  • Pratik

    I don’t wanna know DOB of Lord ShreeRam based on modern astronomical Calculations.
    Can anyone tell the date of birth of Lord ShreeRam as per CALCULATIONS BASED ON VEDIC ASTROLOGY?
    It would be really appreciable if anyone could count DOB of Lord ShreeRam as per ANCIANT HINDU VAIDIC ASTROLOGY.

    ANCIANT HINDU VEDIC SCIENCE IS SO MUCH MORE ADVANCED THAT SO CALLED MODERN SCIENCE OF TODAY IS EVEN UNABLE TO UNDERSTAD IT.

    ANCIANT HINDU VEDIC SCIENCE IS THE ULTIMATE SCIENCE.

    JAI SHREE RAM

  • Vijay Kumar Ojha

    Sir
    I watched Zee News. They spoke of “”Sanjeevnee gooliya”" which is of 10000 years only. They are related to Maa Sita. Any comments!!!!

  • http://www.hitxp.com/ Gurudev

    Pratik, that’s interesting :)

  • Pratik Doriwala

    I believe that the God himself has put/is putting some lines somewhere on this blog.

  • http://www.hitxp.com/ Gurudev
  • sainath

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/travel/2008/jan/01/christmasnewyear.liverpool?page=4

    it states as below
    ————————————————————–
    September: Mumbai
    Ganesh has always been non-Hindus’ favourite Hindu deity, as he is most commonly represented in the incarnation of a jolly rotund elephant boy. He is particularly revered by the gay community in Mumbai during his festival in September, because he represents the removal of obstacles and it’s an occasion for them to express themselves as idols are plunged into the sea at Chowpatty beach. Self-expression for gay Mumbai usually comes as it does at Mardi Gras and Pride parades worldwide – in the form of outrageous outfits and pounding disco. Only here, the pink pop songs are given a Bollywood cover version treatment.
    ————————————————–
    ridiculous what they have stated I came to know about this through maharashtra times.
    http://maharashtratimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/2670589.cms

    what a pathetic image is being created ………

    didn’t find proper place hence posted here…

  • http://shanmadham.blogspot.com ghanesh

    Dear All,
    Its a nice discussion on finding Sri Rama’s Birth date based on astronomical factors.
    Here in my view is based on the Yuga age span and few coreleated scientific findings.

    Prehistoric Event of Ramayana – Atleast 18 Milion Years.
    http://www.orkut.com/CommMsgs.aspx?cmm=267889&tid=2557250281424084551&na=2&nst=130
    Ramayana is a Pre Historic event which took place when Dinosours were present on earth. In a deadly confortation King Vibhishana fought agaist Dinasours to protect people on earth. This is after Ravana-Rama war and when ViBhishana was king. Further according to science Man evolved from Monkeys, which is a event atleast 10~20 millions years ago according to scientific research. Ramayana dating based on Kaliyuga(5109)+Dwapara yuga(864000) + Tretayuga (1296000- But Ramavathara happened sometime in middle of Treta yuga) So by simple calculation Rama’s Birth in this 7th Manvantara should be 16~18 Million years.

    Your above finding based on Astronomical confluence is TRUE, as it is the best time at which all the planets and stars constellation were together, But this is cyclic in nature. What i mean by this is this will again happen and Rama’s consciousness would be born in the heart of people again and again. but the Actual events of Ramayana is very prehistoric dating back to evolution of Monkeys and death of Dinosours.

    Cyclinc Nature of time inside time.
    I understtod that the division of age as Satya, Treta, Dwapara and Kali is not only applicable to massive time scale. but also applicable to a SECOND or even the Nano second. thus at any given range of time can be divided into this four divisions. So in each yuga say Satya yuga has internal Satya yuga, treta Yuga, Dwapara Yuga, Kaliyuga.

    In this Kaliyuga we are in Prathama Paadam right now, which is the first span of Kaliyuga. Kaliyuga is literally Machine age and as Kaliyuga advances Machines evolve and appear like humans. Kalki literally means Machine Man. As we advance in Kaliyuga there will be machinism and humanism. Machinism will try to dominate Humanism and this goes on. It would be more unimaginable things which are going to some in deeper parts of Kaliyuga. We in the first phase of Kaliyuga already feel the wrath of the time. As Kaliyuga progresses, It would be a serious machine world.
    Please refer Bhavishya purana, Srimad Bhagavatham and other puranas to get a deeper acumen on this.
    THe Paradox is WE THE HUMANS are the creators of the Machines, Machines would evolve with our mind power and as Kali progresses they would get ruling hand and start evolving themselves.
    :)

    The time spa am talking about is 100000 years. :) lot more time to go. you can choose to stay and partcipate in the harsh world or simply raise your consciousness to God Consciousness and get back to your source – THYSELF.

  • http://www.hitxp.com/ Gurudev

    Thanks for the link Ramana and wish you a happy new year too!

  • Ramana

    FYI: I felt it is interesting article

    http://www.astrobio.net/news/article939.html

  • Ramana

    Wish you all Happy new year!
    Gurudev,
    It is not that you blocked my post that I was upset.
    The day, I feel the information I am getting and information I am giving, serve no purpose , then it is purely waste of time on both sides . I have thick skin as some one attacks me I won’t give up that easily as you have seen my arguments in Moral Vegetarianism .The real question that decides all our participation is “”Time”".

    There are certain principles that govern in science are iron clad.
    The interpretation may vary but not the results.
    For example Law of conservation is rigid principle that governs the science and in turn our world. Now some one claims he read some where that some demigod violated that principle. Now do we all need to spend next 100 posts debating about it? You can apply this logic to Earth is the center of the universe. .In that vicious circle it serves neither religion or science except wasting time and space..

    We all come here for salvation and looking for that ultimate truth through knowledge , through science and through religion. We all serve well if we spend that time wisely.

    Wish you all Happy New year!!!

  • sainath

    my pleasure gurudev :)

  • Vijay Kumar Ojha

    I was going through the earlier blogs and I read in one of the blogs that earlier events were remembered in accordance with the position of the Stars. This system was just brilliant.
    Sage Valmiki has mentioned the position of various stars to depict the date of birth of Shri Ram..is there any mention, in any of the scriptures, of the planetary positions for the Birth of the tenth incarnation of Lord Vishnu ?

  • I=Indian
  • http://www.hitxp.com/ Gurudev

    Thanks a lot sainath for those links :)

  • http://www.hitxp.com/ Gurudev

    Eshwari
    Yes I have seen the photograph too, but since I am not aware of any other actual details about it, I really cant comment much on that.
    As for the punarjanma or reincarnation, Krishna says clearly in Bhagavadgita that “”Just like how a man discards worn out clothes and puts on new clothes, the soul discards worn out bodies and wears new ones”"!
    http://www.himalayanacademy.com/resources/pamphlets/KarmaReincarnation.html

  • vijay

    Hello Mr. Pushkar, thanks for replying. I just popped in to add a few things. I completely got what you explained above, thanks for that.

    I shall put in calculations some of things that you mentioned:

    cancer spans around 18 degrees and moon stays in cancer for around 30 hours. Hence 1 degree in cancer is passed by moon in around 1 hour 40 minutes. (1.66667 hours).
    Now as we have 1 part of punarvasu + 4 parts of pushya + 4 parts of ashlesha (total of 9 parts of nakshatras) in cancer, 1 part of punarvasu corresponds to 18/9 = 2 degrees (instead of the usual 3.333 degrees). Hence moon stays in punarvasu for 2 * 1.6667 hours = 3.3333 hours = 3 hours 20 minutes. From this calculation also we arrive at 10 am as the time when moon passes punarvasu.

    But the interesting part is when you said that:
    “”Even in the case of Nakshatras, these stars are expected to be 13.33 degrees apart from one another. But in the sky they are randomly spread so none of them is separated exactly by 13.33 degrees from the next one. Some are just 10 degrees apart while others are as much as 18 degrees away from the previous Nakshatra.”"
    This might be the answer to my question, i.e., if punarvasu nakshatra spans more than 13.333 degrees and pushya and aslesha span less than 13.333 degrees each, and somehow finally add up to 18 degrees. Is this true, can you please verify the facts for me if whether pushya and aslesha indeed span very less than 13.333 degrees each? Can you also please give me the details of how much each nakshatra spans. I found this particular link, wherein they give the distance between stars in degrees, most are around 13.333 degrees, but as you said the minimum is 8 degrees and maximum is 22 degrees:
    http://www.vedicastronomy.net/stars_karkataka.htm

    ————————————————————————————————————–

    In one of the links I found this para, which probably is the root of all this confusion:
    “”The signs of the zodiac do not necessarily coincide with the actual constellations for which they are named. Because of the division of the zodiac into 12 signs of 30 each; due to various specifications for the boundaries of the constellations; and especially due to the precession of the equinoxes for the tropical system of coordinates, the constellations should not be confused with zodiac signs. As described above, due to precession the tropical signs have moved away from their corresponding constellations, so that today, the beginning of the tropical sign of Aries (defined as the position of the Sun on the vernal equinox) lies somewhere within the constellation Pisces.”"
    It says that sun in astrological zodiac lies in aries from april 14th to may 14th, wheres as in astronomical zodiac (constellation) sun lies in aries from april 19th to may 14th. This is the main cause for all the confusion. In panchangas, aries starts on around april 14th every year, and sun stays in all zodiac signs for almost 30 days each. But in constellations (astronomical zodiacs) sun stays in aries for 25 days, taurus for 38 days, ………. and in fact in scorpio for 7 days. Hence the boundaries of zodiacs defined by astrological methods and by constellations in sky in completely different. The software follows the astronomical zodiac boundaries (constellations) (hence its meaningless to say each zodiac is equally spanned over 30 degrees each, which we agree). Hence the software shows that moon stays in cancer for 30 hours instead of the usual 54 hours.

    In fact panchangs (books where calculations are based on astrological zodiac boundaries) show me that moon stays in cancer for approximately 54 hours and not 30 hours, and also that sun stays in each zodiac for approximately 30 days.

    For example, I just put in my DOB, and saw that the software shows that Venus is in Taurus, while my Venus is in Gemini at 7 degrees, according to astrological softwares. There is incompatibility between astrological softwares and astronomical softwares due to these differences in defining the boundaries.

    So, the most important question is whether Valmiki was talking about astrological zodiac boundaries or astronomical zodiac boundaries. Since the astronomical zodiac boundaries were defined recently, and since ages people in India have been following the astrological zodiac boundaries, its very normal to accept that Valmiki was indeed talking of astrological zodiac boundaries (he also talks of chaitra month and grahas in uchha/exaltation position, hence he was using the astrological method in defining the position of planets)
    Even if we assume he was talking of astronomical zodiac boundaries, the above calculations which I showed put questions rather than answers.

    Thanks,
    Vijay.

  • vijay

    Abhilash,

    I completely understood what u said, there is nothing wrong in what u say, infact being science students we need to take your path. But the filtering process is very dangerous, i.e., who is going to do the filtering, is the filtering going to be done logically/scientifically, or is it going to be biased, when should this filtering be done, how much should be filtered. Isnt filtering a very delicate and dangerous process. For example, I agree with you when you say that the author may be poetic and might have added some extra pieces like the ten heads of ravana, symbolizing his bad characters, etc. But how can we determine if things like pushpaka vimana, ravana living for thousands of years are actually not true but just poetic/fantasy in nature. There are huge grey areas, which are easily questionable by non-hindus, in fact by many hindus. There is absolutely no way one can convince such people by any smart argument. Hence I recommended that those who believe in these epics, atleast such people should take them as it is, rather than taking the path of dangerous filtering or interpretations that infact change the original meaning/story. Anyway you hit the most interesting point which we never debated here, fantastic man.

    I think this might be my last post for some weeks/months to come. I need to concentrate on my work. I just popped in to reply to your interesting comment. Keep up the good work mate.

    As I have been saying all along, we have just begun scraching this Gold mine thanks to Gurudev’s forum, maybe we can take home something positive from all this debate and can hopefully induce/educate others towards the true history of India. Vande Mataram.

    Cheers,
    Vijay.

  • Pushkar Bhatnagar

    Vijay

    You want me to reply to this:

    “”So, now coming back to the start of moon at 6.30 am on 10th, if we go by the true speed of moon of about 24 hours for 1 nakshatra (13.33 degrees), then, as 30 degrees = 54 hours, then as per this calculation moon should end cancer at noon of 12th. But as you have seen yourself, moon is almost in the middle of leo on noon of 12th. This is completely against belief, as moon should have been indeed in end of cancer at this time (noon of 12th). So how is this possible.”"

    I had already told you where the problem was in your computation in my earlier two posts. In this message I thought you have just explained what caused misunderstanding in your mind. I never thought you wanted me to explain this.

    In my two messages of 23.12.07 & 24.12.07 to you, I had clearly mentioned that it is a matter of fact that in the sky the zodiac constellations do not span exactly 30 degrees. Cancer is just 18 degrees in span while Pisces is about 36 degrees in span.

    Now, your software produces a replica of sky view on your computer. It shows Cancer constellation spanning only about 18 degrees in the sky, as it should be because that is it’s exact spread in the sky.

    Now please look at your question.

    On 10th January at 6.30 a.m. moon comes into CANCER. Fine. The moon should take 54 hours to go through one zodiac. But this is true only if the zodiac is 30 degrees in span. Therefore, only if the CANCER zodiac was actually 30 degree of span in sky, moon should have come out of Cancer at 12.00 noon of 24th. But actually, you find that it was in Leo at this time. The answer is simple, it is because CANCER is only 18 degrees in span. Moon crosses it in just 30 hours rather than 54 hours. That is why when you look at position of moon at 12 noon on 12th Jan., it is seen Leo and not Cancer. The 30 degree span from the begining of boundry of CANCER ends in the middle of LEO constellation. The boundry of CANCER ends at just 18 degrees from its begining.

    Even in the case of Nakshatras, these stars are expected to be 13.33 degrees apart from one another. But in the sky they are randomly spread so none of them is separated exactly by 13.33 degrees from the next one. Some are just 10 degrees apart while others are as lmuch as 18 degrees away from the previous Nakshatra.

    These are the bare facts of astronmy.

    Anyway, I also want to thank you for all that lively debate. May god bless you in all your endeavours in life.

    Pushkar

  • Abhilash Menon

    Hi Vijay,

    I admire you for your persistence to seek knowledge and your loyalty to your beliefs. As you said, nothing is black and white. Thanks God!!! If it were so, how boring life would have been ;)

    I just wish to say that I cant really agree with your statement,
    So, we either believe in all this or dont believe. We cant just believe in Lord Ramas existence and forget about pushpaka vimana, or that ravana met Parashurama long back before Rama was even born.

    My question is Why cant we?. You are restricting yourself and others to just 2 options. Take all or leave all. :D Why shouldnt we try to do something in between? I feel we should filter out the points that could be mere fantasy (put in using poetic license) and keep ones with historical value only and do our study on those.

    Now the question is what is the criteria to do the filter? For this I think we have no choice but to rely on the current scientific knowledge. We know that we have not reached the pinnacle of scientific knowledge (probably we may never do). But we cannot use the future science to do our filter due to the simple fact that we dont know anything about it. ;) We cant use the past science either as it is obsolete. So we use the current science, however incomplete it may be (or if possible, we can improve science with our new discoveries / inventions valid ones, of course). When science improves in the future, we may change our viewpoints also. Then may be Pushpak Viman would not be a laughable matter anymore. ;)

    Why should we do any filtering? Because, since most of our texts are poetic in nature, the poet might have used exaggerations to suit the entertainment requirements of the contemporary readers. Then there is this possibility – which has become somewhat like my trademark ;) Redactions!!! Due to various reasons people during different epochs may have found it necessary to give different perspectives to the epic. However we cant completely discard the epics as fantasy because the poet mentions that these are Ithihas and these epics have been part of our culture for thousands of generations. So we are obliged to find out the truth.

    PS: I dont agree totally with Gurudev on his viewpoints on the theory of evolution. I shall however post my comments on the relevant blog when I have a little more spare time.

  • Vijay Kumar Ojha

    Vijay
    In one of the blogs earlier Pushkar Bhatnagar has given more or less a similar justification in regarding the mistake in calculations of the Yugas.
    The interesting fact is that if you go by the calculations of Swami Sri Yukteshwar Giri 5114 BC is Treta Yug ! So what Swami Sri Yukteshwar Giri has written in 1894 is more or less being agreed by the findings of Pushkar Bhatnagar.
    The theory of a companion star causing an eclipse and preventing cosmic light can be challenged on the ground that an eclipse cannot last for a thousands of years (the period of Kali Yug ).
    I really marvel the amount of effort you are making to find out the truth. Some of the blogs are really fantastic and very educating for people like us.

  • vijay

    Hello Mr. Pushkar,

    Yes, I would like to agree to disagree over the matter of system of yugas. Because all that is written in the texts and all that we try to interpret is very grey indeed, nothing is black and white. Scientifically if one argues, there cant even be a story such as Ramayana or Mahabharatha. Dont you think so? The scientific community laughs at the concept of Pushpaka Vimana (though they are realizing that such things are quite advanced in science), animals talking, Ravana meeting Lord Shiva at Kailasha, Ravana lifting Kailasha Parvata, Ravana living thru thousands of years (fighting with karthyaveerarjuna, meeting parashurama), Krishna having Sudarshana chakra, Duryodhana getting body of Diamond with the help of his mother’s eyesight, Pandavas and Karna born with the help of only mantras, Different types of demons, Lord Hanuman growing in size, and many many more such things. So, science as it is of now, cannot explain all this. So, we either believe in all this or dont believe. We cant just believe in Lord Rama’s existence and forget about pushpaka vimana, or that ravana met Parashurama long back before Rama was even born. The evolution theory and the genetic mutant theory is just in its infancy. The great human genome project has ended just a few years ago, and still geneticists are struggling to determine which gene causes what biological process, which gene interacts with which other genes. To the outer world, it may feel as though science (genetics) has made huge advances, but its a known truth inside the community of geneticists that we are are just in the ABCD of this science. Also the evolution theory is being debated and continuously updated as we speak due to the new fossils that are being retrieved and the advances in geological sciences. Once such excellent comment was made by Gurudev in his recent posts where he explained how scientists would debate over the fossils of a cat and get astonished that a small tiger was domesticated by humans long back. That was a very fine example to drive the point of fossil investigations. Hence everything is grey still. Anything is possible. This is where infact I completely endorsed Abhilash’s views that we need to keep our minds open. Hence its very difficult to completely depend on science as it is of today and base our arguments on it. This was the reason for me to just stick with what the texts said. If, say after another hundreds of years, if science can without any doubt prove that the texts were absolutely wrong, then very well, people will automatically reject these texts and stick with science. Anyway, we can definitely agree to disagree and stick to our respective views, until science advances to a level where it can be completely confident of itself and prove all these long held beliefs either completely true or completely false.

    BTW, I read all your comments that you mentioned, they were quite interesting, and as I said above, we can politely agree to disagree.

    Anyway it was nice debating with you Mr. Pushkar, apart from some wayward comments by both of us. Hope we can finally lay those to rest and I wish you all the best in your life and keep up the good work. Also thanks for patiently explaining many things which we didnt know and were happy to get to know, like the precession of equinoxes, etc.

    I am afraid I might have to discontinue my visits here, as I may be very busy for the next few weeks or even months. Lots of work pending and they need lot of concentration. Work is Worship as Lord Himself has said :)

    Also, could you please go thru my post of
    http://hitxp.wordpress.com/2007/09/16/birth-date-of-rama/#comment-7203
    and if possible reply to it.

    Thanks,
    Vijay.

  • vijay

    Thanks Vijay Kumar,

    I am really sorry to not have still read Sri Yukteshwar’s Book. Hence I searched the web and found this link wherein some people discuss his concepts in detail:

    http://www.freedomcrowsnest.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30186

    I hope they cover the main points explained in the book, anyway I shall try to get hold on the book and read it, but as I am out of India, its difficult to get these books here.

    In this link, one of the main paras reads out like this (extracted from the book):

    “” …the sun, with its planets and their moons, takes some star for its dual and revolves around it in about 24,000 years of our earth-a celestial phenomenon which causes the backward movement of the equinoctial points around the zodiac. The sun also has another motion by which it revolves round a grand center called Vishnunabhi, which is the seat of the creative power, Brahma, the universal magnetism. Brahma regulates dharma, the mental virtue of the internal world.
    Yukteswar goes on to explain that the sun’s 24,000 year revolution around its companion star takes the sun progressively closer, and then progressively further away from the mystic center Vishnunabhi. In his system, dharma increases as we approach Vishnunabhi and decreases as we draw away from it. The cycle of yugas takes place twice in each 24,000 year revolution. As the sun recedes from Vishnunabhi, the ages pass in the usual order: Satya, Treta, Dvapara, Kali. As the sun approaches Vishnunabhi, the ages pass in the opposite order: Kali, Dvapara, Treta, Satya.”"

    Sri Yukteshwar’s argument about 24,000 years is very significant as he astronomically is quite precise in estimating this 24,000 years as this is almost equivalent to the precession cycle of 25,765 years. In the same link this is justified as:
    “”According to Fulcanelli and the cross at Hendaye, the alchemical Four Ages comprise the four quadrants of a 25,920 year-long cycle called the precession of the equinoxes. Essentially, the precession of the equinoxes can be explained by the fact that our Earth has a wobble. Like a top spinning on the floor, as it begins to lose momentum this wobble of the Earth takes nearly 26,000 years to unfold.”"
    Hence as far as this period of approximately 24,000 years to complete one cycle of precession is concerned, Sri Yukteshwar is right. But after this he suggests his own theory that this cycle is itself the one that determines the cycle of yugas. He assumes a Vishnunabhi (a kind of center to this sun’s motion) and assumes it to be Brahma’s energy (or center of galaxy) and proposes that when the sun comes close to this Vishnunabhi, there is satya yuga and when it is far away it is kali yuga, and hence further explains that after descending kali yuga it is ascending kali yuga. As you can see this is just a theory proposed on the basis of astronomical points, and does not explain why this sun’s motion is related to goodness or badness on earth. Infact Dr. David Frawley who is well-versed with this theory finds it difficult to digest, and suggests that this cycle is infact a part of the bigger cycle of yugas of 43,20,000 years, which is the traditional view. Infact he goes on to say that Sri Yukteshwar doesnt explain many things including the manvantara’s and kalpa’s. He says “”Unfortunately, a 24,000 year orbit would make only a negligible difference in our sun’s distance from the galactic center, which is at a vast remove from us. Presumably because of this, Frawley abandons Yukteswar’s notion that it is our varying distance from Vishnunabhi that causes the cycles of yugas. Instead, he posits that our companion star is a dark star, and when it passes between us and Vishnunabhi, tends to eclipse some of the cosmic light from that source, thus causing the decline into the less inspired ages like Kali Yuga.”" Hence people are still trying to justify this theory of yuga system from different angles. Its difficult to yet say who is an authority over explaining this theory.

    The most interesting part for me is when Sri Yukteshwar justifies the theory by giving a very vague explanation as to why in the first place divya years came into picture. He says that:
    “”The position of the world in the Dwapara Sandhi era at present (A.D. 1894) is not correctly shown in the Hindu almanacs. The astronomers and astrologers who calculate the almanacs have been guided by wrong annotations of certain Sanskrit scholars (such as Kulluka Bhatta) of the dark age of Kali Yuga, and now maintain that the length of Kali Yuga is 432,000 years of which 4994 have (in A.D. 1894) passed away, leaving 427,006 years still remaining. A dark prospect! And fortunately one not true. The mistake crept into almanacs for the first time about 700 B.C. during the reign of Raja Parikshit, just after the completion of the last Descending Dwapara Yuga. At that time Maharaja Yudhisthira, noticing the appearance of the dark Kali Yuga, made over his throne to his grandson, the said Raja Parikshit. Maharaja Yudhisthira, together with all the wise men of his court, retired to the Himalaya Mountains, the paradise of the world. Thus there was none in the court of Raja Parikshit who could understand the principle of correctly calculating the ages of the several yugas. Hence, after the completion of the 2400 years of the then current Dwapara Yuga, no one dared to make the introduction of the dark Kali Yuga more manifest by beginning to calculate from its first year and to put an end to the number of Dwapara years. According to this wrong method of calculation, therefore, the first year of Kali Yuga was numbered 2401 along with the age of Dwapara Yuga.”"

    Courtesy:
    http://www.indiadivine.org/audarya/vedic-astrology-jyotisha/299721-re-sri-yukteswars-opinion-mahabharata-kali-yuga.html

    This is a very vague justification for such a path-breaking theory ;)

    Infact there are many interpretations of the yuga system by Alain Danielou, Rishi Singh Gerwal, etc, which at the end of the day are just theories and interpretations of what the original sacred-texts said. One can infact go on to question these sacred-texts themselves, but that is a personal choice and cannot be imposed on the general public as such.

    Thanks,
    Vijay.

  • Eshwari

    Hi,

    I appreciate all those who have taken this trouble to give us knowledge on “”Ramayana”"…I wud like to ask a question …recently I found a photograph of Hanuman Lord saying that it is the true pic of Hanuman..is this true…pls explain..also if possible pls let me know about where i can get the details of the concept of “”punarjanma”".

    Regards
    Eshwari

  • Pushkar Bhatnagar

    Vijay

    Good that now you have read all this in Mahabharata. I appreciate the pain you have taken to tell the details of span of yuga in two messages above.

    Now, just see my message of 27.11.2007 (comment no. 5958) addressed to Gurudev, wherein all these details have been given by me in exactly the same manner !! (Quoted from Purans).

    Now the question is – If it is mentioned that Treta Yuga was 12,96,000 years long – does it become a gospel truth, just because it is written like this there. If you say YES, since it is written like this, we have to accept it blindly, matter ends here. If we have to check the veracity of the text, we need to examine it from various angles.

    In the same message 27.11.07, I have pointed out how this theory is contradictory to the verses of Rig Veda. I have quoted the Rig Veda verses for ready reference.

    How do you react to the questions I raised by me in that message and a subsequent message on the same topic, #5959 of 27.11.07 and message #6532 of 10th December wherein I pointed out that cyclical nature of this concept is self contradictory.

    Once we deal with it, then we can look at other issues like how this concept stands the scrutiny of scientific knowledge about – timeline for evolution of man; time of formation of earth and the date of first Kalpa; genetic process involved – particularly the mutation of gene that governs the age of man; survival of civilizations through Ice ages; hominids and Neanderthals being the carrier of our civilization from the past etc.

    My request, do not be overwhelmed by reading only the spans of yuga. Read this concept in its entirety. There is a lengthy discussion about the features of society that existed in different Yugas. The number of kings, their names, that ruled during that period are given. You may like to find out whether these kings were humans or Gods because if they lived for 35000 years – 50000 years they must not be normal humans. If it was so, were they specially born, out of some special genetic species or made king out of normal population of human beings. Such a reading will give you a holistic view in thrashing out the issues in an analytical manner.

    Pushkar

  • Vijay Kumar Ojha

    Vijay
    You have nearly hit the bulls eye. I do not agree with the Daivya years. It was a mistake which has come on the on set of Kali Yug. Vijay please read “” The Holy Science”" by Swami Sri Yukteshwar Giri.
    Regards
    Vijay Kumar Ojha

  • sainath
  • vijay

    To supplement the above verse Stephen Knapp (Sri Nandanadana Das) further writes:

    “” However, when explaining the various measurements of time, the Vishnu Purana (Book One, Chapter Three) and the Srimad-Bhagavatam (3.11.19), along with the Bhagavad-gita (8.17) and the Vayu Purana (Chapter 57) and others, such as the Mahabharata as quoted above, all agree on the measurements of the durations of the yugas, as explained below.

    In the explanations of the measurements of time found therein, one cycle of the four yugas together is 12,000 years of the demigods, called divine years. Each of these years is composed of 360 days, and each of their days is equal to one human year. So Krita-yuga is 4000 divine years in length, Treta-yuga is 3000 divine years in length, Dvapara-yuga is 2000 divine years in length, and Kali-yuga is 1000 divine years long, with the addition of the conjoining portions of the Sandhya and Sandhyansa.

    In this way, each yuga is preceded by a period called a Sandhya, which is as many hundred years in length as there are thousands of years in that particular yuga. Each yuga is also followed by a period of time known as a Sandhyansa, which is also as many hundreds of years in length as there are thousands of years in the yuga. In between these periods of time is the actual yuga. Therefore, we have:

    Krita-yuga = 4000 divine years, Sandhya = 400 divine years, Sandhyansa = 400 divine years. Total = 4800 divine years x 360 days = 1,728,000 human years.

    Treta-yuga = 3000 divine years, Sandhya = 300 divine years, Sandhyansa = 300 divine years. Total = 3600 divine years x 360 days = 1,296,000 human years.

    Dvapara-yuga = 2000 divine years, Sandhya = 200 divine years, Sandhyansa = 200 divine years. Total = 2400 divine years x 360 days = 864,000 human years.

    Kali-yuga = 1000 divine years, Sandhya = 100 divine years, Sandhyansa = 100 divine years. Total = 1200 divine years x 360 days = 432,000 human years.

    This equals 4,320,000 human years in one cycle of the four yugas together, and 1000 cycles of these yugas equals 12,000 divine years and 4,320,000,000 human years in a day of Brahma.

    It is also explained that Kali-yuga began with the disappearance of Lord Krishna from the planet. This has been calculated to be 3102 B.C.. Since Kali-yuga is described as being 432,000 earth years in length, with 5,000 years and more already passed, then the age of Kali-yuga has approximately 426,000 more years to go. I hope this has clarified what is sometimes a confusing issue.”"

    Courtesy:
    http://www.dandavats.com/?p=3576

    Hence I hope this clarifies that yugas are in lakhs of human years and not the way Sri Yukteshwar Swami has interpreted ;)

  • vijay

    Hi Gurudev,

    I am reproducing the translation (can you plz get the original verse here) of section 231 of shanti parva of Mahabharata here. They make it clear what divya years mean years of GOD and that is different from normal human years, and that indeed each yuga is in lakhs of years:

    “”Vyasa said, ‘Only Brahma, which is without beginning and without end, unborn, blazing with effulgence, above decay, immutable, indestructible, inconceivable, and transcending knowledge, exists before the Creation. 2 The Rishis, measuring time, have named particular portions by particular names. Five and ten winks of the eye make what is called a Kashtha. Thirty Kashthas would make what is called a Kala. Thirty Kalas, with the tenth part of a Kala added, make what is known as a Muhurta. Thirty Muhurtas make up one day and night. Thirty days and nights are called a month, and twelve months are called a year. Persons conversant with mathematical science say that a year is made up of two ayanas (dependent on sun’s motion), viz., the northern and the southern. The sun makes the day and the night for the world of man. The night is for the sleep of all living creatures, and the day is for the doing of action. A month of human beings is equal to a day and night of the Pitris. That division (as regards the Pitris) consists in this: the lighted fortnight (of men) is their day which is for the doing of acts; and the dark fortnight is their night for sleep. A year (of human beings) is equal to a day and night of the gods. The division (as regards the gods) consists in this: the half year for which the sun travels from the vernal to the autumnal equinox is the day of the deities, and the half year for which the sun travels from the latter to the former is their night. Computing by the days and nights of human beings about which I have told thee, I shall speak of the day and night of Brahman and his years also. I shall, in their order, tell thee the number of years, that are (thus) for different purposes computed differently in respect of the Krita, the Treta, the Dwapara, and the Kali yugas. Four thousand years (of the deities) is the duration of the first or Krita age. The morning of that epoch consists of four hundred years and its evening is of four hundred years. (The total duration, therefore, of the Krita yuga is four thousand and eight hundred years of the deities). As regards the other yugas, the duration of each gradually decreases by a quarter in respect of both the substantive period with the conjoining portion and the conjoining portion itself. (Thus the duration of the Treta is three thousand years and its morning extends for three hundred years and its evening for three hundred). The duration of the Dwapara also is two thousand years, and its morning extends for two hundred years and its evening also for two hundred. The duration of the Kali yuga is one thousand years, and its morning extends for one hundred years, and its evening for one hundred. 1 These periods always sustain the never-ending and eternal worlds. They who are conversant with Brahma, O child, regard this as Immutable Brahma. In the Krita age all the duties exists in their entirety, along with Truth. No knowledge or object came to men of that age through unrighteous or forbidden means. 2 In the other yugas, duty, ordained in the Vedas, is seen to gradually decline by a quarter in each. Sinfulness grows in consequence of theft, untruth, and deception. In the Krita age, all persons are free from disease and crowned with success in respect of all their objects, and all live for four hundred years. In the Treta, the period of life decreases by a quarter. It has also been heard by us that, in the succeeding yugas, the words of the Vedas, the periods of life, the blessings (uttered by Brahmanas), and the fruits of Vedic rites, all decrease gradually. The duties set down for the Krita yuga are of one kind. Those for the Treta are otherwise. Those for the Dwapara are different. And those for the Kali are otherwise. This is in accordance with that decline that marks every succeeding yuga. In the Krita, Penance occupies the foremost place. In the Treta, Knowledge is foremost. In the Dwapara, Sacrifice has been said to be the foremost, In the Kali yuga, only Gift is the one thing that has been laid down. The learned say that these twelve thousand years (of the deities) constitute what is called a yuga. A thousand such yugas compose a single day of Brahman. 3 The same is the duration of Brahman’s night. With the commencement of Brahman’s day the universe begins to start into life. During the period of universal dissolution the Creator sleeps, having recourse to yoga-meditation. When the period of slumber expires, He awakes. That then which is Brahman’s day extends for a thousand such yugas. His nights also extends for a thousand similar yugas. They who know this are said to know the day and the night. On the expiry of His night, Brahman, waking up, modifies the indestructible chit by causing it to be overlaid with Avidya. He then causes Consciousness to spring up, whence proceeds Mind which is identical with the Manifest.”"

    I also happened to glance thru section 232, and its amazing how the formation of earth and the other elements are described. Its very interesting, please go thru it. I am regretting why I didnt read Mahabharatha as it is before.

    Courtesy:
    http://www.mahabharataonline.com/translation/mahabharata_12b058.php

  • Nitin

    I=Indian, I had done my due diligence before posting my
    query. If you search the thread above, you will see a couple
    of people talking about “”Holy Science”", but no one taking
    them seriously. I wanted to revive this topic. The reason
    being that some of the above discussion is this thread is
    dependent on what is the length of a Yuga.

    Also, I said about not quoting the Vedas, because Swami
    Yukteshwar was well versed in the Vedas and he interpreted
    them in a particular manner to come up with his conclusion.
    Quoting vedic verses in this thread is useless, since neither
    you (i guess), nor me is competent enough to understand
    vedic sanskrit and it’s complicated meanings.

    The other reason why I am interested in the Yuya cycle is
    that there is Greek and Mayan texts that refer to something
    like a golden year (about 25000 yrs). The ~25000 yr period
    would correspond to a complete Yuga cycle,
    if 1 Deva year == 1 solar year. If you are interested, pick
    up a copy of “”Lost star of myth and time”". It shows how
    various ancient cultures actually talked about very similar
    things in terms of life, sustenance and human cycle.

  • Abhilash Menon

    Gurudev,
    Good! Now we agree on all points pertaining to this article (Birth Date of Rama).

    We agree to disagree on Darwin’s Evolution Theory :D Let me read your other articles about evolution that you mentioned in the above post and we shall continue our discussions there.

    Unfortunately my free time would be lesser in the comming weeks so I might be away from your blog for a long while. Its hard to manage profession, reading and net all at the same time… :( However I shall surely squeeze time then and there to enjoy your wornderful blogs :)

  • http://www.hitxp.com/ Gurudev

    Now thats perfect Abhilash!
    yes thats my real name, many who dont know me personally have said that I call myself Gurudev!

    The reason that we havent found ancient technical peak globally is bcos we have not tried to look for it at all!!! we haven gone well below into the seas and land to those dates. The dates go back when the sea level was very low than today!

    That was a perfect observation about the needed excavation in the regions of vanaras. Unfortunately if you go there today you can see politicians and powerful mafia busy looting natural resources ores and rocks and smuggling them out.. I keep repeating that in India we havent yet done even 0.1% of the required archaelogical research. Take a simple example of the ancient temple so near in the shores of tamilnadu, it was discovered recently only because there was a TSUNAMI which unearthed it for sometime! Same about dwaraka, saraswati river etc.

    Well I never said we have to take at face value what is said in Ramayana, consider it to be suggestions and investigate on those lines, for instance as you said about vanaras, about ramsethu, etc. Again its interesting to note that how greek mythology is taken at face value and search is on for troy , atlantis etc ;)

    evolution as it exists today DOESNOT explain creation of a new species from an existing species. All it says is that some random mutations are the cause. Why and How? No answer. That is definitely not science its complete nonsense. A fish keeps trying to come out of water and an amphibian is born in one of its generations, with a different set of chromosomses, and at the same time another sexual counterpart also for that new species is born at the same time??? Thats just one of the questions.. Its not the unanswered questions that I am objecting about. My primary objection is to the unscientific reply called “”Random Mutations”" creating totally new species and trying to fit everything into it.

    If at all evolution exists, I think its because of some intelligent mechanism that exists within genes themselves, like the way we program AI today, but then who is the programmer for these genes? Thinking genes! But again for these thiking genes to decide on how to change in successive generations, they also require information from the animal’s experience about surroundings and required changes, and this information has to be used while producing gametes. Still a long way to go.

    As of now I dont think evolution will become like Newton’s gravity, instead it looks like it will become like a flat earth theory, but may will hold good for adaptation within species, and definitely not because of random mutations.. I would like to reuse Einstein’s statement in a different context here, ‘God doesnt play dice’, no random mutations please!

    Cosmic intelligence, may be! As of now there is nothing about this either. But this will be music to the ears of the proponents of intelligent design who oppose evolution ;)

    See my post http://hitxp.wordpress.com/2007/06/03/darwins-theory-is-only-about-adaptation-not-evolution/
    http://hitxp.wordpress.com/2007/05/19/an-evolutionary-crisis/

    Finally, its not about taking or not taking a single piece of evidence like Ramayana or not, its all about searching whether there is any proof which contradicts what is thought to be true otherwise
    Yes, we need to research more professionally to look for the truth, by not pre-deciding what the results should be. There is always a thrill in finding something new :)

  • Vijay Kumar Ojha

    I=Indian
    “”The Holy Science”" by Swami Shri Yuketshwar Giri was written in 1894. The book is difficult to understand but the Yuga system is very clearly explained.

  • Abhilash Menon

    Gurudev (Is this your real name?), ;)

    We are just arguing with points that we mutually agree on!!! :D
    I think it is because of my poor communication skills. Let me try to put point by point.

    I didnt mean that Vedic culture was localized. What I said was that if the ancient world had reached the technological levels that we are in today, this most probably was not global else we would have found more evidence for it than the Ooparts.

    Agreed 100% about the symbolism in Ramayana. I believed from the beginning that Vanars were some other hominids or some tribes with monkey as their totemic symbol. But science needs more proof to establish these facts. It cant just infer. Apart from the epic itself how can we prove it as of now? (I am waiting for the day a Homo Heidelbergensis fossil is unearthed from Humpi in the strata 10,000 BCE 5,000 BCE) ;)

    I never meant that modern science has reached its pinnacle (far from it, if there is anything like that). But I believe in the strictness needed to accept something as the truth. An event cannot be considered as history based on an epic poem like Ramayana alone (as I explained in my previous posts).

    I dont agree that evolution theory is all crap. It might not be perfect, especially about the start of life and few other contradictions. Maybe random mutations are not really random, but involve some form of cosmic intelligence or the collective species intelligence. ;) Having flaws doesnt mean that the whole theory is crap. Like the Newtonian gravitation, it will become a special case of a more general theory. Evolution theory is constantly challenged and studied in the academic circles. So it will get better. ;)

    All this is to highlight my viewpoint that Ramayana alone cannot be treated as solid proof to accept some thing as history. However due credit should be given to the events and figures mentioned in it and should be researched more to find real undeniable evidence.

  • I=Indian

    Nitin
    This subject has already been discussed here. Please go through the chain of comments.

    By the way, why are you saying “”dont refer back to any shlokas of the Upanishads and Vedas”"? Vedas override the book of 1940s that you have said, not the other way round.

  • Nitin

    Interesting discussion folks.

    I am wondering if anyone here has read the “”Holy Science”"
    by Swami Yukteshwar, a 1940s publication. In this book, the
    Swami postulates that each Yuga was hundreds of years
    and not lakhs of years. He says that the factor of 360
    is actually flawed.

    Let me take a step back and say that I haven’t read the
    book (I do plan to), but this was the quick summary. Swami
    Yukteshwar was a great swami of his time and I am
    interested in knowing if someone has read the book and
    has comments on the same.

    Please don’t refer back to any shlokas of the Upanishads
    and Vedas (if you haven’t read the book).

    Cheers

  • http://www.hitxp.com/ Gurudev

    Oops!
    I didnt mean we should accept it without evidence. What I meant was in order to find the evidence, first we need to come out of our prejudice of it being a myth :)
    In fact I believe in proving things by continuously trying to disprove it. If what we considered initially is true, then it will continue to prevail till the end, else we will atleast come to know what the real truth is!

    Next, I dont think that the vedic civilization was a localized phenomenon for a number of reasons
    1) The geography mentioned in the vedic texts covers the entire planet. Most people are today not able to relate it because most of these places on earth other than India where the vedic culture still prevails, have got names that sound completely different. Ayodhya is same in India even today, but arctic region is not called Ilavrta Varsha today.
    2) The recent findings of the ancient vedic civilization as far as Russia, how would a localized phenomenon explain it?
    3) The sanskrit findings elsewhere on the planet. The linguistic roots of european languages in sanskrit, how would one explain that? If you consider vedic civilization to a localized phenomenon in India, then we will have to accept out of India theory for this, and start searching for a migration date. We havent known any till todate!
    4) What was the rest of the earth doing in 8000 BCE or 10000 BCE if it was a localized phenomenon here?
    One can go on and on about this!

    Coming back to Science. What is modern science? In 1000 AD earth as the center of the static universe was science. Today the universe has no center and is ever expanding. First we should stop blindly accepting popular theories as being scientifically correct. Its not the information that we have that needs to be scientific, its the process of investigation that needs to be scientific. And that very process of investigation for me is question everything no matter 1000 people saying that it is proved. My question would be where is the proof? I gave an example of evolution to show the inaccuracy of science. Let us be absolutely clear, evolution has ONLY explained adaptational changes within one species, and that is what darwin observed in those islands.
    He extrapolated it to evolution from one species to another and that is where the entire problem lies today. How on earth can RANDOM mutations produce completely new species which are totally perfect? A simple permutation would show it is a process of trillions years, going by pure chance :)
    I am not saying we should not accept science, I am saying we should careful while deciding what is science. Everything in the text books of science is NOT science. Accepting things based on something that somebody has already said without strong evidence is not to be take directly at face value as science. Any theory which has even a single evidence against it has to be considered guilty till proven innocent.

    We can accept gravity to be true, its proven, but cannot accept evolution. So using say for ex, evolution to prove something in epics as wrong would be like bringing in a car mechanic to repair an aeroplane.

    Saying that science has its restrictions would be like defending the shortcomings of current scientific knowledge :) If it is the scientific theory that has to be changed and not the evidence then why not? The problem I see with many scientists is that they try to fit in every piece of evidence into the current existing set of theories, which is simply not the way it ought to be, if something is wrong simply throw it into the dustbin and move on. Take the case of evolution itself, first they thought that birds evolved from dinosaurs, when they found the fossil of Archeopteryx, well fine. But later when they found the fossil of Jinfengopteryx in China which was dated even back than Archeopteryx, and was more bird like THAN Archeopteryx, why still try to fit this into the current evolutionary model? Why cant they simply accept that somewhere something is wrong and investigate into it?

    For me the process of science is not the set of current knowledge that exists in text books. Science for me the answer to all my questions. If there is no answer for some questions, that is fine we can do research about it. But whats not acceptable is, taking theories which they themselves are not yet answering all questions, and using them to disprove other things.

    You got me wrong when I talked about things being symbolic. Its not that we have to be selective and say whatever is scientific is specific, and whatever isnt is symbolic! That would be like what most main stream scientists are busy doing today :)

    What I meant was that lets try to dissect it all by keeping things aside that we are currently not quite sure about, and concentrate on getting things right that we are more confident now. That might well lead to answers in the unknown zone too. If there are 10 things mentioned, and if one is absolutely correct, then we have to look into every aspect of the other 9, even if they look to be wrong now!

    If you can see my earlier posts, you might have observed that I have contradicted myself some times, and that is because I dont stick to my beliefs, it would be like fooling myself. I laugh when people say that I am contradicting myself, if I dont for 20 years then it means I have wasted my 20 years or it means I know EVERYTHING :)

    As for Kapi, it also means tawny colored in Sanskrit! The reason for me saying its not monkeys because vanara is the focus word in Ramayana. Vanara is not used in any other texts to mean monkeys. Valmiki uses the term kapi, while refering to vanaras army describing its members as kapi kunjaraaH meaning elephant sized monkeys! Now what are elephant sized monkeys? Obviously there is nothing like it.
    When we read other parts there are things like kapitam anavastitam meaning like one who cant stay in one place for even a moment, like monkeys.. or nityam asthira-chitta meaning unending fickleness of mind …

    If we write an autobiography of some person who was very naughty and say “”he was like monkey”", and say two millenia later somebody reads it and starts debating, he was actually a monkey!!!! Ignoring other facts that has been said in the autobiography like, he used to speak, read, write, worked as a soldier etc…

    As I said earlier, the problem is in us expecting these ancient texts to be 100% specific to the point!

    Now its upto us to decide whether to accept kapi to mean a simple monkey and ignore the term vanara that is used so extensively, to ignore that they were huge in size, ignore that they used to talk, fight, think, use weapons etc or on the other hand we can try to look into what exactly vanara is or was.

    I know its easy to accept vanars to be monkeys, it was actually a non-Indian who first suggested that vanars might actually be neanderthals :)

    Coming back to Jatayu and Jambuvantha, jatayu is not vulture, its a noun, in sanskrit vulture is called grdhra. Same about jambuvantha, its again a specific name, bear in Sanskrit is called bhalluka.
    The pictures we have of them being vultures or bears is because of the translations and TV serials :) Same about the arrows that collide in the wars, etc.

    What has happened is when people try to read something new, they will try to relate it to things which they already knew, so they will start making approximations, then later those approximations will be accepted as exact things :)

    Let us assume that cats are wiped out of earth today, and we have written extensively about cats being our pets etc. After two millenia when people read our books describing cats, they will start wondering like, people used to have tigers as pets earlier?? Becos assuming tigers are still there , they will relate the description of cats to tigers, lilliput tigers..

    No no, somebody else like me will argue saying, it must have been a different animal which looked like tiger. Come on, the other person will say, look at the description which clearly says it belonged to the tiger family, but used to drink milk and say meow instead of grrrrr! How can a tiger be so small and that too domesticated? Have we seen anywhere a tiger which is smaller than pomerian dogs?? No way, these animals called cats are fictitious, for they are called as tigers and yet arent!!
    We would have used the term both cat as well as tiger family, like vanara and kapi, but what gets highlighted is tiger family, for they wont know how a cat looks like ;)

  • Abhilash Menon

    Gurudeva :D

    Ditto to most of the things you have mentioned. I have never denied those. But you are suggesting that the ancients reached a stage where they could send information to any part of the world within seconds, put man on the moon and possibly Mars, transportation facilities comparable to today, electronics and electrical advances like today, etc. Well could be. I am not vehemently denying it (I feel if such advancement existed, it was more of a localized nature than a global one). But my point is that there is no solid evidence to make those fantastic claims apart from mythology and epics (and maybe some ooparts and archeological oddities). And as I said science cannot take this as evidence.

    I totally agree to the view that the 10 heads of Ravana, etc. were symbolisms. But how can science know that? At some places you want to take the epic literally and at some places as symbolic. Moreover you can give 100 interpretations to symbolism, if you dont know what the author meant exactly. So my point is that science cannot use this as scientific evidence. Even if we know from our hearts that it was as you mentioned in ancient times, scientific brain cannot accept it. It might be due to the way science defines proofs as purely materialistic. But this is how it is. :D

    I am pretty sure I read somewhere that Valmiki uses the term kapi along with Vanara in Ramayana. He also mentions Bear (Jambavan) and Vulture (Jatayu/Sampadi). Somebody who is well versed in the Sanskrit Ramayana, please confirm.

    The concept of evolution may not be 100% accurate but all the evidences (fossils, genetics, etc.) suggest that the probability of it being right is high, agreed that there are many contradictions in it. Maybe it requires more refinement. Any new scientific theory that proves evolution wrong and replaces it as an explanation for creation of life would be the theory of the millennium. ;) (Why did we come to evolution here? Whatever thats a topic in itself. Leave it for some other discussion.)

    I completely agree with the paragraph in your comment starting with We dont have to accept it blindly as truth. :D

    As for ASI and Ramsethu I am reminded of the song It happens only in India. ;) Nowhere else would you see the government degrading a heritage site in such a manner just for some selfish economic gain.

    So my main point here is that science has its restrictions and needs to keep them for its own well being. Instead of asking science to compromise and accept an epic as proof, we need to research more and more and persuade the ASI to shed its idiocy and do real investigations to provide science with undeniable evidence. I am sure one day something has to turn up as evidence because truth has to prevail. :D

  • Vijay Kumar Ojha

    Respected Sir
    I would like to thank Shri Pushkar Bhatnagar for posting that excellent article. The world was considered flat ( as people saw it as flat “”evidence”") until one genius proved it otherwise with experiments.
    We have to strive and educate each other to keep our believes alive till science authenticates our believes. Obviously we do not require proves

  • Gururaj

    the story of Rama poses the most fundamental paradox of human intelligence: which one comes first — reason or belief?

    To evidence the story of Ramayana – you have to believe it is true and search for the evidence.

    If you reason based on the available evidence then it becomes a myth.

    I have a feeling belief comes first, yet I cant reason it out :-)

    However the single biggest evidence of Rama is that he is not only popular in India but through out South Asia — thousands of miles away. How can a fictitious figure be so popular? defies reason. yet in modern times we see fictitious chars like Harry Potter popular through out the world. However the moot question is will Harry Potter be remembered in the future as well: say 50 0r 100 years from now? only time can tell. but yet we can deduce may be with some error that he will not be remembered in the future as only one thing prevails eventually which is truth — the basis of our philosophy “”SATYAMEVA JAYATHE”". I think people often mistake jayathe to mean victory. it actually means to prevail. Truth prevailing is not a mere sentiment of human conciousness but the single most important aspect of integrity of any system that needs to survive.
    so by believing in both “”SATYAMEVA JAYATHE”" and “”RAMA”" we have proved Rama existed :-)

  • http://www.hitxp.com/ Gurudev

    Abhilash

    The very notion of the rise of human civilization being linear is a prejudice that most of us have. This is not the first time that we are seeing science in human history. Humans have had this same brain for the past 1.5 million years or so. It defies every common sense to say that it took 1.5 million years for the same brain to discover what we call science today.

    And moreover we have such immense documentation in the ancient scriptures about the science that we think was discovered or invented only today! It clearly means that we have been reinventing the wheel again and again, thanks to the human civilizational clashes in the form of world wars that have been taking place repeatedly at frequent intervals in the past, every time when a civilization reached its technological peak there has been a large scale war. Mahabharata war is just one such example.

    We have had multiple rise and declines in our past, where humans we first started research, reached technological heights, then destroyed each other using that, then again started from scratch and so on… Sometimes the destruction has not been enough to annihilate completely the current society, and sometimes it has been.. what we today are doing is that we consider only this latest epoch, interpret it to be linear, and try to extrapolate it in the same terms, and when it doesnt match, we write it off :)

    Suppose today there is a nuclear war across the globe and most of humanity gets annihilated, then again everything will start from the scratch and depending on the speed of recovery, in another one or two millenium we will again come back to the science where we are today! There will be another newton, another Einstein, etc who will reinvent the same stuff again.

    The salvation from this chain lies when humans will be able to overcome their fight for supremacy over each other in the name of religion/country/ideology etc and only then will humans be promoted from Type 0 civilizations to higher civilizations. In fact the reason we dont find intelligent life forms else in the universe is not because they dont exist, but because they once reaching technological heights will involve in self destructions using their science and technology and hence will rarely grow beyond their planet.

    In fact our own generation of civilization had numerous just misses on this during the cold war. Today the situation is even more serious. So I think it will be very foolish on our part to think that the ancient people did not build on their science and technology and reach the heights where the west is today. In fact they did so, reached those heights and had great wars after which nothing was left. In nuclear war we know that there are no winners, only survivors.

    Look at the story of Mahabharatha, both the sides were totally annihilated, there was no real victory for pandavas except that they were alive, while their entire army and warriors were destroyed. We can ignore things at the cost of our own knowledge and realization, which is what I meant when I talked about prejudice in the article, aliens in Rigveda :)

    The symbolic of 10 heads etc did exist in those days as do these symbols exist today even in modern science. For instance we talk about 100 horse powered engines. If our civilization is destroyed today and say after another two millenia a new civilization comes into place, even they can infact doubt our automobile engines saying, “”what nonsense, how can 100 horses power a vehicle?”" Ravana was a very very intelligent person whose kingdom had reached technological heights, he had complete knowledge of the vedas, only he had pushpak viman, not Rama, of course 10 heads of his might have been used to symbolically represent the amount of knowledge he had! It need not necessarily be genetics.

    Just because there are symbolic representations we cant rule out it being historic evidence, it doesnt make any sense, It will be like ruling out the history of today in the future, just because today we talk about say for ex missiles called Prithvi and Agni. Cant people in the future ask, prithvi means earth, how can it be a missile? This is exactly what we are doing when we refer to contradictions in the ancient texts where one word meant one thing in one place, and something else in the other place. Well, we know that today mercury is a planet as well as an element. Is that a contradiction? We also know that plasma is in our blood as well as in the stars, now is that a contradiction? :)

    We have to be aware here that the ancient past we are talking about is so ancient that we are disconnected from it completely in terms of linguistic expressions that we use today to describe things and they used then to describe things. The mistake we are making here is to try to fit in everything described in those texts in to the symbols that we are using today, and I am sorry that is not the case.

    About the monkeys in Ramayana, where on earth is it said that they were monkeys? Monkeys are called Kapi or markata in sanskrit, not vanara. Vanara is vana nara, people who lived in the forests, note that almost entire south India then was a dense forest called Dandakaranya, and vanara perfectly fits in into this. Obviously there were physiological differences between manava and vanaras, but they were definitely not monkeys. The problem here is that today vanaras dont exist, and hence we are trying to picture vanaras in terms of somebody or something that we know today, and hence conclude them to be monkeys, as simple as that.

    And then people talk about modern science. Modern science is still incomplete. What it says today, it contradicts a lot of it in the next three four decades. Evolution is still a mystery, just repeating the same lines again and again doesnt make it a truth. How did the human brain suddenly get such a drastic growth in terms of size 1.5 million years ago? How did the cross species evolution take place, its complete nonsense to say it was because of random mutations. Its the biggest joke for me. To put it according to the famous physicist Fred Hoyle, “”believing current theory of evolution is like believing that a hurricane could blow through a junkyard and build a Boeing 747″”!

    I rely more on vedic science for the simple reason that modern science is only about few centuries old, where as
    vedic science as we know was atleast a result of research of few millenia from about 10000 BCE to 3000 BCE.

    We dont have to accept it blindly as truth, but we can definitely verify what it says, for that first we need to understand what it is saying, and most of it does not match the linguistic terminology that we use today. The symbolism of the vedic texts is a lot different from the symbolism of today.

    As for ASI its the biggest joke in the name of archaeology in India. ASI has NEVER done any survey about Ram sethu, it infact said later that Ramsethu does NOT come under its jurisdiction! And yet it had before that filed an affidavit in the court commenting on sethu which it finally withdrew. For me Ramsethu is of a historical heritage site than a religious site, only those who have no respect for the past relics of their country will destroy it. If it were in any other western country, it would have been a famous tourist spot today.
    As for the ayodhya excavations by ASI, to find archaeological evidences of over 7000 years old history, one needs to dig at least 60 meters deep at the historical sites, and our ASI has not gone beyond 5 meters at the Ayodhya site and has declared that there is no proof found!! This is the science we are following in this country today!

    Oh Man! I need a huge budget and lot of time to research into all those things that I want to. To put in simple words, its the worlds most complicated jigsaw puzzle that I am attempting to solve :)

  • vijay

    I=Indian, that was what I precisely wanted to put forth. Most of the verses are FOR the yuga system in Lakhs of years (human years). Hence I consider the theory of hundred years in yugas to be just a theory, or rather an interpretation of the original verses. If you go back to my post, please visit the link that I mentioned where they talk about exact verses from mahabharatha where they clearly show that yugas are indeed lakhs of years and not hundred of years. Its only recently that many interpretations claiming that the present date to be in dwapara yuga ;) have sprung up. Also stories of Ravana clearly show that yuga system is NOT in hundreds of years.

  • vijay

    Perfectly said Gururaj about the world war 2, but I didnt like the comparison of the red army to Rama’ s army ;) Anyway the overall message that you meant about bravery winning wars and not arrogance is undisputable. I was very impressed about the red army’s bravery during WWII. Luck was on their side in the form of 2 horrible winters during which nazis ‘lost’ the battle of stalingrad showing that GOD is always with those who defend themselves from arrogant aggressors.

    Has anyone watched the movie “”enemy at the gates”" depicting sniper fights between the russian hero “”vassili zaitsev”" and a german sniper school master. Its awesome, I would recommend all to watch this movie, its just fantastic direction the way they have shown how good russian snipers were. In fact many claim that these snipers were the turning point of WWII, as they killed the german top brass in hundreds. Its a highly recommended one for anyone interested in WWII. Perhaps Guru can start of with some article on this :)

  • vijay

    Hello Mr. Pushkar,

    Thanks for replying. I think you misunderstood what I meant to say or rather I didnt put it in more clear words as to what I wanted to say.

    By looking at the software I said that moon starts in cancer at around 6.30 am on 10th, which you have verified that it is true (Moon_start.pdf). Next, I said that moon stays in cancer for about 31 to 32 hours which even you saw in Moon_end.pdf. Till now everything is fine. The problem starts now atleast for me. In fact this was my basis for calculating the ‘speed of moon’ in cancer based on this time period of 32 hours. I think you thought that I had claimed that moon’s speed was different from the usual belief :) I calculated this ‘only’ based on what the software showed me, else I very well knew that planets cant change their speeds at each zodiac signs (though some have retrograde motion). I appreciate your good feelings towards me as you directed me to the websites, but I very well know that moon doesnt change speeds in each zodiac sign. But I wanted to draw your attention to show you what the software showed me. Its just against common beliefs that what this software shows.

    So, now coming back to the start of moon at 6.30 am on 10th, if we go by the true speed of moon of about 24 hours for 1 nakshatra (13.33 degrees), then, as 30 degrees = 54 hours, then as per this calculation moon should end cancer at noon of 12th. But as you have seen yourself, moon is almost in the middle of leo on noon of 12th. This is completely against belief, as moon should have been indeed in end of cancer at this time (noon of 12th). So how is this possible.

    Thanks,
    Vijay.

  • Abhilash Menon

    Hi Mr. Pushkar,

    Your comment titled Why Ashoka is history but Lord Rama is a myth was remarkable and very informative. I am sure Gurudev would be delighted to have a person like you commenting in his blog. But even though I agree with some points you have mentioned, I beg to differ with the gist of the article as a whole. My view points are as follows (Of course, these are subject to change in the light of valid counter arguments) :)

    I believe that the ancient Indians had more science and technology during their time than what we give them credit for. But why couldnt they build on it and reach an advanced stage before the west did? I think it was because ancient Indians had no difference (or this difference was somehow lost) between actual knowledge, religious ideas, fantasies and other beliefs (what we call superstitions today). Due to all this being in one pot, actual science could not move ahead and slowly fantasy over took science! :(

    Thanks to these stone hearted, adamant scientists of today, our science and science fiction are separated by a clear border. We have strict procedures to accept something as the truth. This essentially keeps out crack-pot ideas from entering the domain of true knowledge. Everybody hates these academics for their uncompromising attitudes, but I think they are necessary for the well being for science. :D

    Now if history accepts that Lord Ram actually existed based on an epic poetry like Ramayana alone, science also has to accept that long ago, monkeys, bears, vultures, etc could talk consciously with humans and that these animals somehow followed a path of reverse evolution to be in their respective current states. It has to be accepted also that some humans had 10 heads, 1000 hands, etc. and genetics has to explain how those genes were lost from homo sapiens (or that there were other hominids with these traits). If we argue that such points are only symbolic, then the document disqualifies as evidence.

    However history does not exclude all ancient literary works from being taken as evidence. The texts written by people like Herodotus, Chinese travelers, etc. are taken seriously. This is because they are pure travelogues and does not have story telling or poetic elements in them. On the other hand, all rock edicts and ancient writings are not considered as hard evidence. For instance, unlike Sumerian/Akkadian figures like Hammurabi, Enmebaragesi, etc. Sumerian epic hero Gilgamesh is not considered to be a historical figure, even when ancient tablets that mention his name have been unearthed, because of the poetic nature of the epic literary work where he is mentioned.

    Finding material evidences like rock edicts, tablets, pottery, etc. is favored by science because we have the technology to date them, or the strata in which they are found, and prove their antiquity (even though I seriously doubt the effectiveness and accuracy of the current dating techniques like carbon dating). In the case of epics, we cannot prove beyond doubt about the possibilities of redactions by people who lived hundreds of years after the creation of the original epic. So I think history is justified in not accepting epics as evidence.

    Personally, I have no doubt that Lord Ram walked the earth with all his divine glory. But I dont want to mix my faith with science. I am also sure that one day, as science grows, some solid evidence will turn up substantiating Lord Rams existence. I would also like to add that I am in no way siding the ASI in the matter of Sethusamudram. If there is no evidence that Lord Ram existed, there is no evidence also that Lord Ram didnt exist! ASI has to offer solid proof that trillions of people for thousands of generations had believed in a fictional figure. They have to prove that Valmiki imagined a character called Lord Ram and that history cannot accommodate him. By saying Lord Ram didnt exist ASI is naively disrespecting the 7000+ years old culture of a whole country. :(

    PS: I hope I have not hurt the sentiments of anyone. Please dont see this as a denial of faith. I am just pointing out why science needs to be strict. Please also feel free to correct me where I am wrong. :)

  • Gururaj

    Dear Pushkarji,

    that was an excellent article. As long the quest for truth and a belief in “”satyameva jayathe”" remains the future of Lord Rama is bright :-)

  • Pushkar Bhatnagar

    Why Ashoka is history but Lord Rama is a myth

    King Ashoka, the third monarch in the earliest known Indian history is greatly adored by the historians. The British historian H.G. Wells has written: “”Amidst the tens of thousands of names of monarchs that crowd the columns of history … the name of Asoka shines, and shines almost alone, a star.”" The entry of this acclaimed historical personality to the annals of Indian history though, was not very smooth. Although Buddhist literature had preserved the legend of this ruler as a cruel and ruthless emperor who converted to Buddhism to become a benevolent king, historians considered him only a part of the fable because no evidence was available to prove his existence!!
    In the nineteenth century a large number of edicts were found in India, Nepal, Pakistan and Afghanistan, however, these edicts could not be deciphered for a long time. In 1837, James Prinsep succeeded in deciphering an ancient inscription on a large stone pillar in Delhi. Although Prinsep’s decipherment proved that all these inscriptions were of a single ruler yet the identity of the king could not be established because he was termed in the inscriptions as “”Devinam priya – Piyadasi”" (Beloved of God). Finally, it was not until 1915, when one of the edicts actually mentioning the name Ashoka was discovered, that the identification was confirmed. Even today, many parts of the edicts are far from clear in meaning and the numerous translations of them differ widely. Nevertheless, Ashoka the Great could make it to our history because in the courts of modern historians he could successfully produce the evidence that they wanted.

    Lord Rama, however, has not been that lucky thus far.

    Going by the content of the edicts, let us see what is that special information which we know about Ashoka but is not known about Lord Ram? In fact, ask an average Indian on the street and he will tell you more details about Lord Ramas life than the entire information available on Ashoka in his edicts. If one happens to read Valmiki Ramayana, then the comprehensiveness of the description and richness of details can only leave him awestruck. History knows of only two ancestors of Ashoka but Valmiki lists 38 ancestors of Lord Ram. We know nothing about the ancestry of wife of Ashoka but find details of 22 ancestral kings of Janak, father of Sita, in Ramayana. The geographical description of our subcontinent involving the names, location, position, size and extent of the cities, villages, rivers, mountains, deserts, forests is stunningly factual when read in Ramayana. Valmiki has provided minutest details of the culture, traditions and the customs of the society that existed in Lord Ramas times and surprisingly, most of it is still in vogue clearly suggesting continuity of our culture and civilization ever since the era of Lord Ram.

    Any inquisitive mind would like to know why such plethora of information is rubbished by the historians as trash while information of much inferior quality available in Ashokas edicts is considered good enough to recognize him as historical personality.

    Answer is simple. Ashokas is acceptable to historians because information about him is inscribed on rocks but Ram remains a myth because his Ramayana remained inscribed only on the minds of Indians! And I am not making an emotional statement here. Can historians deny that shruti and smiriti was not an established, formal and customary method of transmitting literature and knowledge from generation to generation in ancient India? When Maharishi Valmiki recited Ramayana to Luv, Kush and his other disciples for spreading it far and wide he did something that was the normal practice of that time. He had no idea that at one point of time in future, man will become so obsessed with written documentation that his composition would be considered a mere imaginative fable with mythical characters simply because he could not inscribe the 24,000 verses long epic on a rock. Who knows, he might have left a few hand written manuscript somewhere in his ashram but barring rock, which other forerunner of modern paper like tree leaves, tree barks, primitive paper, cloth etc could have preserved his writings for 7000 years is yet to be understood.

    The comparison above has been made just to bring to focus the myopic attitude of our historians in accepting only archaeological evidence as the proof of existence of someone in history. The archaeologists accept only the remains of some building, structure, edifice, artifact, jewelry, weapon, idol, statue or anything similar made by man as the evidence. Accordingly, it is not surprising that moving backwards in history such evidences dry up completely as we enter a period earlier than 2000 BC. Historians call this as the pre-historic period – a period for which no evidence is available. For them, the non-existence of such evidences indicates that earlier than this period no society existed!

    Is this the appropriate conclusion? Failure to find man made things of period prior to about 2000 BC should logically raise two points. First, have we done enough to excavate such things and are we satisfied with our efforts in searching such objects. Second and more importantly what is the possibility of finding such evidence after such a long time span. We all know that that every man-made thing has a definite life. If we are looking for man made objects of earlier than 2000 BC, we expect such objects to have survived for more than 4000 years. How many man made things can normally survive 4000 years or beyond? Look at the world around us today. None of the man made objects that we see – may it be a building, a bridge, a vehicle, an idol or an ornament will survive till 6000 AD. If the architects of PETRONAS Towers can not certify that this building will endure next 4000 years how do we expect the 4000 years old buildings / objects made with archaic and primitive techniques to see the light of today. In case of Lord Rama this span is more than 7000 years. What do the archaeologists expect to dig out from that era? Are we not trying to catch a mirage?

    For argument sake the existence of Egyptian Pyramids, some of which are dated as early as around 2700 BC, may be cited. However, is it not true that these pyramids are special structures, which are not ordinarily built? If these pyramids are the testimony of a civilization then there must have existed, along with these structures, thousands of other ordinary buildings of the same period but those buildings are not found today. Neither the remains of their inhabitants nor the objects they used in their day to day life are traceable. Out of the entire thriving society, just the pyramids have survived. And because these pyramids have remained standing till today, so has the history of Egypt otherwise it would also have died like that of so many other civilizations, cultures, kings and millions of ordinary persons who lived and died in ordinary course but did not build any pyramid to commemorate their own existence.

    The approach of archaeologists and historians to the question of existence of Lord Rama or Krishna and places associated with these heroes can be succinctly summed up in the words of Dr. H D Sankalia, one of the most eminent archaeologist and considered father of post independence Indian archaeology, as under:

    Frankly, to such queries no answer can be given, unless we have proved the antiquity of these places and found some objects or writings of the times of Rama and Krishna.

    After reading the above statement in a recent newspaper article, I could easily conclude that destiny of Lord Rama as a myth is more or less sealed for ever. The reason being that the necessary proof for Ramas existence should be either an object or writing of his times. So far as writing of his times is concerned, Valmikis Ramayana, despite being the best candidate, is not acceptable because it is not inscribed on any rock. As regards other objects, my reading of Ramayana suggest that there was only one such object – the finger ring of Lord Rama, which Hanuman carried to Lanka and was successfully able to prove the identity of Lord Rama and his own status as a messenger of the Lord to Sita. Perhaps, Lord Ramas name was inscribed on that ring as a proof! That ring remains the only hope. Until we are able to dig out that particular finger ring of Lord Rama and produce it in the court of archaeologists and historians, I am afraid Lord Rama will not be able to make it to Indian history.

    Pushkar Bhatnagar

  • Pushkar Bhatnagar

    Dear Shri Ojha

    In the eyes of archaeologists, the period earlier than 2000 BC is pre-historic period. And pre-historic period is defined as the one for which no archaeological evidence is available!! Do you see the self defeating approach here.

    They very well know that for period earlier than 2000 BC there are no archaeological evidences available and yet when we say that Mahabharata occurred around 3101 BC they want us to prove it with the help of archaeological evidence!!

    In my book I have raised a small point that if archaeology could not establish whether a temple existed at the disputed site of Ayodhya or a Mosque, just 500 years ago, what light it can throw on the times of Lord Rama which I claim to be 7000 years ago.

    I had written an article recently on the same subject. I am copying it below as the next post here. May be it will give you an insight on the limitatons of archaeology in this field.

    Pushkar

  • Pushkar Bhatnagar

    Dear Vijay

    You have requested me to do as under:

    “”I request you to plz refer to the Moon_end. pdf, wherein at 14.00 on 11th, moon is passing out of cancer, and when I put in noon time on 12th Jan, I see moon in leo. That definitely looks totally against normal beliefs.”"

    I have done all that, as you asked me. But what is unusual in it? It is an empirical scientific fact that on a day to day basis Moon moves from WEST to EAST !!

    On 11th January at 14.00 hours moon went out of the boundries of CANCER and obviously it moved into LEO, which is the next constellation (as moon moves eastwards, on a day to day basis.)

    I do not find anything wrong in it.

    It may be a little confusing to those who do not know much about astronomy but as a matter of fact, on any night, while moon appears to move from east to west, like SUN or any other planet but when moon’s position on a day is compared with it’s position on the previous day, moon moves from west to east. (on a day to day basis).

    So, if it was in CANCER till 14.00 hours on 11th January 5114 BC, it will move on to LEO on 12th January as shown by the software and again by about 09:00 hours on 14th January it goes to VIRGO.

    I am posting again contents and reference of two websites, that calrify this issue in detail.

    2. Since the Moon must move eastward enough to go completely around the sky in 27.3 days, it moves eastward by 13.2 degrees each day. Thus, with respect to the stars in the background, the Moon will be 13.2 degrees further east each night.
    http://www.definity-systems.net/~apw/astro/moon.html

    3. Since there are 360 degrees in a circle, the Moon moves 360 / 27.3 or 13.2 degrees per day relative to the stars, which is just over half a degree per hour, and approximately equal to its apparent size. This means that from night to night, the Moon moves a little more than one hand-width to the East (the direction of its motion around the Earth) relative to the stars, and from hour to hour, it moves about one diameter to the East, among the stars.

    http://www.cseligman.com/text/sky/moonmotion.htm

    Pushkar

  • Gururaj

    I found a great parallel between the Ramayana war and the world war 2. Both the old & new wars depicts of person/nation whose over reliance on the intellect causes their own downfall.

    Ravana overly relied on his intellect and grossly underestimated Rama and paid the price for it even though he himself was a great king.
    Similarly Germany which was quite advanced in technology especially war tanks underestimated the Russians and paid a heavy price. With its new advanced war tank Germany captured almost all of Europe and decided to attack Moscow which turned out to be the biggest blunder. The over engineered war tanks of Germany started to fail in the cold conditions of Russia and the simple Russian war tanks exceedingly did well. Also Russians employed women in good numbers in that battle and fought valiantly. The simple design of Russia was to use a slanting wall for armoury of the tank against a vertical one – a design still in use in tanks.

    Wars are not won using intellect alone. Wars are won by brave hearts. This is what Ramanyana showed and so did the world war.

  • I=Indian

    Mr Vijay
    First of all why do you GO BY THE THEORY “”if yugas being only few hundred years”", when texts clearly say that they are NOT. Then you calculate based on that THEORY which has no basis, and then you give some vague date to it and then finally conclude that Mahabharata is not very ancient!

    From where did you get this date of 700-500 BCE? Are you talking about Mahavira Jain or Mahabhrata?
    As for archaeology, already the submerged city of Dwaraka mentioned in the Mahabharata has been discovered in the seas near Gujarat.
    Even the pottery recovered from nearby here in the sea dates not later than 1500 BCE. Mahabharata itself dates to ATLEAST 3102 BCE
    http://www.boloji.com/astro/00325.htm

    Compared to the history we know which is 2000 years after christ, even the nearest date to present attributed to Mahabharata is more than 3000 years BEFORE christ. So it is NOT “”not very ancient”" as you said, it is indeed VERY VERY ANCIENT

  • Abhilash Menon

    Hi Mr. Pushkar,
    Thanks for replying to me and thanks for the nice compliments you gave me. It is indeed a great feeling to be complimented by someone of your intellectual status. It is highly commendable that in spite of your busy schedule, you find time to respond to all posts directed to you. I also apologize for my stray comments ;) , if you mean my posts where I had made remarks of a slightly critical nature towards you. I was just skeptical about the way you got offended when Vijay raised some doubts on your theory. Only later did I realize (from your posts) that it was out of frustration due to years of answering people who attack your ideas. However I am sure youd agree with me that it is better to face all criticism positively (which you are doing now) rather than negatively. Since I was not an expert in astronomy, I didnt bother to study or validate Vijays points as you have done, but all I wanted from you was to give convincing replies (right or wrong, Vijay has put a lot of sincere effort to study this topic and this deserves respect), which would only help your theory gain higher levels of impregnability. :D
    By the way, I am in perfect agreement with you on your views of the Yuga system and Puranas.

    Even if you had mailed me regarding the discussion I tried to initiate ;) , all I could have given you were references from the books of M.R.Yardi and other publications of BORI. I was looking into our ancient scriptures while researching (out of personal interest only) on another topic and was taking at face value all what was mentioned there. Then I started to realize the serious possibility of interpolations to the texts at much later periods than their original authorship. So I ended up reading the aforementioned books and was almost shocked at their conclusions (based on ancient manuscripts and statistical study of the composition styles)! According to those books, major portions of Mahabharata and Ramayana (Including the Bala Kanda, where Lord Rams birth is mentioned) are interpolations! :O

    Strangely, very few people in this forum (including Gurudev) consider interpolations in our ancient texts to be a real possibility, even though it is clear that there was no writing, set aside printing, for thousands of years and the texts were propagated solely through word of mouth. I was accused of confusing others when I said this. ;) I feel that it is a strong possibility that at the start of Classical Hinduism, in order to counter the emergence of Buddhism, Jainism, etc., drastic changes occurred to our scriptures and religion as such (before that there was no religion in India since Vedicism was a way of life) at the hands of Vishnavites and others. I am sure, as a true researcher, you will look into such ideas and would consider them in your next book. :D

    Good to see that you give proper respect to another extraordinary personality like Dr. P.V. Vartak. I am desperately waiting for the release of the English translations of his much acclaimed Marathi books Swayambhu and Vastava Ramayana.

    Thanks

  • Vijay Kumar Ojha

    Respected Sirs
    Being an Arts student and in administrative service does not give me any authority on speaking on the above subjects. But if we go by the theory that the Yugas are of only couple of hundred of years ….then Mahabharata would have been approx 700 BC- 500 BC !!! So it is not very ancient !!!!
    Now we have conversed with Astronomers and Astrologers, time has come to consult Archaeologists. Are there any relics which are of the Mahabharata era ? If there are …what is there age.
    We all believe that Ram Setu was built by Shri Ram. Science also believes that it was “”Man Made”". Can we not find out when it was constructed !!!!

  • http://www.hitxp.com/ Gurudev

    Vijay

    Thanks for those nice words.
    Unfortunately I cannot increase the number of comments visible in the sidebar beyond 15!

    Let me assure you, I never try to please anyone, my close friends describe me as being ruthless at times :)
    In this blog itself I have blocked few people permanently after they posted racist/fascist comments.
    Nor do I ever get demotivated by anybody for I am always self motivated. The only motivation for me is myself ;)

  • vijay

    Hi Guru,

    Is it possible for you in anyway to increase the number of posts seen under “”Latest Feedback”" from 15 to say 25. This is because of late I have noticed that there are many posts only related to “”birth date of Rama”", which purges the other recent comments on other topics. (we wont know who commented recently on an other topic and we need to browse thru each article to find out if there have been any recent comments)

    Thanks,
    Vijay.

  • vijay

    Gurudev, Gururaj is absolutely right. In fact one of my post was removed, but I never complained, and I said that I apologize for such stuff as I immediately realized that I had gone a bit far. If others dont apologize for what they have done, and in fact feel they are absolutely right, then its wise to let go of such persons, since negative attitudes always pull down our society. Its worth having a forum with 5 decent persons dicsussing rather than 100 such people. Dont worry about your blog, it is already a superhit, and 99 out of 100 people love to visit your blog anyday. You very well know its impossible to please everyone.
    I had read somewhere:
    “”I dont know the secret to success, but
    I surely know the secret to failure is to please everyone.”" ;)

    Your blog is going to be the next big thing for the youth, I can assure you that.

  • vijay

    Hello Mr. Pushkar,

    Thanks for finally changing your tone of answering to me into a very decent and elderly manner. I liked it, infact if you had replied to me like this in the very first post, I would have had great respect for you. Anyway looking at your latest posts and noticing that you have started respecting novices like us, I would reciprocate this respect to you.
    I have no hatred towards you or your work. But in your work we as youngsters see different loop holes (which have 50/50 chance of being right until disproved convincingly)

    1. First of all I very well knew moon’s speed is uniform, but as I am again repeating its not me who created all this stuff, I have just pasted here what the software showed me. In fact that’s why I requested you to plz refer to the Moon_end. pdf, wherein at 14.00 on 11th, moon is passing out of cancer, and when I put in noon time on 12th Jan, I see moon in leo. That definitely looks totally against normal beliefs.
    I perfectly understood about the shapes of different constellations, which you explained patiently, which even I observed that pisces was longest. But as I am again repeating, I sincerely ask you to plz look at the Moon_end.pdf, also request you to feed in the time of noon of 12th Jan in the software and see for yourself if I am wrong or not. And I can guarantee you that I am not at all in a hurry, ortherwise if you notice I am the one who is most interested in your work, apart from our good friend who left the blog and who infact did nothing but blast me. I am a science student, and looking at my age I think I am ready to learn anything new in life, but as I have repeated again and again I am the last person to take personal comments. By the way, thanks for your patience in answering me all along and I also sincerely appreciate your recent posts.

    2. The other points where I have a difference of opinion is about the yuga system, wherein 95 out of 100 people who are well-versed in vedas and all that literature confidently say that yuga system is indeed lakhs of years. Infact I again request all to go thru the following link:
    http://www.dandavats.com/?p=3576
    where they clearly refer to verses in mahabharatha and show that yugas are indeed made up of lakhs of years. They sound very logical.

    3. Thirdly, the various stories of Ravana pull things towards the lakhs years theory. Stories of Ravana fighting with Karthyaveerarjuna, and getting imprisoned, and Parashurama releasing Ravana from the prison. Story of Bali imprisoning Ravana and Story of atmalinga, and other similar stories around Ravana. All these stories are definitely not my creation ;)

    4. Finally Ravana is also said to have similar planetary positions with only difference being moon placement and ascendant in Libra (I would be grateful if anyone points out to the exact verse saying about this). Then this reinforces the above stories, as astronomically for the planets to come to same positions it requires thousands of years. Which also reinforces the claim that in satya and treta yugas people had longevity of many times more than the people of kaliyuga.

    5. And finally the decisive point of repetition of planetary positions. If say, these same planetary positions repeat thousands of years before, then each such possibility becomes a potential DOB of Lord Rama. One can put forth arguments of sea levels for supporting the dates of 5000 BC, but still its not possible to completely remove the other possible dates. The fact that we cant probe beyond 99999 BC should NOT let us to reject the dates before it.

    These were the 5 main points I could think of, against the date of 5000 BC date, which cannot be pushed aside.

    Regards,
    Vijay.

  • http://www.hitxp.com/ Gurudev

    Gururaj
    Being a moderator+participator my job is a bit difficult here, and I want to be (not just act to be) as neutral as possible when it comes to moderating user comments, for I believe that all views are worth it, unless it starts reaching extremes.

    The apology was as a moderator, for not publishing a comment which might have taken a person’s valuable time.

  • http://www.hitxp.com/ Gurudev

    Pushkarji

    Thank you very much. We all will be eagerly waiting to read the next edition. Wish the book with all the scientific evidences in it becomes a part of the history text books of our schools and colleges.

  • Pushkar Bhatnagar

    Dear Gurudev

    Just read your suggestion about explaining why there is no possiblity of any other date being the Date of Rama.

    It is definitely going to be there.

    For your information, because of my continuous quest in this direction, I now know the exact time period in which the five planets come very close to the positions mentioned by Valmiki. But coming close is not equivalent to exact REPETITION of positions. In all those dates, either the month is not CHAITRA or Moon is NOT in Punarvasu, or only four planets are in the desired place etc etc. I will place in my book the sky charts for all these dates also for verification by the readers. But all this I can not disclose / discuss here. (Trade Secret till published!!)

    That is why with so much of conviction, I keep telling you people, that these positions willl never repeat.

    Pushkar

  • Pushkar Bhatnagar

    Dear Abhilash

    When you initiated the discussion with reference to the Ramayana from Bhandarkar Institute, Pune I thought that here is a person who knows the subject. Later I wanted to send you a personal e mail to learn more about your own analysis of these books by Mr. Yardi. But lateron, the way you had been making some stray comments here and there, I thought there is no point in opening any discussion with you.

    From the quality of your posts I can see that you are a very knowledgeable person with sharp intellect and scientific bent of mind.

    Of course it is possible that you may not have the specialised knowledge about a subject, like astronomy as you have mentioned in your message to me today, and I fully agree with you because if you had even little understanding of astronomy – the motion of moon in the ecliptic circle- you would have at least pointed out to Dear Vijay, the mistake he had committed before I did so.

    You have drawn my attention to the two articles of Dr. Vartak on dating of Ramayana and Mahabharata and wanted me to respond.

    To be honest and candid, I must admit that these articles are at the very foundation of my entire work of dating the era of Lord Ram.

    In 1996, when for the first time I got free access to the net and started to search for the material on Ramayana and software on astronmy, I came across these articles. I vividly remember having taken out the prints of these articles and read out the same to my family members telling them that look what were the dates of Lord Ram’s time.

    From these articles I got the necessary que. I had read Valimiki Ramayana several times earlier but after reading these articles, my way of reading changed. I began to look at the astronomical clues / references more carefully in Ramayana. In fact I jotted down each and every refernce to astronomical body / planetary position in my note book, which formed the basis of my work. Simultaneously, during one of my visits to US, I picked up the software because it was not available in India. (Even today also, the registered versions of these software are not available in India.) And finally after putting in honest efforts for next 2-3 years I came to these conclusions which are being discussed here.

    Of course, you would like to know what are my views about the dates Mr. Vartak have found. The first thing that I did, after buying the software was to see what were the position of planets in the sky on the dates worked out by Dr. Vartak. And with all my humility, I have to say that they were not correct. On the dates worked out by Dr. Vartak, the planets were actually in entirely different places. So there was no point in discussing anything further. But, I have highest regards for Mr. Vartak, who is now in his nineties, perhaps.

    He did work out these dates on the basis of tedious manual calculations. Therefore there were bound to be differenes in his compuataion and actual position of planets in the sky, particularly because it was for a period almost 7000 – 9000 years ago. In fact, while exchanging our first few messages on this forum this precisely was the discussion. Vijay was saying these these calculations are very tedious and thus bound to have inaccuracies and I had said that

    “”Your mails present a bit defeatist attitude that calculations are tedious, complex etc so nothing can be done. This was true when such computations were attempted manually. Now there are sophisticated software available to show when and where planets were located in the sky at any time in future or in the past. I have not done any calculations. No formulae applied.”"

    While writing this I had Dr. Vartak’s case in mind. So coming back to his dates and work, though the dates he has worked out do not stand the scrutiny by a software so far as the poistion of planets in the sky is concerned, yet no one can take away the credit from him for showing the path of astronomical dating to all of us.

    I request dear Vijay to produce the skycharts for the dates worked out by Dr. Vartak and verify my comments that on these dates, none of the planets are seen in the positions mentioned by Valmiki. If he verifies this for the benefit of all, it will be a favour to me because that would be an independent opinion.

    Bye

    Pushkar

  • Gururaj

    Hi Gurudev,

    I hope you dont mind my asking; but why are you apologizing to people who decide to leave this forum?
    People come here on thier own. if they dont like, they can just leave it. why make noise about it?

    I request you not to get disappointed and continue with your good work.

    Rgds,

  • http://www.hitxp.com/ Gurudev

    Pushkarji

    Its really great to hear that you will be coming out with the next edition of your great research work. I am sure that you will be further refining the contents of the book and including all new information that you might have come across/realized in the due course of going through peoples’ and experts’ response to your work published earlier. We will be eagerly waiting for your revised edition to be published.

    Also, I have very small suggestion to make if you consider it to be worth taking into account. Please can you also if possible include a section in it, which explains about why any other logically possible dates indicated by other people, is not possible.

    This would make the book self contained/self critical about answering other parallels which some would think to be possible. Just a humble suggestion from my side.

  • http://www.hitxp.com/ Gurudev

    Ramana

    First of all let me clarify that on that same day of blocking ONE comment of yours, I also blocked 5 other comments by others who had used completely unparliamentary language against you. First I had blocked theirs and then came your comment and I blocked that too, and then wrote a comment requesting all not to get into personal accusations, at least not to use any unparliamentary language. Debates might get heated up, but still should not cross the boundary of descent language. If I had blocked only theirs and allowed yours, then they would have accused me of what you are accusing me now. As for any comments that came afterwards, none of them have any abusive language in it. I dont consider criticism to be the same as abusive language.

    Please dont accuse me of being biased just because I did not publish only ONE of your comment which contained unparliamentary words. Please dont ignore the fact that I have not blocked any other numerous comments of yours nor of others just because they are critical of my views. Anybody can have a simple glance in the blog and can assess it for themselves.

    I am not here as a moderator, I am also a participant and that makes things difficult for me, because it is quite natural for some people to think that I am blocking their comments, just because their views dont fit into my equations. I am the last person to do so, you can check your own comments that differed with mine on numerous occasions. It really hurts when people accuse for something which you have not done.

    I request you to consider all this, before leaving the forum. The decision ofcourse finally is yours and we respect that. And if you have decided to leave, well I apologize for not being able to meet your expectations, we will definitely miss your valuable comments, and I mean it. Good luck.

  • Pushkar Bhatnagar

    Dear Ramana

    I am sorry to learn about your decision to leave this forum. You definitely presented one colour of the spectrum. Afterall, all the seven colours are required to complete what is known as light – the light of knowledge / understanding.

    If it is a final decision, good, we will miss you. If you can keep commenting, please continue to do so, it will help all.

    I shall send you a mail from my personal account. You may otherwise also note that I am having two mail accounts.

    pushkarbhatnagar@hotmail.com and
    bhatnagar_pushkar@yahoo.com

    You are welcome and free to mail me at any of the above accounts.

    Best regards

    Pushkar

  • Pushkar Bhatnagar

    Dear Shri Ojha

    Thanks for your post today wherein you have said that you are happy to find my presence here. I find that you are definitely having sincere interest in this subject and an inquisitive mind. I shall try to post some relevant material which you may find worth a reading.

    The reason, Why I wanted to leave this forum was that I have shortage of time on two pressing counts:

    I need to update my book for the next edition since it is almost four years now when it was first published and during the last four years I have gathered much more information / facts about the issues involved, which readers should know.

    Secondly, and more imporatantly, Astro Physics deptt. of Tata Institute of Fundamental Studies, Mumbai had taken up my work for critical analysis and have commented on it. Given the quality of their comments, I want to incorporate those comments and my answers to them as a separate chapter in the next edition of my book. For that I need time.

    You can appreciate that discussion here with one / two individuals in a forum like this, that too when the quality of discussion being what it known to all, does not add any value to knowledge / understanding.

    Therefore, in any case I would like to take off sometime in near future, for atleast about 15 days or a month to complete these pressing works.

    Thanks anyway, for your good words. Best wishes

    Pushkar

  • Pushkar Bhatnagar

    Dear Vijay

    In you message today you wanted me to point out where you had given compliments to yourself. Well, normally I would like to forget / ignore all that non-sence but would not do so, if it is thrown as a challange to me.

    So here is what you wrote in your message of 21st December:

    “”Infact thats why I first liked the astronomical dating that was presented here in a scientific manner, but if you read my latest posts I have clearly scientifically (astronomically) demonstrated that this date is wrong and it cannot be attributed to Lord Ramas DOB. But the question is that if the other side keeps its minds open as I did. “”

    Now, after coming to know that Moon moves at the speed of 13.2 dgerees per day, while you computed it scientifically as 25.59 degrees per day in your message, Do you still hold that you have scientifically demostrated something?

    For moving 3.3 degrees moon take 6 hours and not 3.5 hours as you calculated. Therefore, in DOB of Ram, moon remains in Punarvasu Nakshatra till 12.30 p.m. and not till 9.30 p.m. as you calculated on the basis of wrong speed of moon. And that is why your conclusion, that it was not Cancer ascendent and Punarvasu Nakshtra simultaneously, was tottaly wrong.

    Anyway, part of discussion. In the interest of healthy discussion, one can ignore all this personal comments made in the past.

    Pushkar

  • Pushkar Bhatnagar

    My Dear Vijay

    Forgive me for my saying so, but you appear to be Man in hurry. In this hurry to show that you are right and other person is wrong, you jump to conclusions, which are often incorrect.

    Please treat me like any other elder of your family and read my message carefully. If I have to point out where you have gone wrong or what is factually incorrect in your articles, I have to use certain words which are advisory in nature. I have to tell you where your knowledge needs to improve or what is lacking in your approach or attitude. I can assure you one thing, if I am saying that you are factually incorrect, then you are actually incorrect, either you will yourself realize it or I will prove it to you.

    In the last post, I purposefully did not tell you where you went wrong in your calculation. I only exposed that your working of speed of moon in the sky was factually incorrect. This morning, I was expecting that you will say that either software is incorrect or speed of moon keeps changing. And you have done exactly the same. You do not think that you can yourself be wrong !!

    Let me tell you that both your conclusions, (i) either moon moves at different speeds in sky OR (ii) the software you have used is inaccurate, are absolutely wrong.

    Moon moves in the sky only at uniform speed of 13 degrees 20 minutes per 24 hours AND the software that you have downloaded is one of the MOST ACCURATE software available today.

    Now I will explain where you went wrong in your computation of speed of moon in sky and why it is not tallying with the universally known scientific value. Let me cut and paste the relevant part of your message of 19th December as under:

    Also we know that each zodiac sign is divided into 30 degrees. Hence let us calculate How long does it take for moon to travel 1 degree in cancer.
    30 degrees = 32 hours, hence
    1 degree = 1.0666667 hours

    The first line of the above quote i.e, Also we know that each zodiac sign is divided into 30 degrees is a factually wrong presumption. In astrology as well as astronomy there are 12 zodiacs, which cover 360 degrees of ecliptic circle but that does not automatically mean that each of them are exactly 30 degrees in span. When you look at sky, you will find that although these 12 zodiacs cover 360 degrees but some of these zodiacs are very small while others are very long and none of them are actually exactly 30 degrees in span.

    After all what are Zodiac constellations? Constellations are group of stars which resemble some known shape / figure / animal etc on the basis of which they are named for identification. When a group of stars appeared to resemble a sitting lion, that group in totality was termed as LEO. When another group was seen as resembling a fish it was termed as PISCES. And another group resembled as weighing balance so it was termed as TULA or LIBRA. The point to understand is that when these are groups of stars with unequal number of stars, their span in the sky was also unequal. Ideally, please note, it is important, ideally it was preferable that our astronomers had chosen 12 constellations, which were exactly 30 degrees in span, but the random manner in which stars are spread in the sky, it was not possible for them to identify 12 zodiacs of exactly equal size in the sky. Hence some of the zodiacs are very long like PISCES and some are very small in their span like ARIES, CANCER and LIBRA. Just have a look at the software and you will note that the size of PISCES is almost double the size of CANCER !!

    In your calculations you picked up, by chance, CANCER as the zodiac for computing the speed of moon. You presumed Cancer constellation to be equal to 30 degree in span in the sky. That is wrong. The spread of Cancer zodiac in the sky is only about 18 degrees. You presumed it to be 30 degrees. Therefore your speed of the moon is also coming in the ratio of 30:18 to the actual speed of moon. The speed that you worked out is almost double the actual speed of moon because you have incidentally chosen Cancer constellation.

    If you had done the same exercise by choosing PISCES constellation the speed worked out by you would have been slower than the actual speed of 13.18 degree per 24 hours because PISCES spreads almost 36 degrees in the sky. In that case you would have assumed it to be 30 degrees. You can see that Moon takes 65 hours to cross PISCES (like it takes just 32 hours to cross Cancer). So you would have said speed of moon is 30/65 hours or 0.46153 hours to cross one degree.

    Note this carefully that you have used the software to see how much time moon has taken to cross Cancer, but same software you did not consider to find out what exactly is the span of cancer in the sky. There you assumed it to be 30 degree because of your understanding of astrology. There lies the fault and that is why your computation has gone haywire.

    Another point, when you were writing that message of 19th December, did it never strike you that you are calculating Speed of moon in the sky and you must not be the first person to do so. If you do it for the first time in the world it should have been perhaps the discovery of the millennium. If this scientific fact was not known till you worked it out, you think it was possible to send missions to moon, mars and what not?

    Why I am saying so, if you had realized that speed of moon in the sky is an empirical / factual data, you would have not done that computation and arrived at those incorrect conclusions, which you are even in your last message also asserting as VALID conclusions. That is why in the beginning of this message I mentioned that you are a Man in hurry. Please have patience, you may have a great hate for me and my work but as a science student, doing Ph. D. you should verify every thing twice, that too from various angles, before you write them as your findings in a public domain. Net is the most easily accessible source of information.

    I am referring to certain websites where the following information is available:
    1. The moon moves rapidly with respect to the background stars. It moves about 13 degrees (26 times its apparent diameter) in 24 hours—slightly greater than its own diameter in one hour! Its rapid motion has given it a unique role in the history of astronomy. For thousands of years it has been used as the basis of calendars. Isaac Newton got crucial information from the Moon’s motion around the Earth for his law of gravity.
    http://www.phy.ilstu.edu/~bkc/astronomy/nakedeye/nakedeyc.htm

    2. Since the Moon must move eastward enough to go completely around the sky in 27.3 days, it moves eastward by 13.2 degrees each day. Thus, with respect to the stars in the background, the Moon will be 13.2 degrees further east each night.
    http://www.definity-systems.net/~apw/astro/moon.html

    3. The Moon moves around the Earth in an approximately circular orbit, going once around us in approximately 27.3 days, or one sidereal period of revolution. As it does so, its position changes, relative to the stars.
    Since there are 360 degrees in a circle, the Moon moves 360 / 27.3 or 13.2 degrees per day relative to the stars, which is just over half a degree per hour, and approximately equal to its apparent size. This means that from night to night, the Moon moves a little more than one hand-width to the East (the direction of its motion around the Earth) relative to the stars, and from hour to hour, it moves about one diameter to the East, among the stars.

    http://www.cseligman.com/text/sky/moonmotion.htm

    There are hundreds of websites from where you can verify this information and read more. You may just put the words Moon moves 13 degrees in sky in the search engine of Yahoo and it will list the sites.

    This message has become too long. Therefore I am breaking here.

    I find that Sh. Ojha has lots of curiosity about astronomy and he sincerely wants to learn. For him and other inquisitive minds I will try to post some basics of astronomy and applied astrology astrology when actually seen in the sky – in subsequent posts. I hope you will also have a glance at them because, I am sure by now you must have realized that you also need to improve, a little bit, your understanding and knowledge of astronomy and astrology.

    Regards

    Pushkar

  • Abhilash Menon

    Hi Mr. Pushkar,

    Good to see you back in the discussions. :D
    I am sure you will clear all the objections and counter arguments raised here towards your theory. Since my expertise on astronomy is inadequate to comment on Vijays points, I hope you will give valid explanations (if you are not frustrated with us already) for the sake of people like me. :)

    I just wanted to bring to your notice the following article, pertaining to the subject the birth date of Lord Ram.

    http://www.hindunet.org/hindu_history/ancient/ramayan/rama_vartak.html

    Here Dr.P.V.Vartak has also used astronomical dating and has arrived at a date of 4th December 7323 B.C for Lord Rams DOB, which is obviously different from your deductions.

    Dr.P.V.Vartak has also dated the Mahabharata.

    http://www.hindunet.org/hindu_history/ancient/mahabharat/mahab_vartak.html

    Your comments on this would be informative.

    Thanks

  • Ramana

    Mr.Pushkarji,
    I am interested in talking further about your book,and your humanatraian efforts.Please email me at j1doctor@aol.com
    ramana

  • Ramana

    Gurudev,
    I decided to leave the blog. .You are making it is a biased blog. Some of the people here are posting comments with insults with out interruption. You blocked me in the blog because it is critical of your views and another fellow possibly your evil twin.
    I know this is the problem with all the blogs. whenever it is critical of their views they can manipulate things to suit their way.
    I do not have time for these kind of games…Small wisdom.. If everyone agrees with out questions let me tell you how boring it could be.
    I am well respected in much prestigious groups.
    MR.Pusharji Bharat nagar
    I understand your frustration.. But any way myself and my friends wanted to help your humanitarian efforts in India.
    Please get me your contact information to my personal email j1doctor@aol.com
    Good luck ..so long..

  • Vijay Kumar Ojha

    Respected Sir
    Firstly I would thank Mr Pushkar for being back in the forum. Being mocked and ridiculed is a part of life…if I am wrong I will correct myself and if right ..then why care. I am delighted to see Vijay put in so much of efforts and research. Your discussions make me feel that I am illiterate. Could you kindly suggest which books to study to understand vedic astrology

  • Gururaj

    Abhilash Menon,

    Your message December 23, 2007 at 6:28 am completely hits the nail on the head. kudos mate.

  • vijay

    Abhilash/Gurudev,

    It was really interesting, about Q mech that you wrote. I probably need to start studying this (I am totally new to this). It seems to be a fascinating subject. Can you suggest some basic good books on this and whether I need any pre-requisites to study that.

  • vijay

    Hello Mr. Pushkar,

    Thanks for replying back. First of all I know very well that moon travels approximately 24 hours in one nakshatra (13.333 degrees). There is no doubt about that. Infact I wanted to raise this in my previous post, but thought all this would be contradicting. The main reason why I didnt go by this conventional theory is because what I saw in the software was completely against this belief. And thru out my posts of 19th December I have said only what was there in the software. Nothing is created by me. This I have shown in the pdf files.

    If we go by the usual calculation of 24 hours per nakshatra, then by noon of 10th Jan, 3.3 degrees are complete, then by noon of 11th Jan, another 13.33 degrees are complete and by noon of 12th Jan another 13.33 degrees would have been completed. This would form 3.33+13.33+13.33 = 30 degrees of cancer. But when we feed in the time of noon of 12th Jan in the Planetarium system, what do we see, Lo, the Moon is almost in the middle of Leo. How did this happen when moon was supposed to have been at the end of cancer, even I had this doubt. Hence if you please go back to be post of 19th December you would notice that I have posted a pdf file (Moon_end.pdf) wherein the software (not me) shows that moon ended in cancer at about 2 pm on 11th Jan.

    Now let us go again by convention and try to see if moon comes back to cancer in around 27 days (1 day = 1 nakshatra, hence 27 nakshatras = 27 days). And now I put in the time date of morning of 6th Feb, and we indeed get moon in cancer. So the conclusion from all these can be either one of the two things:

    1. The moon does not travel smoothly and in equal time measures in each zodiac sign, i.e, less than 54 hours in some signs (example: cancer), and more than 54 hours in some other signs. Hence, finally we get 27 days for 27 nakshatras (12 zodiacs).

    2. The software is itself completely wrong.

    So, either way, my question and post still remains very much valid.

    And finally could you please pinpoint where exactly did I self-praise, or complement myself, if not, then please dont get personal, as you very well know that I can get personal too.

    Thanks,
    Vijay.

  • http://www.hitxp.com/ Gurudev

    Abhilash
    Regarding your question on vegetarianism all I meant was that morality is a relative subject and one can’t impose one’s own morals on others, for the simple reason that it is not absolute in nature. Which is why I said, food is a personal choice :)

  • http://www.hitxp.com/ Gurudev

    Ramana
    I agree with Abhilash on astrology vs qmech.
    Its a completely different matter to debate as to whether there is any science in astrology or not.
    But the uncertainty of quantum mechanics is at a quantum level and NOT at an astrological futuristic level and is restricted to planck’s constant which is very negligible! We have to keep in mind that astrology is statistical in nature.
    In fact the very nature of Schrodinger’s wave eq allows prediction and is based on probability! If you look at it that way, thats what even astrology talks all about, probabilistic predictions :)

    By the way, if String theory is correct, and I believe it is, then there is no place for uncertainty any more. Please see http://hitxp.wordpress.com/2007/10/17/einstein-wins-again/

  • Gururaj

    ………….
    Gurudev,
    I understand why you cut off my post. I was certainly rude..
    ………….

    and this person doesn’t even tender an apology and continues to justify the rudeness.
    I see me me me being screamed here…

    sorry to make personal remarks. I thought it was necessary to highlight some people’s attitude here. anyway i am beginning to lose interest to comment here even though Gurudev tries his best to make it interesting.
    GD: your efforts are greatly applauded and I can only hope that people visiting here don’t undo your efforts.

  • Pushkar Bhatnagar

    Dear Vijay

    In your article of 19th December wherein you have proved to everyone that the DoB found by me is baseless, you have committed perhaps the biggest blunder of your life.

    You do not even know that moon travels 13.18 degrees in 24 hours. This is the most elementary and universally known scientific truth since ages. (refer Nasa, Wikipedia, any astronomy / even astrology site). And it does not require any ‘rocket science’ to understand. Moon completes one full round of sky,360 degrees, in one lunar month of about 28 days (27.32 days to be precise). hence in 24 hours it moves by 13.18 degrees.

    Since it moves 13.18 degrees in sky in 24 hours, for moving by 1 degree it takes about 1.8 hours or 1 hour 48 mins.

    Now look at your post of 19th December. Let me cut and paste the relevant portion, for the benfit of all, as below:

    “”Hence let us calculate How long does it take for moon to travel 1 degree in cancer.
    30 degrees = 32 hours, hence
    1 degree = 1.0666667 hours.
    Hence 3.3 degrees = 3.52 hours = 3 and 1/2 hours.”"

    One more thing, let me tell you , moon does not change its speed in the sky when it passes in front of Cancer zodiac. Its speed remains uniform all through the circle.

    Hence, to the scientists’ s community you have given ‘a new speed of moon in the sky’ that is for moving 1 degree in the sky moon takes just about 1 hour and 4 minutes and not 1 hour 48 mins as is universally know so far.

    You know if I apply your newly computed speed of moon, it will show that the lunar month should be of just 16 days!! Truely astonishing.

    Let me provide the maths working here. Going by your computation

    If 1 degree movement takes 1.0666667 hours
    So, 360 degrees means 384 hours (1.066666 into 360)
    And 384 hours mean 16 days (384/24 =16).

    I hope you have understood the blunder you have committed. Now let me tell you how the date of birth or rather time of birth of Lord Rama worked out by me satisfy the condition of Valmiki that when he was born, moon was in Punarvasu nakshatra and Cancer was rising in the east (Cancer was the ascendent).

    By using your own computed ‘speed of moon in the sky’, you have told us that for moving 3.3 degrees moon will take just 3 and 1/2 hours. (refer to your message portion that I have cut /paste above).

    But I am sorry to say that moon actually takes full 6 hours to move 3.3 degrees. therefore, moon was in the domain of Punarvasu nakshatra till 12.30 P.M. on 10th January 5114 BC because it came in cancer at about 6:30 a.m. As you have your self said, Cancer sign started rising in the east, or became the ascendent from about 11.30 a.m. onwards. Hence, at noon time (12.00 noon) not only moon was in Punarvasu nakshatra, Cancer sign was also the ascendent. Therefore, this precisely is the time when Lord Rama was born when these two conditions specified by Valmiki were fullfilled.

    You will be pleasently surprised to know that in exactly the same way I have worked out 12 noon as the time of birth of Lord Rama, in my book, when all conditions prescribed by Valmiki were satisfied.

    Traditionally also we celebrate Ram Janma at the noon on Ram Navmi and Krishna Janma at the mid night of Krishna Ashtami !

    Not withstanding your comments about me in posts subsequent to 19th December and the compliments you gave to yourself after this pathbreaking finding,

    My best regards to you.

    Pushkar

  • Pushkar Bhatnagar

    Dear Gurudev

    You would recall that on 19th December I informed you that I am leaving this blog for good, in the exchange of our personal mails.

    On 19th December itself, Dear Vijay posted a stunning article on this page where in he “”re-computed the speed of moon in the sky”" and proved to everyone that my findings about DOB of Rama was baseless.

    I wanted to respond to him immediately but given my words to you that I am leaving the blog, I remained silent so far. But I think Vijay likes me so much that he will not let me go easily.

    So, I am back.

    Pushkar

  • Abhilash Menon

    Gurudev,
    Did you change your opinion regarding Moral Vegitarianism? I didnt really get that feeling… ;)
    Anyways… that topic is closed (stalemate) :D

  • Abhilash Menon

    As I said before, Vijays points are pure astronomy, not astrology.

    Anyways coming back to astrology and Quantum mechanics (QM)
    QM doesnt say that you cannot predict the future at all. In fact this theory gives the best predictions (especially in the mesoscopic world) in science today, albeit, of a probabilistic nature. What QM says is that you cannot predict the future with absolute certainty. However this is more prominent in the mesoscopic and microscopic world. For the observable normal world, Classical Mechanics (CM), which is deterministic, still holds well. Results predicted by quantum mechanics differ from the results predicted by classical mechanics only in the case of very small objects, such as atoms.

    QM cannot predict the boiling point of water. Does that mean that we will never know when water will start to boil? Are we not able to predict the path of planets and comets to a high level of accuracy? So, even though the principle of CM is not correct, as applied to non-microscopic bodies, it can make fairly accurate predictions. When see as whole units and systems our bodies and our environment are not microscopic. So it should be possible to predict our future paths with a fair degree of accuracy, if we know the factors and variables influencing our system, right?

    If you still want to apply quantum mechanics, consider this View the planets and the zodiacs of astrology as a quantum system, such that the subatomic particles in every thing (including our bodies, lives, etc) is in a state of complex quantum entanglement. So it implies that when we measure a particular movement of a planet and get a result, the probability that an entangled persons life will move in a particular way becomes 100%!!! Very abstract but who knows? Maybe it is true ;)

  • vijay

    Hello All, in continuation of my post of

    http://hitxp.wordpress.com/2007/09/16/birth-date-of-rama/#comment-7005

    I found a crucial sloka in Baalakanda (chapter 18, 15thverse) wherein Valmiki also gives details of Bharata, Lakshmana, andShatrugnas time of birth.

    puShye jaataH tu bharato mInalagne prasanna dhIH |
    saarpe jaatau tu saumitrI kuLIre abhyudite ravau || 1-18-15

    Anyone can read and understand this (even I should refresh the language).The sloka says clearly that bharata was born in pushya nakshatra and had Pisces ascendant (mina lagne means Pisces ascendant meena is fish and lagna is ascendant), and lakshmana and shatrugna were born in aslesha nakshatra. From the sloka its absolutely clear even about bharatas time of birth. But as the sloka doesnt say much, except that lakshmana and shatrugna were born in the morning of the next day of Lord Ramas birth, and doesnt specify their ascendant, we cant make much about their birth times. (saarpe jaatau means that one who is born in serpents sign, note that aslesha nakshatras animal is serpent. All nakshatras have a presiding animal, which rules the persons animal instinct characters.)

    As I had calculated before, Pushya nakshatra is in cancer in the following degrees (3.333 to 16.6666), i.e., a span of 13.333 degrees. Hence this13.333 degrees is equivalent to the moon transiting for approximately14hours, i.e., moon is in pushya for approximately 14 hours. Now taken approximately that Punarvasu ended at around 10 am on 10th Jan, pushya spans from 10 am on 10th Jan to midnight of 11thJan.But we should keep in mind that simultaneously within this span of14hours we should get Pisces ascendant as Bharatas ascendant was Pisces. But when we input the time of midnight of 11th Jan,we can clearly see from Picture 1 that still the ascendant is in Sagittarius,not even Aquarius or in fact even Capricorn. So there doesnt seem be a tally of even Lord Bharatas time of birth. Hence there needs to be further research into this, wherein the moon positions as well as the ascendant signs match simultaneously. Please note here that I have done exactly as what Valmiki had said, and nothing is my own interpretation.

    http://hitxp.wordpress.com/files/2007/12/bharata.pdf
    Picture 1: Bharata.pdf shows the end of moon in pushya nakshatra, where one can see that the ascendant is still in Sagittarius.

    http://hitxp.wordpress.com/files/2007/12/bharata_ascendant.pdf
    Picture2: Bharata_ascendant.pdf shows the time when the ascendant is Pisces(at around 4 am – to 6 am and this is reinforced by the various story-tellers who say that Bharata was born in the early morning of that day one such being http://www.valmikiramayan.net/bala/sarga18/bala_18_frame.htm), which is clearly 4 hours after the moon has passed pushya nakshatra.

    I may also be wrong, so please feel free to point out any mistakes.

    And regarding the Yuga system I came across someone in a different forum who has raised the question, and he suggested as follows: below I am copying his statements:

    The same Ramayan that gives the planetary descriptions (on which the calculation is based on) also tells thatLord Ram came in Treta yug.Matsya purana (47/240,243-246) gives more detail of various decensions and says Bhagwan Ram appeared at the end of 24th treta yug.Currently,28th Kali yug is in effect according to our scriptures. Various purans give the period of yug cycles also. This gives the period of Lord Ram approx. 18 million years ago.
    The planetary positions mentioned in Ramayan would also have occurred multiple times in history prior to the calculated date…
    Moreover the date calculated is heavily dependent on interpretation of sanskrit verses and softwares or method of calculation. Thats why every other persons gives his own date with day/month/year and time.
    If we have to believe the historicity of Lord Ram because of Ramayan then we should also believe that he appeared in treta yuga, because the same scripture says so.

    I havent read matsya puran hence I would request Gurudev if he could confirm this for me. Sorry Gurudev, I am giving you more trouble, in fact even I am simultaneously searching for this verse.

  • vijay

    Thanks Abhilash, yes I shall definitely follow one advice of yours, of not replying to such persons who try to divert our attention. Now let us forget that and come to topic. I have requested Guru to again allow me to post some more pictures. I went back and read the 15th sloka of baalakanda’s 18th chapter where Valmiki also talks of Bharata, Lakshmana and Shatrugna’s DOB. Its very interesting. Plz wait for my next post.

    And Vijay Kumar if you are really keen on astrology I would suggest you take up classes at some universities which offer them, or get hold of some good teacher, as it is very difficult to study on your own. But if you feel confident of studying on your own there are lots of basic vedic astrology books available in the market. I would recommend you find books authored by Dr. B.V. Raman and Bepin Behari. There are thousands of books on basic astrology in the market. Just pick up one of them and start reading, probably after 3-4 months of self-study you will start feeling this science and you can then approach any good teacher or study through good advanced books. As this is not the proper forum to discuss about astrology in general, I would advice you to join many other forums on astrology. Infact I have seen astrology being discussed by Germans and Swedens very seriously on some forums (in their own language). They have started recognizing astrology as a science and are rapidly researching in this field, unlike many of Indians who have a notion that studying such subjects is degrading as it is not science, and also due to ‘pseudo-secularism’.

  • Ramana

    Gurudev,
    I understand why you cut off my post. I was certainly rude..
    My rudeness comes from a philosophy that I need to attack and remove the unruly person before they get unnecessary attention and launch personal attacks on me. It may not be the right choice but I have tendency I will do my best. next time.

    Gurudev, You have great wisdom and charisma for your age. It is commendable.
    I have certainly some disagreements with your political beliefs and some sections of philosophy. We can agree to disagree. You also demonstrated well that you are willing to learn and change your opinion in the case moral vegetarianism after some debate.
    That shows your character.

  • Ramana

    Mr.Menon,
    The astrology is in direct conflict with Quantum Mechanics.
    Quantum Mechanics forbids with absolute certainty that you can not predict the future. You can guess but can not predict.
    I will take side of the science, if anytime that science conflicts with religion or my personal beliefs. I will not and can not twist science to fit my religious beliefs.
    I have great respect for Hindu religion and scriptures as evident in my blog.
    As far as Tamil is concerned I love Tamil and Tamil people.
    I used to speak Tamil and have fond memories of Madras, spending my summers.
    The conflict came in , that source of proof to debunk Aryan Invasion Theory came from websites like Tamilnatoion.org, that I have problem. As simple as that..

  • Vijay Kumar Ojha

    Respected Sir
    There are lot of people in this forum with immense knowledge on astrology. I will be a beginner. Could anyone kindly suggest some books to read to understand vedic astrology.

  • http://www.hitxp.com/ Gurudev

    Ramana,
    Sorry, including one of your comment, I have in total about 14 comments blocked in this article so far in the past few days. I had to block that one of yours in the end as I had blocked similar others too. Sorry about that :(

    I=Indian, I request you too, please dont indulge in personal abuse, that leaves us no where.

    Going forward, any comments that contain any unparliamentary language / personal abuse will be blocked. I have now put filters in place for abusive keywords. This applies to my comments too.

    My humble request to all, let us maintain the quality of our discussions. Instead of opposing the persons, let us oppose the views which we dont agree with, with logical counter arguments, if we have any.

    I dont mind having 1 quality comment, instead of 10 personal accusations.
    Thanks to all for your cooperation and I apologize to all for any inconvenience caused :)

  • Abhilash Menon

    Ramana,
    Even though I have differences with Vijay on other points like the Yuga system and the scientific basis of the Puranas, I feel that his points on the planet positions are valid. My knowledge of astronomy is limited, but I think he deserves an answer. Are you objecting to this because he used the word Astrology instead of Astronomy? But his arguments contain references to planet positions, which is astronomy.
    Moreover why do you degrade the science of Astrology? Just because some evil minded people has exploited it and used it for personal gains? Or because you seldom find astrologers who can predict accurately all the time? Believe me; I have seen astonishingly accurate predictions done by astrologers. Au contraire, I have also see predictions embarrassingly missing the mark. But this does not mean that the science as such is wrong. We have to explore more into it and see if it has a scientific basis rather than demeaning it with a prejudice. If science proves beyond doubt one day that there is no basis to astrology we shall discard it once and forever. :)

    So lets work towards gaining knowledge and uncovering the truth by giving due credit to persons who raise valid points or gracefully disagreeing (with proof) to invalid points. :D

    PS:- Ramana, from all your other posts, I have seen and understood the revolutionary spirit in you. I read your (quite interesting) blog too. I should say that the manner in which you choose to reveal your disagreement is quite unbecoming of an erudite person like you.

    What is it about Tamil Nation? I didnt see anything in this blog regarding it!!!???

  • ramana

    Mr.menon
    What is there to answer about Astrological predictions?
    what is there to comment on things coming from sources like Tamilnation?
    There is absolutely nothing scientific about it! It is pure garbage.
    Only foolish people follow that crap!!

  • ramana

    Ravi Nair,
    Do not go down to this idiot’s level. He proved to everyone he is an idiot beyond a doubt.
    People with knowledge and accomplishments do not brag about. This idiot does not know there is some one always there better than him.

  • ramana

    Gurudev,
    Why are you putting my posts are on hold while some idiots posts are published with out interruption.

  • Abhilash Menon

    I really dont understand. Why are people ridiculing each other in such undignified manner? Are we looking to find answers of just enforce our own beliefs? Out of the blue one Mr. Ravi Nair pops up and does nothing but throw venom on Vijay. If he thinks Vijay is wrong, he should answer Vijay on his post. Other than occasions where he tried to respond to personal bashings, Vijay has not gone out of the topic at all. The birth date of Lord Ram is deduced by Mr. Bhatnagar using astronomy. So Vijay was lining up his points using the same since he has knowledge in the field. If Mr. Bhatnagars theory is sound enough, he should answer all the doubts raised, rather than get offended (Mr. Bhatnagar just got offended when Vijay politely pointed out his disagreements. It was so uncharacteristic of a learned person like him). It is preposterous to claim that since a person has passed the ICS exam, whatever he says should be accepted blindly. It is clear that the scoff towards Vijay was just because Mr. Nair has no clue about astronomy/astrology and somehow wanted to worship people who have passed ICS.
    I applaud you Vijay, for have a scientific mind and not just accepting something just because some one with an IAS said it. I am writing this just to show my support to your inquisitive mind and to encourage you to carry on the good work. One piece of advice – dont waste your time responding to ignorance. :D

  • Vijay Kumar Ojha

    On one of the news channels they were describing the places where Shri Ram had visited. I am fascinated and have a deep desire to go and live in the places where he had lived.
    Date of birth of Shri Ram is contested. As Mr Bhatnager has suggested it as 5114 BC may be correct. Yes , I have very little understanding on planetary positions and astrology ( here I would seek Mr Vijay’s advice for the books to read to understand astrology as he does or anyone who can also suggest… as I have now developed a deep yearning to understand vedic astrology)… but in his book “” The Holy Science”" Swami Sri Yukteshwar Giri has suggested this Yug as Dwapar Yug. I would request you to read this book and give comments

  • vijay

    BTW, for your kind info, Mr. Nair, I dont like to talk about my success in competitive exams, but since you have personally accused me, I shall take the liberty with Guru’s permission to answer you back.

    I have great respect for those who pass the civil services exam. I have also great respect for Mr. Bhatnagar. But its sad that he some how felt I was trying to question his credentials, while infact I was commending his work. This may be because I was the only one on this forum to have scientifically questioned his findings.

    Now, since I was a technical person I thought of sitting for the all India entrance exam of post-grad education in India (GATE) run by IITs and IISc, where I got a top rank and studied my masters in IISc. Since you have taken the liberty to say that I am studying PhD in a ‘crap’ university, what can I say but just that F*** O** with your stupid ass. The truth is neither you have any scientific argument against me nor any solid argument against the yuga system, hence your frustration, but I can understand your ranting and raging ;)

  • vijay

    What else can I say now that I am not supposed to reply back to this guy in his same coin ;)
    Looks like he is bent upon making this a fight of IRS versus PhD (in some ‘crap’ university), LOL. I couldnt help but laugh for full 10 minutes, thanks mate for the fun. BTW I sincerely meant when I said I will take anyone around munich.

    BTW, I have replied persons in their same coin before (arrogance with arrogance, jokes with jokes, astronomy with astronomy). Its a naked truth that your respected IRS person hasnt replied back when I have used the same software to prove his claimings to be wrong. Perhaps I have to wait for some more days for a scientific reply.

    The truth is before you guys, not in the form of astrology but in the form of astronomy (I can understand why astrology isnt considered science with so much of bashing going on around :) ).

    Can anyone first take the pain to read thru my post of

    http://hitxp.wordpress.com/2007/09/16/birth-date-of-rama/#comment-7005

    and then bash me up, LOL.

    BTW, I havent discussed anything out of topic (except replying back to some nasty comments), and am still sticking with astronomy.

  • Ravi Nair

    I read the entire information in this blog.

    It is a pity that what began as the ‘Scientific dating of era of Lord Ram’ has been reduced to mere ‘Astrological discussion on the horoscope of Lord Ram’. Courtsey one fellow, the self proclaimed astrologer cum Ph. D. aspirant Mr. Vijay, who has repeatedly proved himself to be the big ass of this forum.

    While most of other members are trying to bring the subject in focus, this fellow takes it on to the tangent. He does not even understand that no one in interested in astrologocal analysis of Rama’s kundli, nor anyone perhaps has any point to make on astrological issues but this person is again and again rasing some irrelevant questions and also trying to answer them too.

    I read that Mr. Bhatnagar is a member of Indian Revenue Service. Only a joker like Mr. Vijay, will ridicule the intellect of Mr. Bhatnagar. Mr. Vijay, do you understand what it means to clear the Civil Services Examination in India. Every year about 3-4 Lakh aspirants appear for this keenly contested and unarguably toughest competition in India and only 400 odd clear after three stages of written exmination & interview. If Mr. Bhatnagar has made it to Civil Services, he need not prove anything further about his intelligence and abilities. On the other hand there is this person – a last grade Ph. D. student in some university. It is well said that the cream of the students easily make it through some competitive exam. only the trash takes up courses to do Bachelors, Masters and Ph. D. and so on. It is sad that a person like Vijay is ridiculing Mr. Bhatnagar, who in any case a much older person, by saying that I will take you around the Max Plank institute etc..etc…

    I request Mr. Gurudev should start a separate page for astrological discussion on Rama’s horoscope and let Mr. Vijay throw his special knowledge there. This blog may remain dedicated to the historicity of Lord Rama.

  • Abhilash Menon

    Yes Vijay, this is the sad state of our times. It has become a fashion among the so called educated youth to deride ancient sciences like astrology. They never try to look for the actual truth. Agreed that all the astrologists in the world dont predict things 100% accurately. But this doesnt mean that the science as such is wrong. There can be pure scientific explanation to each and every thing mentioned in the science of astrology. However I have some doubts to clear regarding this. But unfortunately this is not the blog dealing with astrology as such. So I think if Gurudev writes one on astrology we can discuss it more. :D

    PS:- Unfortunately nowadays people are equating simple things like reading a book with digging 1KM deep in Ayodhya. They even threaten with litigations (that too for acknowledging somebodys work) if what they want to believe is questioned. So dont expect many people to recognize astrology as a science because they have already made up their mindset. :D

  • vijay

    Dear Vijay Kumar,

    Planetary positions do control our lives, and its the truth which many feel that in ancient times some vested interests created to cheat others. All I can do is laugh at such allegations ;)

    First of all they dont have the patience to study this science themselves, and due to the pseudo-secularist governments we have had, this great science has been accused incorrectly without even studying them. I had my own doubts and to clarify them (as I had an open mind) I began studying the influence of planets on our lives. I studied my own planetary positions, I was shell-shocked, to find out that everything is just TRUE. Its just a matter of whether you study it on your own and verify it for yourself or you outrightly reject it due to some pre-judiced notions.

  • vijay

    Abhilash/I=Indian,

    Yes Abhilash, as I agreed with you before, I again endorse your view that we should keep our minds wide open as true researchers. Infact people like you who dont stick to a specific theory and continue in search of the truth are required in such fields.

    I=Indian, yes, what you said is also true, that many institutes as of late have started researching on these sacred-texts. I havent seen BORI’s report (which I shall do sometime later) but its very difficult for any institute to keep their minds open. They are mostly closed to reviews, which worries me a lot, because they might be distorting what is actually there.
    There was a very well known translation of original Valmiki Ramayana (i.e., all kandas including uttarakanda) by Mr. N. Raghunathan who was a great english and sanskrit scholar and he devoted his entire later life in this translation and as could be considered as an expert his views could also be taken into account. He was of the view that the first and last kandas (balakanda and uttarakanda which many feel are later additions to valmiki ramayana) are from the same author (valmiki) even though the writing styles looked different between these two kandas and the other middle kandas. Also why couldnt any author have two distinguishing styles, that is also a possibility, right.

    Infact many have the view that valmiki wrote original ramayana at around 500 – 1000 BC, which makes me laugh. What else can I say for such studies. One such is:

    http://ramayana.berkeley.edu/

    where none of the translators are Indians (I am not saying that others might not be well-versed in sanskrit, but they cannot relate to the true meanings of many sanskrit words and in what unique context these words are used.)
    The translators are: Robert P. Goldman, Rosalind Lefeber, Sheldon I. Pollock, Sally J. Sutherland Goldman, Barend A. van Nooten. (no offence to these good guys)

    But all these superficial studies makes one feel that Ramayana is being superficially studied and its historicity is being twisted to suit one’s own story.

    But, all said and done, I completely agree with you Abhilash that we definitely should keep our eyes and ears open. Infact that’s why I first liked the astronomical dating that was presented here in a scientific manner, but if you read my latest posts I have clearly scientifically (astronomically) demonstrated that this date is wrong and it cannot be attributed to Lord Rama’s DOB. But the question is that if the other side keeps its minds open as I did. Finally as I say always I am completely open to criticism, not arrogant, personal or derogatory though ;)

    PS: I shall find time and read thru the books that you mentioned.

  • Abhilash Menon

    As I said, my remarks didnt make me too popular. ;) I knew prejudiced minds would not like it. I mentioned it because I just wanted to notify people who are dedicated to find the real truth, that there is such a possibility also. Real researchers(who will try to verify what I am saying before commenting) with open minds, reading this blog would have noted it. So if you dont like it, just ignore it buddy. :D

    What is the use of doing research and study if you have already decided the outcome? For me, all possibilities hold good until proven otherwise. Hence I refer to BORI, as I was inspired by their excellent work and true scientific mentality. As I mentioned, their study is based on statistical analysis and ancient manuscripts. How can I type the whole thing in a blog? If a researcher is truly interested to get to the truth, he/she will read the books. So you see Mr. I=Indian no shortcuts. ;) For interested parties please refer the book, Ramayana: its Origin and Growth by M.R. Yardi. No one has to go to some institute to get it. It should be available in the local book store or library.

    Some hints to Mr. I=Indians queries according to the book,
    Lord Ram was born not after 1100 BC, which is much earlier than Suta.
    All the 5 redactors of Ramayana have added a total of 10,076 slokas!!! (Please dont tell me to type out the number of each sloka here) ;)
    Harivamshakara has added the whole of Uttarakanda around AD 1.
    Why have they added? No convincing proof for this. How can one know what they were thinking? But the book offers some clues.

    I agree with Mr. I=Indian that even if we prove that Suta added the planet positions, it doesnt prove that it is wrong. There is a possibility (but little probability) that Suta referred some other earlier, now non-extant, document for this.

    Mr. I=Indian, sorry if I confused you with my half baked information (Damn!!! My oven seems to be malfunctioning :D poor joke). And please, I dont have time for the personal arguments and ridiculing that you and your friends have done so well in this site before. So please just ignore me and carry on with your astrological study. Good luck!!! :D

  • ramana

    By the way if any one of you have questions about my Hindu credentials and belief, only one thing to say ..Read all my posts relating to quantum Mechanics .
    or you can visit my blog
    http://scienceofhindu.blogspot.com/

  • ramana

    Idiot, exatcly you know who you are becuase you are absolute idiot..
    No one is impressed by your superficial knowledge.
    You do not know how to debate , only thing you now how to fight..Munish, Pushkarji, me.. and so on..
    The reason I do not respond to things because some of them are childish questions and childish arguments..
    Let me clarify what is my stand on Aryan invasion theory to all of you once and for all !

    1) Neither one of us here are accredited historians

    2) We can not invent theories. we can only discuss theories
    that are well established

    3) The sources that mentioned are not creditable at all!
    The theories that you are all providing are Tamilnation.org and Hindunation.org and Shivasena Manifestos.
    What do you expect from these sites ? absolutely polarized thought. I repeated before, if you build rocket from these sources it won’t go beyond your back yard.!!!
    4) Peer Review process:
    Any theory that is disputed has to be published through prestigious International journals. These are called publications. Before they are being published they go through rigorous review process by extremely authoritative people in that field. In fact very few publications survive this independent process.
    After the publications they go through another round of criticisms.
    5) Experimental verification
    A proposed theory takes years to survive and to become a reality.
    So IT people.. Googled stuff is not reality and you have to go through rigorous academic review process. Until that it is all pure talk!!!
    ATTN: Idiot.. You need to shut the hell up with your big mouth. You met the wrong guy to bully

  • Vijay Kumar Ojha

    Sir
    There are really knowledgeable persons conversing here which gives me great delight. But somehow I have become very wary of this planetary positions thing. Stars do influence ones life … but is it the complete truth?

  • I=Indian

    Abhilash
    Yes you are right. You are indeed a spoil sport. Let me explan why and how.

    Look at the self contradiction in your own post. We are debating about the birth date of Ram, and you are saying that his birth date mentioned was added thousands of years after his birth! Now as you said if we then dont know
    about when he was born at all, then how can you say that it was thousands of years after his birth?

    While you think about it, let us move on…
    For argument’s sake let us assume that Suta added it later, what about other planetary positions like his going to vanavaasa, coming back to ayodhya etc? were all those added by Suta too? Why? So what was there in original ramayana?

    And even if Suta adds is later, what difference does it make? How can you prove that date to be wrong, even if Suta added it later?

    Next, what is the proof that Suta added it later? Now dont tell me to go to some institute and read it, I can ask you to go to ayodhya and excavate 1 km down to find the truth. Will you?

    if you have read and understood BORI findings, then type it out in your comment, if you have not read or understood it then why the heck are you typing something which you yourself dont understand? Cant you see all others typing in proofs/sources/references about their comments?

    There is a saying in english, if you cant convince people, then simply confuse them, and thats exactly what you are doing here by giving half baked information. Simply dont go on mentioning BORI everywhere, they will sue you one day if they see that you are referring their name everywhere without even understanding what they said.

    So either type in detail what you mean, else gup chup.

  • vijay

    Gurudev,

    Plz have a look at the following link:

    http://www.dandavats.com/?p=3576

    they give a detailed explanation of yuga system as it is said in mahabharatha. They clearly show that divya years are indeed time-scale of GODs, and not simple human years.

    Its like saying that an ant feels that its 2 years is like the 100 years of humans. In other words the concept of divya years can be better understood when time space is realized, wherein a person can live a normal life in his time-scale, and an other person elsewhere on a different time-space plane leads his ‘normal’ paced life.
    Now when person A manages to see person B on TV, he would probably see him in very slow motion, but infact person B would be leading his normal paced life according to his time space.

  • Abhilash Menon

    I hate to be a spoil sport in this matter but I feel I have to mention this fact. To accept it or discard it is completely a personal choice I know its not going to make me very popular. ;)
    According to the statistical study as well as study of ancient manuscripts done by BORI, the sarga that mentions the planetary positions during the birth of Lord Ram in Bala Kanda was added by Suta somewhere during the 5th centaury BCE, which is thousands of years after the event of Lord Rams birth!!! So the astronomical positions cannot be taken at face value. If they are right (I think they are. Read their publications to get convinced), all this debate doesnt add much value, does it? ;)

  • vijay

    Thanks Gurudev for helping me and allowing me to post these pictures :)

  • vijay

    With regard to my post of http://hitxp.wordpress.com/2007/09/16/birth-date-of-rama/#comment-6930 I would like to substantiate them with the help of pictures of planetary positions during 5114 BC, 10th Jan.

    http://hitxp.wordpress.com/files/2007/12/moon_start.pdf
    http://hitxp.wordpress.com/files/2007/12/moon_end.pdf
    http://hitxp.wordpress.com/files/2007/12/nakshatra_ending.pdf

    Picture 1. Moon_start.pdf shows the planetary positions on 5114 BC, 10 Jan, 6.30 am at Ayodhya, where we can see that moon has just entered cancer sign.

    Picture 2. Moon_end.pdf shows the planetary positions on 5114 BC, 11 Jan, 2.00 pm at Ayodhya, where we can see that moon is just leaving cancer sign.

    From these two pictures its clear that moon stays in cancer for approximately 32 hours.

    Picture 3. Nakshatra_ending.pdf shows the positions of Jupiter and Moon in Cancer sign. This has a time stamp of 10 am at Ayodhya on 10th Jan 5114 BC, which shows Moon to have passed the Punarvasu Nakshatra and entering Pushya. It is very important to note here that the ascendant at this time is Taurus, and even Gemini hasnt started, forget cancer. Hence there is no question of both the moon being in punarvasu and simultaneously ascendant being in cancer. Hence this date CANNOT be attributed to Lord Rama as his ascendant was cancer along with his nakshatra being punarvasu 4th pada.

  • http://www.hitxp.com/ Gurudev

    Vijay
    The country does not belong to those who rule it, it belongs to the people who live in it.
    The company does not belong to the owner, it belongs to the employees who work for it.
    This blog does not belong to me, it belongs to the readers :)

    As for promises, my perception of promises is not of an absolute nature. When I promise something to somebody that will be purely based on my perception of that person when I made the promise. The moment I realize later that my earlier perception was wrong, the promise does not hold good any longer, for I dont want to live like a foolish hero in those movies who stands his hands tied even when there is injustice, just because he made some stupid promise :)

  • vijay

    Sorry Gurudev,

    I agree that I went a bit far, but this is the dilemma of common Indians, whether we sit quiet in face of purpose bashings from others or give them the taste of their own medicine which they dont like obviously.

    But all said and done, you are ABSOLUTELY RIGHT about Indians’ image to the I’ntl Community, and I am extremely sorry for spoiling your blogsite. I shall promise that I shall maintain dignity, but I dont want this promise to be like the one Gandhiji took from one religion while the other religion was let off ;)

  • http://www.hitxp.com/ Gurudev

    Thanks Ramya!
    Vijay, please email it to me to the said address :)

  • http://www.hitxp.com/ Gurudev

    My sincere request to all readers who comment,
    Please don’t get personal over each other since that will only distract us from the actual issues that are being discussed/debated. Let us not imitate our politicians on this who discuss more about persons than about issues.

    We can agree to disagree over our views. I would love to see intellectual and thought provoking comments, which other international community would appreciate, instead of making other readers fell that Indians are only involved in personal bashing.

    Please note that this request is FOR ALL OF US INCLUDING MYSELF :)

  • vijay

    Thanks again Ramya, and plz feel free to call me just vijay.

    ‘ji’ makes me fell I am uncle/old ;) just kidding :)
    BTW I am still 27 years ‘young’ ;)

    Thanks once again.

  • Ramya

    Vijay-ji

    gurudev’s email – itzguru at gmail dot com

    I knew from this link. email is at the bottom of the page

    http://www.hitxp.com/profile/

  • vijay

    I can almost predict what his jokes might be this time. This time he will ACCUSE me INCORRECTLY and PURPOSELY:

    of calling military immoral as they are non-vegetarians

    of trying to sticking to the Lakh years system of Yugas

    of inciting casteism into India

    of being Hindu fundamentalist

    etc. LOL, I have saved him time from writing this.

  • vijay

    The Joker doesnt even have face to justify his stupid statement on AIT
    “”Ramas birth date is well in coincidence with Aryan invasion.”"

    Some of the jokes by the great joker ;)

    “”If you give them chance they wish India to be ruled by bunch of astrologers.In fact we witnessed, that decadence during Indira Gandhis rule.”"

    “”seriously Do you expect support, from a country , Germany where Aryan supremacy is practiced ?”"

    “”Hinduism is survived hundreds of years if not thousands of years of constant invasions by Moguls ,Turks and Persians.”"

    By all accounts and if you read Ramayana critically Rama is NOT god!

    Ramayanam in my view is full of racial overtones. This book should be banned !!!
    Hint: There are no temples for RAMA

    It defies Darwin evolution theory.

    These fundamentalists can come from any form, they hide between degrees, hide between money some times in women clothes.

    Please feel free to draw conclusions as to who this guy might be and what his intentions are.

    PS: Please wait for the show of the joker to continue, he may have better jokes this time, LOL ;)

  • vijay

    Also, these pdfs contain pictures not written material.

  • vijay

    Gurudev, I need to post some pdf files, can I do that.
    Or is it possible that I email them to you so that you can post them here on my behalf. (I have 3 pdfs to post)

  • vijay

    Hahaha, joker is back with more caste-bashing. He is truly a servant of the invaders (white masters/commies/jihadists, etc) hence goes on talking about how hindus got back to normalcy even though they were killed by other fundamentalists. These people forget that because of preciesly this nature hinduism is being bashed up by one and all and is taken for granted, and these people never talk of fighting the jihadists, commies, etc. Their only aim is to divide Indian on basis of hindu caste, which in any case many ave dumped long ago, so that hindus get divided and get killed by their jihadi masters. But let them have no doubt, that that this is not going to happen as they are on the wrong side and AS ALWAYS TRUTH WINS. People like these are a curse to India, as they let in the enemies of India from the back door in the disguise of secularism. They are like Ambi Kumar of Takshashila who let the greeks into India and invited him to kill all his subjects just because he wanted to appease other fundamentalists and bash up their own people.

    Hahahaha, let these jokers go home and get some sleep as they need to think of more pseudo-secularism to write tomorrow. For all we know these guys may be christian fundamentalists themselves who are hell bent on erasing the world of hinduism, else which sane person can tolerate the conversion tactics of Andhra Govt, wherein they have christians as decision makers to Tirupati Devastanam. Have you ever heard of a hindu being a trustee for a church or infact for a mosque.

  • ramana

    What a joke! These fundamentalists ( I am going to call them now on wards Fundas for short) wanted to save the Hinduvata and India.?
    Hinduism is survived hundreds of years if not thousands of years of constant invasions by Moguls ,Turks and Persians. Resilience of Hindus ad Hinduism is nothing short of legendary./. These fundas are trying very hard to make Hinduism to look like other religions following the path of lowest denomination.

    Ladies and gentleman. .Do not mistake about these fundas. and their intentions!!.
    Now they talk about religion . Yesterday they hated our defense people who serve and protect our country. Tomorrow they bring back caste system in to the front lines.
    They do not like the fact that duly and democratically elected chief minister of Andhra Pradesh is Christian. .They look at diversity as weakness not strength.
    You all know where it is exactly going.. These fundas come in all shapes, sizes, religions, castes and creed.. Religious wars , communal riots, chaos, confusion is their home base.
    It is just beginning!!
    Indias greatest strength is its religious tolerance. Please do not make me sympathetic to fundamentalists of any other religions. I hate all fundamentalists! They are antithesis to GOD!!

  • Vijay

    This is what the ‘secular’ / ‘non-fundamentalist’ groups are doing against Hinduism, which some people neglect on purpose and inturn bash their own Hindu brothers accusing them of ‘fundamentalism’.

    http://news.in.msn.com/international/article.aspx?cp-documentid=1153084

    Seems that Andhra congress is truly headed for christianity at the cost of hisndu extermination, some say that the CM is a converted christian. This was what that was feared by Vikrama in his post of 26th Nov
    http://hitxp.wordpress.com/2007/09/16/birth-date-of-rama/#comment-5925

    Hope atleast now our ‘hindu-fundamentalist-hater’ has got the point that hinduism is going to be exterminated within few centuries if we dont even stand up now.

  • Vijay

    Please go thru the following URL which give a deep insight about macaulay’s education ‘reforms’.

    http://www.languageinindia.com/april2003/macaulay.html

    I copy below a para from macaulay’s minute, which is being followed even today, i.e., of simply bashing up sacred texts which are written in sanskrit.

    “”It is laid down that the vernacular dialects are not fit to be made the vehicle of instruction in science or literature, that the choice is therefore between English on one hand and Sanscrit and Arabic on the other-the latter are dismissed on the ground that their literature is worthless and the superiority of that of England is set forth in all animated description of the treasures of science and of intelligence it contains and of the stores of intellectual enjoyment it opens.”"

    The language part is just the beginning, the other very disturbing part is when he writes about 1857 in his diary:

    “”The cruelties of the sepoys have inflamed the nation to a degree unprecedented within my memory. Peace Societies, and Aborigines Protection Societies, and Societies for the Reformation of Criminals, are silenced. There is one terrible cry for revenge. The account of that dreadful military execution at Peshawur,–forty men blown at once from the mouths of cannon,–their heads, legs, arms flying in all directions,–was read with delight by people who three weeks ago were against all capital punishment. Bright himself declares for the vigorous suppression of the mutiny. The almost universal feeling is that not a single sepoy within the walls of Delhi should be spared; and I own that it is a feeling which I cannot help sympathizing”"

    Even after reading about this arrogant, inhumane fellow if someone feels what he said is right, what else can I say other than that he is being a loyal servant of his white master.

  • http://www.hitxp.com/ Gurudev

    Ramas birth date is well in coincidence with Aryan invasion.!!!

    Ramana, I am deeply disappointed by this statement. Now can you please support your statement.

    Aryan Invasion theory was said to be in 1500 BCE and this is how Max Muller & co (sponsored by Macaulay who wanted to rewrite Indian history) arrived at this date of 1500 BCE

    “”According the then prevalent Christian belief (taught even today in some of the western schools run by evangelists!), God created the universe in 4004 BCE! Muller strongly believed in this and chose 2448 BCE as the date of the biblical flood. Then he allowed 1000 years for the water to subside!! Now how can he allow vedas or anything to be dated before these events, that would go against his beliefs! So he assigned a rough date of 1200-1500 BCE to the Rigveda, the oldest HE CAN ALLOW without compromising HIS BELIEFS!”"

    Now as for the Myth of Aryan Invasion theory, please go through these
    http://www.hinduwisdom.info/aryan_invasion_theory.htm
    and
    http://hitxp.wordpress.com/2007/06/28/the-myth-of-aryan-invasion-theory/

    Now how on earth does 1500 BCE and 5114 BCE coincide?

    Let me repeat, Aryan Invasion Theory is the worst racist theory ever created purely based on prejudice with no facts supporting it, with an intention of dividing north and south Indians, and to prove the European supremacy over Asians, and the creation of this theory was funded by Macaulay who was determined to rewrite ancient Indian history to make future generations of Indians feel inferior about their own culture and heritage, which is why the British started English education in India.

  • http://www.hitxp.com/ Gurudev

    Abhilash
    The units are mentioned in detail in Vishnu Purana and Surya Siddhanta to a large extent

  • Vijay

    “”Ramas birth date is well in coincidence with Aryan invasion.”" Hahaha, its very true that its not me who is fascinated about somethings, looks like someone here is blindly following what his white masters have taught him, LOL ;) and goes on hating fundamentalists like us ;) even though we never have harmed anyone unlike the fundamentalists of other religions.

    Can someone please explain to the supporters of aryan invasion theory that their white masters themselves have thrown this to garbage, because they couldnt explain how Lord Rama’s ancestors (raghu vansha) existed much before their so called aryan invasion theory, LOL.

  • Vijay

    Thanks once again Ramya :) that was very helpful of you. I shall try it out next time.

  • Vijay

    Dear All, in continuation of my post of Dec 18th, 7:31 pm, I would like to point out few important things that I somehow missed earlier. They would of course probably clear up everyone’s mind that this date of 10th Jan of 5114 BC cannot be called as Lord Rama’s DOB.

    First of all Lord Rama is said to have been born in Punarvasu Nakshatra of Kataka Rashi (cancer sign). Punarvasu nakshatra occurs in both Gemini and Cancer (first 3 padas in Gemini and last 1 pada in Cancer). Hence its obvious that Lord Rama must have been born in Punarvasu 4th pada. Also simultaneously we need to keep in mind that Lord’s Ascendant was in cancer. And each ascendant sign has an approximate period of nearly 2 hours in a day, i.e., all 12 ascendants occurs in a 24 hour day.

    Now if we go back to the Planetarium Software, and put in
    -5115, 10th Jan, 06.30 am, we see that the ascendant of aries has just started (which is what is expected, because Sun is in aries and we get sun in ascendant during the sunrise during this entire month of aries).
    Now let us find out during what times does moon stay in cancer. By trial and error we can easily see that moon enters cancer at around 6 am on 10th jan, and leaves cancer on 2pm on 11th of Jan. So Moon stays in Cancer for approximately about 32 hours.

    Now, we know that Moon of Lord Rama must be between 0-3.3 degrees of cancer (which is where punarvasu 4th pada is). Also we know that each zodiac sign is divided into 30 degrees. Hence let us calculate How long does it take for moon to travel 1 degree in cancer.
    30 degrees = 32 hours, hence
    1 degree = 1.0666667 hours.
    Hence 3.3 degrees = 3.52 hours = 3 and 1/2 hours.

    Now as moon started in cancer at 6am on 10th jan, add 3 1/2 hours to this, which gives 9.30 am. Hence Rama must have been born between 6 am and 9.30 am on 10th jan for his moon to be in punarvasu 4th pada.

    But here comes the crucial part, remember that Lord’s ascendant was also in cancer. So what happens her. Lo, by trial and error we can see that cancer ascendant starts only at around 11.30 am and ends at around 1 pm. We can also see that at 9.30 am, the ascendant has not even entered Gemini, forget Cancer. This is a VERY IMPORTANT point to note, because these 2-3 hours are very crucial in one’s horoscope. The horoscope completely depends on which ascendant one is born in. Hence this is very significant. These kinds of analyses are basic to astrology, please do verify all that I have said yourself and you would automatically come to the conclusion that -5115 BC is just one of the many possiblities where all planets as placed as said by Valmiki, but they dont satisfy the most crucial aspect, that of ascendant sign being cancer. Hence, we must continue our serach for such a date where all the planets are as mentioned by Valmiki and also the ascendant is in cancer. Getting this combination might be impossible as of present Planetarium software but, who knows in near future we might get to decode the TRUE DOB of LORD RAMA.

  • Ramya

    Great debate. Gururaj and Vijay are discussing to the best points of topics. Both are asking the same question of having link to previous comment / message.
    I found a way to link :two ways
    one way:
    please check the latest feedback widget.
    click the required comment and check the url for comment #
    Gururaj ‘s last comment—
    for e.g. http://hitxp.wordpress.com/2007/09/16
    /birth-date-of-rama/#comment-6911

    other way: click at date and time stamp that will give the comment #.

    It may not be clear . but it will present that message at least to the top of page.
    hope it helps all. This is not so feasible yet a suggestive alternative.

  • ramana

    Pushkarji,
    You well withstood the so called peer review by fundamentalists and crackpots .
    These fundamentalists believe in what they want to believe in.If you give them chance they wish India to be ruled by bunch of astrologers.In fact we witnessed, that decadence during Indira Gandhis rule .Fundamentalists calling names is one of their traits and it is part of their bullying.
    They have total disregard for the truth. Pushkarji.. seriously Do you expect support, from a country , Germany where Aryan supremacy is practiced ? some of those people deny the Holocaust even today.

    You did outstanding job. You let your work do the job, and you let the pieces fall in where they supposed to be. Truth hurts.. Ramas birth date is well in coincidence with Aryan invasion. In fact I will encourage you to write to NASA as the author of the published book .In fact , they do reply.

    Your social commitment to fellow humans is commendable, particularly for children.Indian constitution must guarantee the inalienable rights for all their citizens , particularly their children, three meals a day for their living, education for their wisdom, spirituality for their well being.

    Please do share your contact information and your work..

  • vijay

    Thanks Gururaj :)

  • vijay

    Thanks Sainath for showing the interest. Of course I am here to share and debate whatever little I know. In astrology there are many conditions wherein one can have RajaYoga. RajaYoga literally means that one can climb to the level of Raja even if he is born very poor. In olden days it was taken to be Raja himself, but as nowadays we have democracy, we view Raja Yoga as something which gives immense wealth, pleasures, happiness, vehicles, respect, power, fame, etc. Hence a big businessman, big film star, Big politician might have these Rajayogas. Infact there are many different types of RajaYogas depending on the planets that are causing these Rajayogas. Example Venus exalted in 10th house, with jupiter exalted in 2nd house (for Gemini Ascendent) we have a Rajayoga wherein the person can be at the top in film industry. There are many yogas like these.

    Even though there are top film stars, politicians, businessmen, etc, we have to note that these guys are not supreme, in the sense that not equivalent to a supreme ruler. For such a kind of person we need to have a grand rajayoga like that of Lord Rama, Ravana, Lord Krishna. They were absolute rulers, in the sense that there was no opposition by subordinates, they had full control over their subjects, they had full control over their senses, they were extremely rich and enjoyed all pleasures, lived extravagant lives, and had the power to influence others life.

    Its interesting to note one such equivalent of Hitler who had some control over millions of people (note that he was born on april 20th) and his sun was in 9 degrees exaltation in aries, hence there was literally no opposition for him. Everyone bowed before him. Also note Tendulkar’s DOB (April 24th) again 11 degrees of exaltation and look at his fan following, they fall at his feet even if he hits a 0.

    Regarding your question as to whether there might be simple exaltations of planets (which is a necessary condition) and still have rajayoga, its not quite possible. this is because with other degrees of exaltation, the other divisional charts get messed up, giving less power, like the (navamsha, dashamsha, chathurvimshamsha, Hora, etc) which control many aspects of life like later part of life, occupation, studies, wealth, etc. But once we have all planets in exact degrees of exaltation, there is no need to see any of these charts no matter how bad planets are placed in them. Hence my fascination towards exact exaltation. Of course I am completely open to debate and criticism, unlike others ;)

    But you asked another interesting question regarding Rama’s vanavasa. As Lord was born in 4th pada of Punarvasu nakshatra (whose lord is jupiter and jupiter’s dasha is 16 years), at birth time jupiter dasha might have just 3 years in its dasha, then comes saturn dasha which is 19 years, after which (at age of around 22) comes the mercury dasha of 17 years. Its very interesting to note here that mercury is debilitated (weakest position, though with its house lord exalted) and hence bad effects started. Hence till 39 years of age (3+19+17), Rama couldnt get Rajayoga because of this mercury. But after that is ketu Dasha which is ok, but still in debilitation, hence again he didnt have family happiness (agnipravesha by which HE himself was distressed, etc).

    Its very interesting to note here that, Ravana’s horoscope also has these rajayogas, the only difference being the placements of ascendant and moon. I am not quite sure about moon, but ascendant was in Libra. hence though he was equivalent to Rama in Prowess, he didnt have that much of self-control and hence finally went to the path of destruction. It very interesting to see that as the same planetary positions must have taken thousands of years to repeat itself, then how come Ravana was born thousands of years before Rama. We all know that it is mentioned in many texts about stories of Ravana much before Raghuvamsha. Like the one where he fights with Karthyaveerarjuna, and get imprisoned in his prison, and later Lord Shiva asks his disciple Parashurama to get Ravana out of the prison. There is also another story where in Ravana fights with Bali and gets chained to Bali’s son’s cradle. Hence if we believe in these texts then we must accept that Ravana was thousands of years older then Rama, which is what is the general belief. And this belief is just not a myth, when we look at it from an astrological/astronomical angle, as both of their DOB’s have same planetary positions and hence must have been thousands of years apart. This is very IMPORTANT as this reinforces the yuga system of lakhs of years, which also mentions that kings of treta yuga, satya yuga ruled for thousands of years, for which non-believers laugh. So either one believes in what these sacred-texts say (and not partially like just believing only Valmiki’s work and completely ignoring other sages’ works), or just push aside all these texts all together and say that I is a non-believer. Please feel free to point any of my mistakes.

    Cheers,
    Vijay.

  • vijay

    Mr. Pushkar,

    Thanks for replying back. First of all you seem to have a notion about particular people based on whether they praise your work or critically debate it. I am extremely sorry but I am not of the habit of praising people.

    I didnt claim any findings, but it is you who has written a book and this means that when it is read by people world over it becomes a standard and somewhat undebatable. But once people like me with genuine doubts ask some questions, you seem to show utmost arrogance, which even Einstein would not have had. GOD knows whether you would have spit on a person for asking doubts if you had been Einstein. It is not me who is fascinated about particular things like Yuga system in Lakhs of years, or age of earth, infact it is you who is stuck with your findings, and because you were able to extract this date, you some how seem to not like it being debated.

    Of course Valmiki had said very little with regard to the planetary positions, but does it mean that we can take whatever we like (any degree between 0 to 30) to satisfy ourselves. If you dont know anything about astrology, fine, dont bother reading it, because you wont understand even ABC of it. You seem to have blocked your mind to just astronomy, and to the truth that astrology was in the first instance a reason for Valmiki to note down the astronomical positions, else what information can we gain from the planetary positions. All these planetary positions are only required for the sake of astrology. If you have any other use of these planetary positions, please share your knowledge with poor souls like us. Also if you have read Ramayana I hope you definitely must have, you must have heard that the KulGuru, Vashishta Muni predicts the future of all 4 brothers when they were born, and its common sense that he must have used astrological science to do that prediction with the help of planetary positions.

    Finally, regarding the other dates that you mentioned, infact I was trying to find solar eclipses myself, but good that you gave the dates now. But I hope its common sense that there are many solar eclipses and lunar eclipses that occur and it neednt be astonishing that these happened at some dates after 5114 BC. Does that mean that we outrightly reject other dates such as ones before 5114 BC.

    And regarding your letters to MAX Planck Institute and NASA, please dont bother writing them, they will anyway end up in dustbins and your self-esteem would be hurt.

    Please go back to my very first post, and look at the way you have replied to me, who had genuine doubts and infact had liked what you had done.

    Its also funny that there are people on this forum who dont believe in Rama’s existence, and like to ban Ramayana, accuse of racism in Ramayana and they are praising your work. You might be getting pleasure by such praises from unworthy hypocrites, but sorry I was here to debate with you having accepted that you have done a commendable job. You dont seem to hear to what I have said, I COMMEND you for your efforts, but in my own capacity am asking my doubts. But now forget it, it seems you are stuck with your research and have closed it to reviews. Being in the forefront of Genetic Research, let me tell you this, even the journal papers of top professors here are rigorously debated and peer-reviewed. Its not me who is closed for debate, its you. The fact that I took pains to see for myself what you have done and try to openly share it with people here, shows how serious I was with your work. But you seem to be of the notion that people need not review your work. Anyway thanks for sharing your knowledge, and please dont reply back as I shall not be commenting anymore on your work.

    And GOD bless you and your family for the good works you have been doing in your life.

    Cheers,
    Vijay.

  • Pushkar Bhatnagar

    Dear Sainath and Ramana

    From the core of my heart, I am thankful and indebted to you for your kind words.

    Sainath Ji, I appreciate that you remembered what I said in one of my posts as a passing remark that I support some families in Orissa.

    Yes, it is a fact that I make a small and very inadequate contribution to my fellow citizens of this country. I happened to see the poverty there with my own eyes. I noted that people live in sub-human conditions.

    The families that I support are the ones where the earning member is either dead or is handicapped. Mainly these families have only children, aged persons and women. Some families have earning members but they are too poor to feed two square meals to their children. You will be shocked that to their young children, they feed very small quantities of food at around 4 p.m. in the evening so that it takes care of both lunch and dinner. One meal, that too not full, for young children of 8-9 years. They have nothing more to eat. Just imagine, what is the fault of these young ones, they even do not understand the reason for their misery. And they do not ask for moon either. What they demand is just two full meals a day. I also have two young children and I know how painful it is if they ask for something and I am not in a position to give it to them.

    I found that rice is the staple diet there and good quality of rice, that they prefer to eat, costs only about Rs. 8/- to 9/- per kg. One family, of 5-6 persons, needs about 25 kg. of rice for the entire month. So a mere 200 rupees can support a family of 6 persons for a full month. For those who stay in metros what is the value of Rs. 200/- ? Perhaps a movie ticket costs this much but for those persons in Orissa, it means food for one family for one full month.

    When I began this work, I used to send Rs. 6000/- per month as we had identified only 30 families. My own local contact there in Bhadrak, buys the rice locally and distributes to these families on a particular day once a month. Of course, now my family has enlarged. From 30 it has now extended to 57 homes. For doing this, I have to save from avoidable expenditure. I do not take my children out for dinner, I have not shown them a movie in a picture hall for last several years and I buy only most limited cloths and so on.

    Now that winter has set in, I have arranged for some woolens by requesting my relatives, neighbours and friends here in Delhi and these will be carried by one of my friends who is going there on 24th December.

    So, these are the details of my part time passion and I decided to post the same because contrary to the normal perception, it does not cost much to support a family. All of us are capable of doing such work, all that is needed is a small initiative.

    Thanks once again.

    Regards

    Pushkar

  • Pushkar Bhatnagar

    Dear Vijay

    Now that you have yourself seen the results with the help of software, you have found something worth an appreciation in my findings, and I am really thankful to you for taking this initiative. I would now request you to read some of my earlier posts where I said the following things:

    I am not an astrologer. I have no interest in astrology.. So Raja yoga, etc is none of my business. You are trying to ascertain the position of planets (Rahu, Ketu) on the basis of OPINION of some astrologers. You are free to do whatever you think is more appropriate but please give a small thought to the question

    Why cant we confine to what Valmiki had said in the book?
    Why do we want to read more than what is said therein.
    Why should we add our meaning to it?

    Valmiki has just mentioned that planets were in these zodiacs. He has not mentioned the exact degrees where these planets were located, within the zodiac. So why should one give that extra meaning to it. Working out degrees for the exaltation must have been a later phenomenon. It is not found atleast in Rig Veda / other three Vedas or Ramayana (literature that I have read several, I repeat several, times). When this concept, of exaltation in terms of degrees was not in vogue, at the time of writing the text, why this should be used today to interpret that very text? Will it not tantamount to distorting the meaning of the text?

    Solution to your next problem, about repetition of planetary positions, is simple. Now that you have the software, you can yourself verify whether these planetary positions repeat at least up to 99,999 BC. I had mentioned earlier also and I repeat these positions do not repeat up to 99,999 BC and I have personally verified this fact with the help of the software.

    But yes, you are a believer of Lakhs of years theory, so for your special interest I am writing a letter to NASA to develop a software that can trace back the planetary positions up to about 4.54 billion years ago, because unless someone verifies the planetary positions right form the day of formation of solar system, you will not accept any date as DOB of Lord Ram. So there is no point in wasting time on this matter further. Let NASA help you out.

    Last but not the least, you are still stuck only at the first date of my findings the date of birth. I have mentioned clearly in my earlier posts that not one but atleast a dozen planetary positions spread over 39 years tally. Repetition of one planetary combination is still understandable but repetition of a series of planetary combinations is still rarer.

    Now that you have the software, why dont you put the date 7th October 5077 BC, change the latitudes / longitudes to 20 deg. North and 73 deg. East (for Panchwati) keep the time at 2.15 p.m. and see whether a solar eclipse occurs or not. This eclipse is mentioned by Valmiki to have occurred in the last quarter of the thirteenth year of exile of Lord Ram when he fought a battle with Khar Dushan. (Please read my post of 8th November, it has all the details.)

    You may also see if a lunar eclipse occurred on 12 Sept. 5076 BC or not in the evening (6.45 p.m.) keeping coordinates for SRI LANKA, when Hanuman visited Sita Ji.

    So it is not the question of repetition of planetary positions of only the DOB of Lord Rama. It is a matter of repetition of all these astronomical events like eclipses again and again in the past.

    But of course, I am sure you will not like to accept this date and I will patiently wait for NASA to send me that special software.

    Pushkar

  • Gururaj

    very good analysis Vijay (message at December 18, 2007 at 7:31 pm).

    Gurudev: Is it possible to have a message number for each message, so that people can reply to specific comments by quoting the number?
    What I have seen here is that instead of just commenting, people are taking stances which I dont think is healthy ;also some are indulging in prising people over the top as a way of retaliation.

  • sainath

    vijay,

    can you please put the exact meaning of rajayoga….i mean what is the exact context to be termed as a rajayoga
    and also can there be case possible where necessary conditions are there but not sufficient and still a person can have rajayoga….any exceptions….which i believe is not possible according to you or jyotishividya.
    Also is it possible that since necessary conditions were there for Lord Rama he had rajayoga but since all sufficient conditions were not there, even if he became raja could not enjoy or be happy with it or so…

    if possible, please throw some light on this…

    Thanks,
    Sainath

  • sainath

    Pushkarji,

    I feel really grateful to read all your comments and have regards for you for all the painstaking efforts you have put in. I also admire and think that you have tried to put very logical reasoning to your analysis of DOB of Lord Rama and also tried to answer all queries from anyone with logical reasonings of whatever i have understood through above readings. I can understand your pain to try and answer or justify every and anyone who raises doubt or concern over the years, it is really not an easy task i feel…

    I felt proud of you when read about you supporting around 57 families and sad that your a cancer patient.

    I hope that your analysis and logical reasoning to be proved correct one day by some means and even if it is proved incorrect by some way, your sincere efforts will be rememberd always….

    All The Best to you

    Thanks and Regards,
    Sainath

  • ramana

    I am great fan of Hinduism but not fan of fundamentalists of any affiliation either Hindu, Muslim, Christian.
    These fundamentalists can come from any form, they hide between degrees, hide between money some times in women clothes.
    I always say science and religion produce miracles but in science miracle can be repeated.
    Mr.Pushkarji , you did out standing job. Congratulations.
    I feel your frustration that convincing fundamentalists that Puranas are inconsistent some times.It is hard to swallow for them..
    some of the people here twist science to fit our puranas and our religious beliefs.
    India is secular country and should remain as a secular country.
    Hinduism virtues are not with these fundamentalist but with
    learned scholars and people like you pushkarji!

  • vijay

    Hello All,

    Below is a piece of information which I hope someone might find useful to keep the debate more healthier/interesting/educational/etc.

    Please try this for yourself by downloading the following Planetarium Software available on trial for a few days from the URL:

    http://www.download.com/Planetarium-Gold/3000-2054_4-10707646.html

    This is software by Fogware Publishing through which one can view the planets, galaxies, etc along with the various constellational positions. Please note that the constellations we are interested in are Aries, Taurus, Gemini, etc. Look out for these in the 3-D Graphic. Also you can view the positions of the 7 planets (sun, moon, Jupiter, Saturn, Venus, mars, mercury) present in any of these 12 constellations which is more interesting from an astrological point of view.

    Once you unzip the files to a folder, open the file “”Sswpro”" which starts the application. Before starting, please follow the below commands for better viewing, else you may get confused with all the galaxies, stars, etc.

    1. Display -> Constellation -> Scientific

    2. Display -> Fixed Star Label -> None

    3. Display -> Galaxy -> None

    4. Display -> Solar System -> English

    5. Display -> Comet(K) -> None

    6. Make the Location as New Delhi India

    7. Close the “”Solar System”" and “”Moon”" Windows

    8. Display -> Line (UNtick this)

    9. Display -> Picture (UNtick this)

    10. Display -> Boundary (tick this)

    11. Display -> Twilight (tick this)

    Now you must be able to easily spot the 6 planets and Sun. Now as far as Mr. Pushkar Bhatnagar’s estimation of 5114 BC, Press F6, and the TIME window must appear. Here we can type in the time that we want (-5115 Y, 01 M, 10 D, 11 H : 52 M) Press “”apply”" and then “”ok”", and you should observe that the planets are indeed in the constellations mentioned according to Lord Rama’s DOB. i.e.,
    SUN in Aries,
    Moon, Jupiter in Cancer,
    Saturn in Libra,
    Mars in Capricorn,
    Venus and Mercury in Pisces.
    The ascendant of Cancer is obtained around noon time (for approximately 2 hours), hence I took 11:52 am as the birth time.

    All planets except moon and mercury are in exaltation (very strong positions). Moon is in his own sign (cancer) and Mercury is debilitated. Till now everything is perfect, infact Mr. Pushkar Bhatnagar has done a very commendable job by extracting this date. (how he does that I didnt quite understand looking at the software, hope he sheds light on this). Infact I congratulate him and anyone else involved in using this software for such purposes.

    But here starts the trouble for me and hence I had put forward some doubts on this forum. According to astrology, for a rajayoga, the above combinations are very fine, but still not enough. Its like saying according to algebra “”necessary but not sufficient”" condition for rajayoga. The sufficient condition for the horoscope of a person such as Lord Rama is that all these exaltations take place at the highest degree of exaltation within the zodiac sign.
    Sun – Aries, 10 degrees.
    Saturn – Libra, 20 degrees
    Mars – Capricorn, 28 degrees
    Venus – Pisces, 27 degrees
    Jupiter – Cancer, 5 degrees
    Moon – Taurus, 3 degrees
    Mercury – Virgo, 15 degrees.

    In the horoscope that we have at hand, Moon is in cancer, own house, hence very good. As it is placed with ascendant and Jupiter its even more good (i.e., moon + Jupiter forms “”GajaKesari Yoga”"). Mercury is in debilitation in Pisces (weakest position), but since the lord of Pisces (Jupiter) is exalted, this forms “”NeechaBhanga Rajayoga”", which is also very good.

    Now, does the DOB of 5115BC, 10th Jan, give these planets in these degrees? This was my doubt. And looking at their placements in the software (which doesnt precisely specify the degrees of placement of planets in zodiac signs) it seems that (approximately):
    1. Sun is in 5 degrees of Aries (which is not fine)
    2. Jupiter is in 20 degrees in Cancer (which is not fine)
    3. Moon doesnt quite seem to be in Punarvasu 4th pada, i.e., between 0.0 to 3.3 degrees in cancer (which is not fine)
    4. Saturn seems to be at around 20 degrees in Libra (which is fine)
    5. Mars seems to be in 10 degrees in Capricorn (which is not fine)
    6. Venus seems to be at 25 degrees in Pisces (which is fine)

    Hence, probably this might not be the true DOB, (this was my analysis, and anyone please help me out if I am wrong). Above all this, we still dont know where Rahu and Ketu (shadow planets) were placed for this DOB, which many astrologers are of the opinion that Rahu and Ketu must have been debilitated in Sagittarius and Gemini respectively.

    Also the most IMPORTANT point we need to keep in mind is that, this software goes back in time only up to 99999 BC, hence this planetary combination OR infact the perfect planetary placement (with the precise degrees of exaltation) might have occurred innumerable times before 99999 BC (or even between 99999 BC and 5115 BC) Hence I was very hesitant in accepting the DOB of 5115 BC as the actual DOB.

    This gives rise to many such unanswered questions, without answering which one CANNOT label a DOB for Lord Rama, which otherwise might be misused by some vested interests for Hindu-Bashing.

    Nevertheless, such studies bring out the truth that astrology/astronomy were the Precious Gift of our ancient civilization to the entire world, which some western intellectuals claim to have originated in the west. Its just awesome how these sages had so much power that they explained all these astronomical phenomena in such detail. I bow with utmost humbleness at their feet.

  • Abhilash Menon

    Can anyone please tell me exactly which of the hindu texts gives the definitions of the units of time and its divisions?

  • Ram

    From the little knowledge of astrology i have, and assuming Shri Pushkar Bhatnagar’s calculation is correct on the prediction of Shri Rama’s b’date, i have few questions. First of all, i have seen the “”horoscope”" of Shri Rama in one of the text books way back in 1999. It had Sun, Jupiter, Mars and Saturn exalted (Ucha). Going by Pushkar Bhatnagar’s DOB, Sun is not exalted in that position. Sun will not be in Aries for people born between Dec 15/16th thro Jan 15/16th.
    Am I missing something here? Can anybody explain more?

  • vijay

    No need for you to touch my feet, as I may be an untouchable to learned people like you ;) BTW, if you have some free time from your Government IRS, please dont hesitate to come over to Munich, I shall show you around :) even take you to the MAX Planck Institute.

  • Pushkar Bhatnagar

    OMG,

    You are studying ‘computational genetics for a PhD”". Really awe inspiring. Amazing.

    I am on the floor. Where are your feet ??

  • vijay

    Hahaha, LOL, man finally someone proved here that MOORKHAN VIDYA KADAAPI VINAYAM NADADAATHI. This is for someone who can read sanskrit ;)

    If someone has so many problems with ancient vedic texts, could they please leave this forum and let the fools (like us) discuss these irrelevent texts. By the way our “”intelligent”" person I bet would never have seen or will never see MAX Planck Institute his lifetime.

    This is what I wanted to prove to others on this forum. Some people are just here for the sake of bashing. They are of the mentality of Hindu-text bashing, Caste-bashing, astrology-bashing, sanskrit-bashing, etc. And these guys talk of modern science as though others have no idea about it. They forget that there are some people on this forum studying computational genetics for a PhD, and simultaneously has some knowledge about ancient civilization which supplements their research. BTW, I am glad that atleast someone assumed I was a sanskrit pandit ;) which I am not, thanks for this credit.

  • Pushkar Bhatnagar

    oops!

    This letter was to be sent to the concerned person, but by mistake got posted above.

  • Pushkar Bhatnagar

    To
    Max Plank Society,
    Munich.

    Dear Sir,

    I find that you have unnecessarily employed 9000 Ph. Ds., visiting scientists and experts and incurring huge expenditure in maintaining such a large and bulky establishment. Without any reason, you have created such an aura around your institute’s name that everyone thinks that you are a doing some worthwhile research.

    You are unnecessarily trying to re-invent the wheel by going into the simple questions like how old is universe, how old is our civilization, genetics and evolution of Man.

    I can’t help laughing at the juvenile timeline for the evolution of man based on your research reports. You should think twice before publishing such useless reports which say that Homo Sapiens came into existence just 2,50,000 years ago, or Neanderthals lived till as recently as 30,000 years ago. How childish and such a waste of efforts on your part.

    Please send your scientists to India. They just need to read and understand correctly what is mentioned in our ancient scriptures. We have full documented history of the evolution of man who existed from the days even earlier than your estimate of earth formation. Much before you think Big Bang occurred, Man was living in India. We will tell you what Manavantra it was and who was the Manu. I think that is more than enough of evidence that should satisfy you about the accuracy of the text.

    You will need some good lecturers on the subject and I have very bright and promising youngsters in mind for the job. They are all well versed in Sanskrit which I am sure you people do not know and that is why you all have remained so ignorant thus far.

    So, close down your futile research institutes forthwith and do not publish juvenile research reports about history of man or age of universe.

    I hope this will prevent the foolish wastage of time, money and efforts by the so called ‘renowned scientists’ and the same would be utilised for other important works.

    Your’s etc

    Pushkar Bhatnagar

  • Pushkar Bhatnagar

    Dear Indian (I refer to your first post in this message)

    I fail to understand what has offended you?

    I said there are about a ‘dozen of units’ about time span in Purans. You are also quoting it. What is wrong in it. You have yourself listed in your post, 15 units of time span begining from Nimisha to Kalpa. If I said there were about a dozen of them what was so grossly wrong in it?

    I used the word ‘UNIT’ of time. What else do we call it? Like a second, minute, hour, day, week, month, year, decade and so on. These are called Units of time in this part of the country (Delhi). I do not know why the usage of word UNIT was so unacceptable to you or where did I go wrong or what further you have clarified.

    Merely because a set of units of time is given in Purans – what help does it render in the verification purposes. Does it automatically proves that people lived 35,000 years in treta Yuga?

    Yojan is another unit given in Puran to measure length. Fine let there be a dozen other units – Hasta, Angul, Balist. But does that automatically proves that Moon is located at a distance of 1 Lakh yojan above Sun!! Or Banyan trees of the height of 132 Kms. found on Mount Sumeru which was itself 1,08,000 Kms in height.

    The issue here is how reliable are the numbers used in Purans to describe various concepts. Span of time is unlimted and any number will fill in but the height of a mountain, inter-planetary distances and height of tree are all verifiable today. How the numbers mentioned in Purans, in respect of these verifiable quantities, tally with the actual figures should definitely throw light on their authenticity and correctness.

    Pushkar

  • vijay

    True I=Indian, I congratulate you and similar guys who have taken the pain to study the vedas and puranas as they are. Even I look forward for the day when I shall be able to read them.

    I also congratulate guys like Gurudev who have taken pain to interpret these sacred texts as they are without corrupting their true meanings. Infact I always keep waiting for some comment from Gurudev as he gives a very logical, scientific explainations to these texts without bashing them up unnecessarily.

    Finally, I also congratulate people like Pushkar who have done astronomical datings and have atleast proved to the western world that astronomy is not their hegemony, though I completely dont agree with his attributing of Lord Rama’s DOB to a particular date, because there may be many more dates before 5000 BC when such astronomical events took place. Also I dont agree with his views that one shouldnt be on such forums if he doesnt show off his knowledge ;)

  • I=Indian

    Vijay
    I dont want to repeat things which have already been said by Gurudev. Having studied the puranas and vedas myself I can assure you, he makes a lot of sense. Read his posts and comments. Mind you, I have not read any “”translations”" of veda puranas.

    Gurudeb
    Keep up the good work. At the same time dont get carried away by anything.

    Pushkar
    There is definitely an element of truth to what you said. There are some books which have been written recently but are also called Puranas. But that doesnt mean that the ancient puranas are wrong. Puranas themselves mean History. Those were the texts written by ancient Indians to document the then history.
    So as new History keeps getting created what is wrong if people write new Puranas?

  • vijay

    Very good I=Indian, thanks for the info. Its truly astonishing that puranas told something so precise about time units long back before the new world could comprehend what time really was. Look forward to gain more knowledge from guys like you.

    The burning desire that I have is to get an answer for the Biggest question
    “”where does universe end, does it have a boundary?
    if it has one, there should be something beyond this boundary, and this goes on till infinity. Where is the real end of this infinity?
    or is there no end for this universe?
    how can our brain comprehend this infinity?”"

  • I=Indian

    Mr Pushkar
    Where did the dozens of units about time span come from? It sounds as though you are saying that there are contradicting units of time span in Puranas.. No there arent any…

    I have studied the entire puranas, and there is only complete set of units of time which spans from life of the universe till 1/5 of a second as follows

    Life of entire universe (Brahma) divided into Kalpas
    which are divided into Manvantaras
    which are divided into Mahayuga
    which are divided into Yuga
    which are divided into Deva years
    which are divided into samvatsara (1 year on earth)
    which are divided into aayana (6 months of sun’s journey between equinoxes)
    which are divided into Ritus (seasons on earth)
    which are divided into maasas (moths)
    which are divided into pakshas (lunar cycles from newmoon to full moon and vice versa)
    which are divided into days
    which are divided into muhurtas
    which are divided into kala
    which are divided into Kashta
    which are divided into Nimisha (1/5 of a second)
    So it starts from the age of universe which is thousands of billions of years and comes down till nimisha which is 1/5 of a second

    Note that, nimisha is defined as the time required for blink of an eye, and we all know that eyelids blink at a rate of 5 times/ second!!

    In other words the vedic/puranic texts provide ONE complete set of time units from the life span of universe till a fraction of a second!

    As for the difference between the age of universe as calculated by Gurudev using Puranic data, and as suggested by modern science… Modern science just 2-3 centuries back thought that universe was only couple of thousand years old.. So?

    today it thinks universe is 15-20 billion years old.. and this data is based on farthest visible object in the universe… what is the guarantee that what modern telescopes see is the border of the universe? Whatever modern science says in such cases is not necessarily the CORRECT answer, its only what current data points to. In other words age of the universe is MINIMUM 15-20 billion years old.. its not the ACTUAL value. You can ask any cosmologist to veify what I just said!

  • vijay

    Mr. Pushkar,

    thanks for accepting that I have little knowledge :) which I intend to fill up by knowing things from others, unlike some persons who just block their mind to others’ point of view. By the way even if one day I become knowledge able even then I promise that I shall sincerely and humbly try to answer the doubts which some people raise instead of cheaply showing off my knowledge.

    I havent argued anything knowledge able bacause I am here debating with you guys to get some knowledge, that’s why I had asked you so many questions in my earlier posts which you conveniently chose not to answer. Its OK I can understand that you feel threatened when someone asks you some questions which you dont want to answer ;)

    I never accepted Srinivas’s comments, all I said was that we need to first read the actual sanskrit verses instead of reading its translations. HOPE YOU GOT IT NOW ;) And by the way I again beg of you to please not put words into my mouth :)

    And Finally, I SHALL HEREBY PROCLAIM THAT I AM NOT A KNOWLEDGEABLE PERSON :) AND TILL MY DEATH I SHALL SEEK THE TRUTH. Signed – Vijay.

    Hope everyone is satisfied with my Declaration, which I bet will only be from my side ;)

    PS: “”If one knows much that is being said and keeps quiet, people assume he is a fool, for which he says he is indeed a fool ;) ”"

  • Pushkar Bhatnagar

    Gurudev

    Read the details on the link provided. Good work and interesting analysis. Keep it up.

    What else can I say. Ancient scriptures have dozens of such units about span of time.

    You are yourself mentioning

    “”The difference between modern science and this puranic science comes at the age of universe.. while modern science says the age of universe is around 15-20 billion years.. when we calculate based on puranic data of the 28th mahayuga of the 7th manvantara of the first day of the 51st year of Brahma, the age of the universe (Brahma) comes to a whopping 155,522 billion years!”"

    I do not anything further to add.

    Pushkar

  • http://www.hitxp.com/ Gurudev

    Pushkarji

    I think you are confused about Kalpa and Manvantaras.
    Kalpa is defined as a complete day of Brahma which includes day+night and is equal to 2000 Mahayugas (1000 for day+1000 for night).
    In other words 1 kalpa (1 day+night of Brahma) = 8.64 billion years, not 4.32

    And this has nothing to do with the age of earth. Brahma represents the entire physical universe (not just earth), and is said to live for 100 Brahma years which has 360 Brahma days each, of which 1 Brahma day = 8.64 billion earth years!

    The significance of Brahma day is that when the day starts Brahma is said to start creation of life, and at the end of the day all life forms will be destroyed and will get back into Brahma. For the entire night of Brahma there wont be any life forms. Again the next day Brahma starts creation of life which continues till the next night arrives.. and so on..

    So this in turn means that even though the entire universe exists for 100 Brahma years.. (only one bigbang).. life forms exist for 4.32 billion years (day of Brahma), and no life exists for the next 4.32 billion years (night of Brahma).. and the cycle continues..

    In other words in the physical universe represented by Brahma it is said that there will be life forms created from scratch 36000 times, at an interval of 8.64 billion years!! Note that the big bang is only one for a Brahma, and it is the creation of Brahma itself from the Vishnu Naabhi

    Brahma here is not some God who creates life, but the physical universe itself is personified as Brahma.

    Further
    1 day of Brahma = 1 night of Brahma = 14 Manvantaras+twilight zone = 1000 Mahayugas.
    Each Manvantara contains 71 Mahayugas

    We are said to be in the 1st day of the 51st year of Brahma. And in this day, we are said to be currently in the 28th Mahayuga of the 7th Manvantara!
    In other words, the current life forms are said to have existed for the past 2 billion years approx…

    The difference between modern science and this puranic science comes at the age of universe.. while modern science says the age of universe is around 15-20 billion years.. when we calculate based on puranic data of the 28th mahayuga of the 7th manvantara of the first day of the 51st year of Brahma, the age of the universe (Brahma) comes to a whopping 155,522 billion years!

    Please see my detailed calculations on this here http://hitxp.wordpress.com/2007/05/01/what-vedas-say-about-the-age-of-the-universe/

  • Pushkar Bhatnagar

    Dear Vijay

    How can you be ‘arrogant of knowledge’ when you have no knowledge at all about anything that you you keep debating??

    Show me anything in any of your post where you have made a knowledgeable statement?

    Srinivas suggests that in Yuga system, ‘Years’ may actually mean ‘Days’ and you immediately agree with him – it only implies that you also think that years should be interpreted as days. If that is so, the span of yuga becomes only 4800,3600,2400 and 1200 years. What is your argument then?

    Caught in your own web, my dear.

    Pushkar

  • vijay

    Wait a minute, Mr. Pushkar, are you referring to me as the sanskrit scholar, if so then please feel free to take my name instead of calling me a scholar, as I am neither arrogant of my knowledge nor did I claim to be a scholar like someone else does repeatedly over this forum.

    And for GOd’s sake dont put words into my mouth. Where did I ever accept your explaination of the yuga system? I have never accepted what you claimed, infact its you who are wasting everyone’s time on this blog by claiming things from purans, vedas without mentioning the actual sanskrit verses. You also conveniently assume things on behalf of me. Please first try to be more humble atleast towards who ask you some questions.

    And finally I NEVER accepted that what you propose as the yuga system to be right. Please dont put words into my mouth.

  • Pushkar Bhatnagar

    Dear Gurudev

    I am sure you have not raised this issue because you doubt my knowledge about these concepts. Further, I have no doubt, at all, that you do not consider me a Hindu of any inferior pedigree. I have said so because some of the contributors to this blog think that they have inherited some special ethnic genes. My only problem is that I have read these ancient scriptures and I think rationally. I read Vedas/Purans because I was doing the dating of Rama book. I was confronted with the questions about span of Yugas and thus, under compulsion, I tried to read as much as possible and bring out a harmonious solution to the problem. But more I read the Purans more I got disenchanted with the concepts given therein. Do you think I feel happy about criticizing these scriptures? Am I not pained that I have to put forth such analysis on the web which is read by all and sundry belonging to all creed and religions. You will note that I started getting into this debate very reluctantly only when I found that some scholarly persons were doubting whether I have ever read anything about Yuga.

    So far I have posted write ups only about Span of Yuga and Description of Solar System. I would soon post the details of the geography (height of mountains and trees thereon) described in Purans. It describes Indian subcontinent to be 9000 yojan or 1,08,000 Kms in length (Earths diameter is just 12,756 kms). Sumeru mountain is mentioned to be 84,000 yojan in height. So the height of Mt. Sumeru is almost nine times the entire length of India !! In modern terms Sumeru is 10,08,000 kms high. (and Mt. Everest is only 8.8 Kms high). Not only this ordinary trees like Pipal, Banyan, Kadamb are said to be growing on these mountains the writer had no regard for the kind of vegetation found on mountains and the height of these trees is mentioned as 1100 Yojan each means a whopping 132 Kms. Let me write that in detail and then you apply your mind to it.

    If you read Bhavisya Puran it gives details as late as that of Aurangzeb and East India Company. Please note that Bhavishya Puran is written in same chaste Sanskrit as any other ancient text but it mentions description up to the rule by Mughals and British.

    The point I am making is that the numbers given in Purans for Yuga span, solar system distances, height of Sumeru, distances about geography of our country are not found in Rig Veda / other Vedas / Ramayana. These are typically found in Purans and Purans were written by local Pundits. Do you know that number of Purans itself is not fixed? Purans were always open to additions / deletions / changes. These were updated every time when a new king was placed on throne. That is why they have lists of kings who ruled on different kingdoms. Whenever a new king achieved a victory over any other king a new tale was added to Puran.

    So far as span of yuga is concerned, earth being 4.54 billion years old, one can put as many cycles of yugas, mahayugas, Manavantras or Kalpas as possible and no verification is possible. However, truth can be ascertained in case of other verifiable numbers moons distance from earth or any other planet from sun; height of Sumeru or length of Indian sub-continent; height of trees or age of human beings in the past. These are only few of the concepts. I can continue to cite at least a dozen of such hilarious concepts from Purans and these cannot be explained by giving any logic. One may take shelter under interpretation of verse saying that I do not know Sanskrit or say that Puran I am referring to is forged or mention some scale but the matter of fact is that it is indefensible. The holes are too big to hide.

    It is a very crude and very bitter truth but anyone, who reads these concepts and tries to evaluate them on the touchstone of present knowledge, has to accept that all this is neither correct nor acceptable.

    You mentioned about Manavantra and Kalpa. Manavantra works out to about 306,720,000 years and Kalpa to 4.32 billion years. It is endless. The concept of Yuga gives a dozen of such units. A Kalpa period is very close to 4.54 billion years being the age of earth so many argue that this is what the truth is. But then we have already completed 27 cycles of Kalpas. Means earth itself has been created 27 times. So while scientists are only postulating theories about one big bang but we have names and details of 27 Big Bangs. It is all a bit too much to digest. This has been actually digested for too long by naïve people. No more now. In fact our emotional bond with this lakhs of years concept is one of the main factors that makes Lord Rama a myth rather than a historical personality.

    Pushkar

  • http://www.hitxp.com/ Gurudev

    Pushkarji
    What is the significance of Manvantara and Kalpa if we accept 1200 years? Sri Yukteshwar who initially put forward this concept of 1 yuga = 1200 years has not said anything about Manvantara or Kalpa. Can you please throw some light on this?

  • Pushkar Bhatnagar

    Srinivas Kavuri Ji

    The years mentioned in Yuga span were read as ‘ Divya years’. As a result the normal time span of yuga was multiplied by 360. For instance, 1200 years of Kali Yuga became 4,32,000 years.

    Now, you are right that ‘years’ should mean ‘days’. It means that 4,32,000 years are actually 4,32,000 days which is equivalent to 1200 normal years.

    So Vijay Ojha Ji must be happy to see his findings also getting endorsed by everyone – even by the sanskrit scholar on board!!

    Pushkar

  • Pushkar Bhatnagar

    Fantastic. I am glad to read the last message !!

    So the great sanskrit scholar is accepting that yuga span was only 1200, 2400, 3600 and 4800 years. Where is the question of Treta Yuga dating back to lakhs of years then ? Where has that ‘scale’ gone?

    I wonder why this wisdom descend on him now, after wasting so much time and space on this blog.

    Pushkar

  • vijay

    Srinivas, thats precisely what I am fearing, i.e., persons with little or no knowledge of sanskrit trying to debate based on some translations which were mostly done during the british occupation. Having passed Pravesha exam of the Sringeri Mutt, I can tell you that a Sanskrit sentence is highly grammatized and to simply read it like english or kannada is not recommended. Its difficult to explain how sanskrit, especially vedic sanskrit (remember that the sanskrit that I learnt is just the normal one, the vedic sanskrit is of a quite different calibre – its like new and old kannada) forms its sentences and gives meaning to the matter. If I in any way suggest someone to first learn Sanskrit, the common answer I get is that its either irrelevant today or that we are communalizing society. But people are really missing something in their life if they havent experienced this language.

  • Srinivas Kavuri

    Reg : Yuga lengths

    If the definition of yugas is taken as “”days”" instead of years, then the factor of 360 is approximately taken care of. Somebody with knowledge of sanskrit can revisit the verses to see exactly what they say

  • Pushkar Bhatnagar

    This is already given by me in my post. Read it carefully.

    Reproduced below for your benefit:
    (Please refer to Vishnu Puran, Part II, Chapter VII, Verse 3 onwards..)

    Pushkar

  • vijay

    Mr Pushkar, could you plz give the exact stanzas from puranas where they talk of Yuga system and also where they talk of Solar system.

    Thanks in advance.

  • vijay

    ROFL. Gurudev, I am sorry to say but I am kind of enjoying this. Hahahaha. Sorry, plz excuse me.

  • Vijay Kumar Ojha

    Sir
    Swami Sir Yuketeshwar Giri in his book “”The Holy Science”" has clearly given reasons how the “”YUGAS”" are not in lakhs of years. Going by his interpretation of Yugas , the Year “”5114 BC”" is actually in Treta Yug (as per my calculations)
    Could you kindly please tell me when was the exact date of Mahabharta War?

  • Pushkar Bhatnagar

    Description of Solar System – Fool proof numbers in Purans

    About seven years back, I was an ardent believer in the sacrosanct nature of the concepts given in Purans. I believed that numbers mentioned in Purans whether in defining span of yugas or age of human beings in different yugas or number of kings etc were all infallible. But my belief was badly shaken after I read, understood and analyzed the details given in Purans in respect of various concepts.

    I present below the Description of Solar system as presented in Purans. I am quoting from the VISHNU PURAN verbatim. (Please refer to Vishnu Puran, Part II, Chapter VII, Verse 3 onwards…..)

    It says:

    One Lakh Yojan above the earth is Sun and one Lakh yojan further above the Sun is Moon !!

    (One Yojan is about 12 Kilometers. Therefore, it means that about 12 Lakh Kms above earth is Sun and at a further distance of 12 Lakh km. is moon. Needless to say, it means that our next door neighbour in solar system is not moon, it is Sun!).

    Then it explains that above Moon, at a distance of 100 thousand Yojan are the Nakshatras (stars). So, it implies that 12 lakh Kms. above Moon are the 27 stars identified as Nakshatras.

    It further elucidates that two Lakh yojans above the Nakshatras is the planet Mercury !! (Look, it is not all that simple as you thought after reading that fifth class science book!!).

    It goes on to profess that at a further distance of two lakh Yojan above Mercury is the planet Venus !!

    Mars is located at the same distance (2 lakh yojan) above Venus.

    At a further distance of 2 lakh yojan above Mars is located Jupiter while Saturn exists a further 2 lakh yojan above Jupiter.

    Above Saturn, at a further height of 1 lakh yojan is Saptarishi (Ursa Major) and one lakh yojan above Sapta rishi exists the Pole star!!

    What can I say further about this whole concept. I need not explain any thing further. I am sure someone, who believes that yugas were Lakhs of years in duration, will explain this description to me by using some scale of Treta yuga.

    Pushkar

  • Vijay Kumar Ojha

    Sir
    As I have said that this is Dwapar Yuga. I would like to elaborate it futher.
    As I understand of the Yugas IS AS UNDER
    (i) Just as the moon revolves round the earth, the earth round the Sun , the Sun also revolves … .The whole “”Universe”" revolves round “”Brahma”". When we are nearest to Brahma our intellect is so developed that we are able to understand the deepest /finest points relating to “”Divinity”" and when we are the farthest , we are not able to comprehend beyond the materialist world

    (ii) 4800 Years is Satya Yug
    3600 Years is Treta Yug
    2400 Years is Dwapar Yug
    1200 Years is Kali Yug
    Then after Kali yug , there will be Dwapar Yug … Treta Yug and Satya Yug and this cycle will go on

    (iii) After the onset of Kali Yug , the then astrologers probably made the first mistake. Instead of writing 1 Kaliyug ..then started counting the years as 2401 (2400 years of Dwapar Yug). This continued for 1200 years till Kaliyug was as it darkest period. After that during “”ASCENDING KALIYUG”" the astrologers relaised
    their mistake. But they were not able to grasp the whole crux of their mistake . The 3600 years they took it to be Daiv Years because Kali Yug is of only 1200 years and they were calculating 3600 years of Kali Yug. So the multiplcation of Yuga years by 360 or whatever is wrong.

    (iv) The development in the world is the example of the progressed Yuga. Human Rights .. Space technology what ever field we human beings have progressed. But YES … I do not Know much about Yuga… whatever I UNDERSTOOD I have TOLD

  • vijay

    Yuga system is being interepreted by one and all, LOL.

    It is very interesting to note that we are in dwaparayuga, Double LOL.

    Also its interesting that mahabharatha happened just before chandragupta’s reign. Triple LOL.

  • Vijay Kumar Ojha

    Sir
    The date of Lord RAM’s birth as 5114 BC may be correct. The concept by present day astrologers that the present era is KALIYUG is actually wrong. We are 307 years into Dwapar Yug. As per my calculations 5114 BC is actually Treta yug
    307 +1200 ( Descending Kali Yug) +1200 (ascending KALIYUG)
    +2400 (Dwapar Yuga) =5107 years earlier WAS THE END OF TRETA YUG. If we add 3600 years , which is 8707 years earlier was the begining of Treta yug . So Lord Ram BIRTH WAS IN TRETA YUG as 5114 BC falls in between this period. 700 BC to 500 BC must have been the Mahabharata Times

  • Pushkar Bhatnagar

    Dear all

    In one of my earlier posts I gave the details of the Yuga system particularly the time span of all the four Yugas. I tried to make the point that Purans have inflated the time span of each Yuga by a multiple of 360. It is not difficult to understand that as a result of this inflation of span of yuga, our civilization would definitely live and die only in one Yuga – Kali Yuga – because it still has 4,26,892
    years left.

    However, today, most of the researchers, historians and indologists have consensus on the point that this multiple of 360 is a superfluous exaggeration and should be ignored. I also submitted my view point on this issue by quoting verses from RIG VEDA the oldest of our scared Vedic literature. I pointed out the inconsistencies
    between verses of Rig Veda and Purans and thereafter concluded that the facts stated in Rig Veda should prevail. If Rig Veda is to be believed then the age of man in every Yuga was only 100 years and thus the span of Yuga should be not in lakhs of years. I had requested some of my dear friends to take clear side either of Rig Veda or Purans but somehow my question was not found impressive enough by them.

    One may question that what was the need to inflate the entire Yuga span by 360? Perhaps, the answer can be logically derived if we examine the other details given in Purans about the Yuga concept.

    If you happen to read the description of different Yugas in Purans you will note that Sat Yuga is cherished so much that it appears to be a Yuga of complete blissfulness. It had everything that a man can dream of. Bliss and ecstasy was naturally present, as a result people never felt the hunger! In that period, people were contented and satisfied on all counts. Everyone lived equally long life. (Some Purans say 400 Years other say 20,000 years) People devoted
    themselves exclusively to the God through Tapasya and Dhyan. There was no misery and the earth was in the state of eternal ecstasy. Everyone had saint like disposition. Dharma was hundred percent. Apsaras danced on earth, milk was flowing freely for all.
    (Source: Skand-Puran).

    The description of next two Yugas Treta and Dwapar in most of the Purans is vague and only relative to the Sat Yuga virtues. Generally, it is mentioned that Dharma kept declining while Adharma kept expanding its domain. Immorality and sinfulness in people’s behaviour kept increasing constantly while virtues and qualities declined. As a result miseries and evil increased continuously.
    (Source: Vishnu-Puran).

    And then comes our Kali Yuga in which there is misery only on all sides. Society is deplorable; people have no merits, no character, no Varna-Ashram system, religion at the lowest ebb, crime of all sorts at the zenith. Characterless men and women indulging in all evil activities. The description one can easily understand.

    So, looking at the description of Sat Yuga and Kali Yuga, one can easily note these are poles apart. In fact these two yugas are just the extreme opposite of each other. Sat Yuga society is eternal bliss but Kali Yuga is eternal misery.

    And the most important point is that in Yuga system after Kali Yuga, Sat Yuga has to come. It is a cyclical theory in which Sat Yuga is followed by Treta; Treta followed by Dwapar and Dwapar followed by Kali yuga. After Kali yuga of one cycle the Sat Yuga of next cycle should start.

    Just like two consecutive years, only one night separates the two Yugas. Last night of Kali Yuga (sandhya period included) should give way to the first day of Sat Yuga. Please note that Purans mention the date of end of one yuga and begining of other yuga also and they are separated by only one night!!

    That means, going by the Yuga system, on the last day of Kali yuga or the eve of the Sat Yuga, there must have been a huge expection among the people at large. After all, the entire society highly deplorable, shameful and condemned (of Kali Yuga) would become the most ethical, principled and honourable the next morning because it was Sat Yuga. All those sinful and despicable persons of Kali Yuga, who had a life of mere 100 years, would become saints with a life time
    of 20,000 years!! (After all Sat Yuga has to show its effect….)

    How many of us are prepared to digest this?

    This stark difference between these two Yugas was, perhaps, the precise reason for inflating the time spans of each yuga by a multiple of 360. It is my very personal opinion that this exaggeration must have taken place around 1900 BC or so. Let me explain it in simple terms.

    Without any bias, if we adopt the span of Yugas as only 4800, 3600, 2400 and 1200 years and do not bring into play the concept of Divya Years and hold that if Kali Yuga began in 3101 BC and it was for 1200 years, then,
    around 1901 BC people must have started visiting the local Purohit asking when that day is coming when Sat Yuga was to begin so that their sufferings of Kali Yuga get over and they all step into the ecstatic state of Sat Yuga. I am sure people would have remained awake the whole night when the Kali Yuga was to end because from the next day the rivers of dirty water were to start flowing milk. Apsaras were to come and live with them on earth. Gloom was to
    vanish. This overnight change, all those miserable people should have been anticipating.

    But nothing happened!

    People must have warned that Pandit Ji of breaking his head if Sat yuga did not come in a few days. I think after taking all possible pleas of mistake in calculations etc and after himself praying, most earnestly, for the quick advent of Sat Yuga, the Purohits must have had a torrid time in explaining the chaos of Sat Yuga not showing up as per calculations. Under the circumstances, the erudite guys had no option but to convert the years into `Divya years’ and multiply everything by 360. With this calculation, in one
    stroke, they put the Sat Yuga beyond the reach of everyone and stated that this kali Yuga will last another 4,20,000 years. That cherished Yuga was placed beyond everyone reach by this masterstroke of Divya years. So we all live and die in Kali Yuga only.

    The problem in the theory is that the change from Kali Yuga to Sat Yuga is very “”drastic”". Such radical change cannot come in a diverse society overnight. But this is what Purans mention as cyclical theory. As against it, the changes in the society are gradual. Now look at the explanation of this change as under:

    It is like walking during night on a road having many lamp-posts. When you are at one lamp-post, there is maximum light. Call this Sat Yuga. Move forward, light starts decreasing and continues to decrease till you reach the point of maximum darkness. Call this Kali Yuga. Move forward and light begins to improve since you are
    approaching the next lamp-post. These are Dwapar, then Treta and again at the next Lamp-post you are in Sat Yuga.

    Having put on my helmet, I await my friends responses.

    Regards

    Pushkar

  • Pushkar Bhatnagar

    Dear Gurudev

    From the first six paras of your write up should I presume that Neanderthals were having a civilization as advanced as ours or as developed as mentioned in some of the ancient texts like Ramayana / Rig Veda?

    If everything was existing like this for lakhs of years then where was the need for Homo Sepians to re-discover the wheel, ignite the fire by rubbing stones, learn the art of agriculture again during the last 30,000 years.

    I do not doubt their speaking abilities. A new born baby also has speaking abilities but that is not equivalent to the refined language that he learns over the period of his growth and development. All I can say, about the research that you have referred to, is that Neanderthals had speaking abilities as good as we have. Fine, it is almost like stating the obvious. If in the process of evolution, Neanderthals are considered / linked as our forefathers their genetic configurations had to be similar to ours because it doesn’t undergo an upheavel in a span of 30,000 years.

    In my opinion, having the ability to speak is different form developing a language or carrying a culture. A language and culture is the outcome of a society, interaction of different persons in a common language, folklore, traditions, stability and established customs.

    So far as my understanding is concerned, no research institute has so far found that neanderthals were the inheriters of such a culture from past nor did they pass on such a civilised world to homo speians / modern man.

    Anyway, I can’t say about you, but atleast I do not consider myself an authority on the subject of anthropology / evolution of man.

    But one interesting point that you made is about the cyclical nature of Yuga system as against the scientific belief of linear nature of development. Again, I would restrict my self to the analysis of Yuga system – as described in our Purans and show how this cyclical theory contradicts itself. I am sure some of my friends here would not be able to digest it easily but I can’t help telling the truth since this is what is written in Purans.

    All that in the next post.

    Pushkar

  • http://www.hitxp.com/ Gurudev

    Pushkarji

    A recent study done in 2007 by researchers from Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology suggests that Neanderthals after all might have been speaking like us!

    There is a version of a gene called FOXP2 in humans and this version of FOXP2 enables us to coordinate during speech. Other animals like chimps have a different variant of this gene and hence lack the genetic ability to speak. Even those humans who have a different version of this gene will have difficulty in speaking, and will be mostly unable to speak! This gene (and its importance) was found after studying a family whose entire generations were unable to speak! This family called KE family had a genetic mutation which had changed this FOXP2 gene in them.

    Then recently researchers while studying the genes of Neanderthals from their fossil remains, expected the variation of FOXP2 genes found in chimps to be found in neanderthals too, because the general impression was that neanderthals didnt speak.

    But surprisingly the study revealed that even neanderthals also had the same variant of this gene as that of humans! Which in turn means that neanderthals were as sophisticated as humans in this aspect!

    Neanderthals also have the same hyoid bone which humans have. If FOXP2 is the genetic aspect, this bone is the physical aspect which enables us to speak. No other animals other than humans and Neanderthals have this bone. This bone which literally hangs from the skull is the only part of the human skeleton which is independent of other bones. So if neanderthals can have this both, then there is no reason why they couldnt speak!

    Also, recent archaeological evidences have shown that neanderthals were more human in terms of life style! In fact Eric Trinkaus, a Washington University anthropologist says that “”there is no silver bullet which identifies us as ‘human’ and which can be used to identify past human forms as more or less ‘human.’”"!

    We need to accept neither science nor puranas.. but only what it really is.. science as we know it today is not the final answer, its still in search of answers, infact there are more questions than answers, and each new answer is creating many more questions.. :)

    As for the yuga time scale, I somehow find it more logical, because it suggests that evolution and life is cyclical unlike what modern science thinks to be linear from amoeba to man… there are more possibilities that life on earth has undergone global destructions and life has started from scratch again and again, many times.. one intermediate example as we know today is dinosaurs, because of the huge fossils… there might be many more such complete cycles too!

    super volcanoes, asteroids or comets impacts, wars, solar outrage, global tectonic changes, magnetospheric changes, all these have the ability to wipe out life to a large extent on earth! And it is highly probable that this has happened multiple times in the past.

    Just some thoughts :)

  • Pushkar Bhatnagar

    Gurudev

    I really appreciate the facts you brought out about the age of Homo Eretus (upright man who first walked on two limbs), Homo Sepians (intelligent man) and neanderthals. You have rightly pointed out that neanderthals lived till as late as 30,000 years ago when they finally lost out to Homo Sepians in the race for food.

    Neanderthals and Homo Sepians were wanderers/ did not live in villages or towns/ did not perform agriculture opeartions and covered their bodies with leaves and barks. Thier language was not defined and it was more symbolic. They had no culture so to say. (all this to point out that from the age of Golden era satyuga / treta to the present age they cannot be considered as the carrier of knowledge, culture or civilization).

    If all this was the scenario existed till about thirty thousand years ago, scientific evidence being availble, how do we reconcile it with the Puranic concept of Yuga where, in your own words, Treta Yuga in India was millions of years ago?

    Do you see the contradiction?

    What should we believe in – scientific evidence or Puran??

    I wote only about Yuga system of Purans – which says that yuga spans were in Lakhs of years and tried to bare it’s glaring and self defeating contradictions. Yuga system is not the only concept given in puran. I will post a write up on how the solar system is described in Puran. Today, there can be argument about the span of time of Yuga because time is limitless and any span will appear probable but that is not true for description of solar system or geography of earth.

    Good that you pointed out about the timeline of the history of modern man. If I had done so, some of my friends here would have accused me of using history to support my findings about date of Lord Rama.

    Pushkar

  • Ramana

    With all seriousness, young men like Gurudev should enter politics. Intellectuals rejecting politics as dirty profession is disservice to the country.
    Politics is a noble profession and deserves smart and educated youth like Gurudev.

  • http://www.hitxp.com/ Gurudev

    yes vijay
    saw his comments on the news..
    what does it mean when a hunter starts talking about computer? :)
    Who is buddhadev?
    Is he a historian? Has he done historical research on Rama?
    Is he a archaeologist? Has he done excavations around Ayodhya or Ram sethu?
    Is he a geologist? Has he done research on the sethu formation?
    What is Buddhadev? What is his authority to comment on this? :)
    Given the very basic fact that communism is against democracy.. communism should be banned in India.

    The communists of India today are the biggest jokers.. they are neither the true left, nor are they right. If Marx was there today, he would commit suicide and die again if he sees Buddhadev calling himself a communist!

    There is no difference between terrorists and communists.. terrorists have no country other than Pakistan.. communists have no country other than China

    It was these same communists of India who condemned Indian nuclear tests, but called Chinese nuclear tests a communist bomb.. just like the way islamic fundamentalists called Pak tests a Islamic Bomb.

    It was the same communist buddhadev who supported the killing of civilians in Nandigram saying, “”we have paid them back in their own coin”"!

  • vijay

    http://www.hindustantimes.com/StoryPage/FullcoverageStoryPage.aspx?id=7812353b-0ca6-4304-a84e-ce76ff5933a5TheRamSetuRow_Special&&Headline=Buddha+questions+Lord+Ram's+existence

    “”On the backfoot over Nandigram, West Bengal Chief Minister Buddhadeb Bhattacharjee has stoked another controversy by questioning the existence of Lord Ram.
    “”Ram was born in the imagination of poets and Ram Sethu is a natural formation under the sea,”" Bhatacharjee told a meeting to mark the 15th anniversary of the demolition of Babri Masjid on Thursday. “”

    —- Looks like communists are definitely anti-hindu, now no one should have doubt about this. Spreading hatred and dividing communities based on religion. Looks like this time it is the communists who are truly communalists.

  • vijay

    Gurudev, I shall definitely read the blog on Darwin’s theory, sorry I missed it. I am working in the field of complexity science, and people in this field are slowly but definitely realizing that complexity is on purpose and not by chance. This field is still in cradle, but soon in probably 50 years things will be more clear with the aid of good technological advances in protein and mRNA spectroscopy which will substantially support the many theories we as complexity science researchers propose using only analytical and simulation stuff as of now.

    Hahaha, Fantastic quote by Hoyle ;) truly that sums up everything about complexity science.

  • http://www.hitxp.com/ Gurudev

    Thanks Vijay and Mamatha for those really encouraging words and support :)

    Vijay, yes I have a lot of skepticism about evolution creating entirely new species.. How did the chromosomes change so perfectly so as to create a new species? How did a male and female of the new species were created at the same time? How did all this happen? only by random mutations? mutations are always harmful!
    I had once written a blog on this
    http://hitxp.wordpress.com/2007/06/03/darwins-theory-is-only-about-adaptation-not-evolution/

    Fred hoyle, noted mathematician and physicist once said, The chance that higher life forms have been evolved by chance is comparable with the chance that a Tornado sweeping a junk yard might assemble a boeing-747 from the materials available :)

  • http://www.hitxp.com/ Gurudev

    Ramana
    First of all Neanderthals are NOT predecessors of Homo Sapiens. They both have a common ancestor somewhere around Homo Erectus. So there is no question of defying evolutionary logic here. Modern humans did not evolve from Neanderthals.. Neanderthals lived till as recent as just about 30,000 years ago!

    Even neanderthals are well defined and so are homo sapiens.. the only difference is that they are two different species of humans.. Just because some other species do not look like us, we cannot say that they are not well defined :)

    Fossil records have shown that Neanderthals and Homo sapiens coexisted..
    Archaeological evidences suggest that Neanderthals lived in south India between 500,000 to 40,000 years ago! You can check these facts out :)

    Look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Neanderthal_child.jpg
    This is the reconstruction of a neanderthal child’s face.. how does it look? Doesnt it match the vanara descriptions in Ramayana?

  • vijay

    Gurudev, some one commented on Darwin’s theory and I felt like laughing because it is going to be proved wrong in another 100 years due to improvements in genetic field. Myself being in this field, felt like laughing at the comments made at you “”We do not have Neandetharls in one part of the country and the remaining are well defined structure like RAMA. It defies Darwin evolution theory.”" Dont we have chimpanzees, gorillas, which are claimed as our ancestors living among us. So why not neanderthals living with humans. Simple Logic isnt it? Also for general info let kids who comment without using brains plz refer “”http://www.darwins-theory-of-evolution.com/”" for more basic info. I am copying last para from the site on to here.

    Darwin’s Theory of Evolution is a theory in crisis in light of the tremendous advances we’ve made in molecular biology, biochemistry and genetics over the past fifty years. We now know that there are in fact tens of thousands of irreducibly complex systems on the cellular level. Specified complexity pervades the microscopic biological world. Molecular biologist Michael Denton wrote, “”Although the tiniest bacterial cells are incredibly small, weighing less than 10-12 grams, each is in effect a veritable micro-miniaturized factory containing thousands of exquisitely designed pieces of intricate molecular machinery, made up altogether of one hundred thousand million atoms, far more complicated than any machinery built by man and absolutely without parallel in the non-living world. And we don’t need a microscope to observe irreducible complexity. The eye, the ear and the heart are all examples of irreducible complexity, though they were not recognized as such in Darwin’s day. Nevertheless, Darwin confessed, “”To suppose that the eye with all its inimitable contrivances for adjusting the focus to different distances, for admitting different amounts of light, and for the correction of spherical and chromatic aberration, could have been formed by natural selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest degree.”"

  • vijay

    Truly said Mamatha,
    Guru needs to seriously think about your suggestion, or he might have already made a choice that was well thought out, else he would already be in politics by now, right. Guru can definitely becalled a TRUE visionary, but to enter our political system and set it right, he needs support of each one of the youth, which totally lack unity now-a-days. The only major setback in our country is total lack of unity. We just keep on arguing to prove each other smarter rather than work towards a unified common good goal. We still are not sure what to do about our lives, forget improvng others’ lives. First of all we need to set our lives right, by doing everything morally right, like not causing pollution, helping the poor as much as we can, not dividing the society based on caste, religion, sex, langauge, etc. I believe we can follow these things and hundreds of others would follow soon. Thus a silent revolution takes place. I have followed some of these. I had a variety of friends in our gang (malayali muslim, kannada lingayat, telugu guy, gowda, brahmin, an sc, a tulu guy, etc) and I made sure that we have unity at all cost and dont degrade on anothers’ caste/language.. The result is that we are best friends now after 7 years and still respect all castes, languages, etc. This was a small example that I tried to set in. And it worked.

    Yes Guru needs to be supported, and I support him even if I might have logical differences with him on some serious topics. We need to stand behind good leaders, if not becoming leaders ourselves. But leadership is an altogether different ballgame, which needs lots of guts, energy, passion, wit, dynamism, which I believe Guru has. Hence if he has belief in himself he can take the plunge and I atleast am supporting him.

  • Mamatha

    Dear Gurudev
    Your articles, and more than that your responses to comments are amazing, extremely well written, based on solid logic and actual facts which can never be denied. And more than anything else, the intentions are crystal clear.

    May I request you to seriously consider entering the political system of India. The country’s politics definitely needs the inspiring leadership of youth like you, and I feel this is the right time. How many Indian politicians have this kind of in depth knowledge about the country, about international politics like you have? How many of them have the energy and vision? please think seriously on these lines.

    kind rgds
    a well wisher

  • Ramana

    Gurudev,
    “”
    Ramana
    You are mixing up things. While it is a matter of study about whether vanaras were neanderthals or some form of primitive humans, since even the tretayuga time scale of Ramayana dates back to these days..”"”"

    This argument is a complete nonsense.We do not have Neandetharls in one part of the country and the remaining
    are well defined structure like RAMA.
    It defies Darwin evolution theory.

  • http://www.hitxp.com/ Gurudev

    Gururaj

    No typo :) In 2005-06 alone IT has created over 1 million jobs officially, and this includes only the jobs that come directly under IT, not the dependant industries (like catering, securities, cabs etc) that thrive on IT.
    See
    http://www.indiaprwire.com/businessnews/20070228/19128.htm

    By the way in the coming years even automobile industry and retail industry would be creating millions of jobs in India. IT started the trend, and its now expanding to other industries as well.

    The credit clearly goes to IT for having made foreign companies look towards India for cost effective talented offshoring. IT empowered millions of youth in India, and this in turn created a huge consumer market since this youth also started spending what they earn, and because of which other industries like automobile started booming in India, and this in turn is now leading to job booms in these industries too :)

  • http://www.hitxp.com/ Gurudev

    Hi Gururaj,
    how can you expect one single IT industry to solve all the problems of India? :)
    IT has provided jobs to these few million people, if not for IT even they would have been jobless. So we should be happy that IT has atleast solved 5% of our problems.

    But at the same time you cant expect IT to serve entire India. 1 billion is not a small population, nor is India a small singapore or hongkong, where just one industry can provide livelihood to entire country.

    IT has done more than what it can. Its for the government to use this as a base and come with policies to create more ooportunities. IT has not only served urban India, thousands of youth from rural India have come to the cities and have been employed in IT too.. thousands of people employed under mushroom industries of IT also include illiterate youth.. what else can you expect IT to do?

    IT is not some government social service programme to become inclusive. It includes only those people whom it needs, just like any other industry. I think at the same time you also are not aware about the social service initiatives of a number of Indian IT companies.

    To summarize, IT has done more than what it can, and people in IT can only do things to expand the IT more..
    but to ensure that every person benefits from this.. is the responsibility of the government. Government has to come out with policies to ensure that IT opportunities can be decentralized and moved away into rural India too.. For this government has to first provide proper infrastructure in these places.

    Again, IT cant be expected to solve all of India’s problems. It is just another industry :)

  • Gururaj

    Hi GD,

    btw the number of new IT jobs every year is about 100,000 an d not 1 million I think. I assume that was a typo from you.

    rgds

  • Gururaj

    Hi GD,

    I knew you would quote the amount of foreign exchange earned by IT. and what use is this $ for the vast majority of the people as of now? the rest of the country still depends on rupee for their existance, whereas the $ is mainly used only by the urban people to fuel thier life.

    anyway my only wish is that India’s IT becomes as much more inclusive as possible. we are on that path but it is still a very long road.

    rgds

  • Gururaj

    Hi Vijay,

    People here are just taking pothshots at Ramayana without trying to understand it. I think Rama was the forerunner of all modern value system we see today like

    monogamy,
    responsibiliteis of a son
    justice system.
    etc..
    Both the incidents of agnipravesh and banishment of sita highlight an aspect of justice system which a ruler/government must follow; that justice not only be done but be seen done as well.

  • http://www.hitxp.com/ Gurudev

    Vijay
    Yes, the story of vedavati is in Uttarkanda of valmiki ramayana in chapter 17..
    ??? ?????? ??? ?????? ???? ???? ????
    ????????? ?????????? ??????? ???? ??????
    ????????????? ?????? ??????? ???? ??????
    But it is also said that sita itself is vedavati! isnt it?

    As for the sending of Sita to forest, well if Rama’s brother bharatha could rule the kingdom when Rama and Sita went to forest in exile earlier, even later instead of sending Sita alone to forest, Rama could have asked his brother to rule the kingdom instead and he himself could have gone to forest with Sita again :)

  • http://www.hitxp.com/ Gurudev

    Ramana
    When did I ever say that they lived only 5000-7000 years ago?!!
    Infact I have said that “”even the tretayuga time scale of Ramayana dates back to these days.”",
    here treta yuga time scale refers to millions of years back, not to 5000 or 7000 years back… and this is also when neanderthals lived.. I am not saying this is the real truth.. this is one possibility…

    “”Srilankas are called Rakashas”"?!!! Where? in Ramayana?
    Again a very wrong picture..

    Srilanka is said to be only RULED by a Rakshasha.. and not “”full of Rakshasas”".. Mandodari (wife of Ravana) is not called a Rakshashi.. nor is Vibhishana (brother of Ravana) called a Rakshasa…

    Also, Rakshasa is not a race of evil people… it is only used to describe people with evil characters.. note that Ravana was actually a brahmin and a king, with the knowledge of vedas.. yet he is called Rakshasa/evil because of the more evil he had in his character than good.. note that he was also a good person in other aspects.. the beauty here is that nobody is described as 100% good or 100% bad.. some are more evil and some are more good!!

    Ramsethu lies in front of us.. there is no denying Ramayana.. Rama and Ravana indeed walked on this planet.. and there is no racism in Ramayana.. can you please show me one single verse in valmiki ramayana which says that south Indians are monkeys.. or that entire srilankans are Rakshasas :)

  • http://www.hitxp.com/ Gurudev

    Gururaj

    Software services was the highest foreign exchange earner at $21.8 billion during April-December 2006, followed by business and management consultancy at $16.5 billion and travel services at $6.4 billion! http://in.tech.yahoo.com/070405/137/6e7i4.html

    The number of new Jobs created by IT alone (excluding the mushroom industries that thrive on IT) in 2005-06 alone is more than 1 million! And this only includes the statistics from top companies which provided their recruitment details! So you can easily guess the number of overall jobs created by IT in India :)
    Even if we consider the 10 million figure, its a staggering amount. Please dont compare this with the population of India and say its small.. if these many jobs were created in smaller countries, it would cover a couple of them :)
    Note that Indian population is 1/6 of world population.

    Creating millions of jobs is definitely not a small thing. Million is a real huge number! Show me any other industry which has produced so many jobs in India in such a short span of time! In fact IT has produced so many jobs that companies are finding it difficult to recruit the right people, there is skill shortage in Indian IT today, not job shortage! At the same time it is also true that a lot of undeserving candidates have got into these companies, who know very little technology or actual IT, who most of the time only talk nonsense and yet have a lot of headweight :)

  • Ramana

    Gurudev,
    It is scientifically nonsense comparing people who lived 5000-7000 years ago to neanderthals.
    If the people exist beyond scientific explanation , as obvious as this one , I have to reject out right Ramayana as a reality.
    How about Srilankas are called Rakashas?
    We can not go spin around and hide the truth under the carpet.

  • http://www.hitxp.com/ Gurudev

    OOPS!
    Ruchi, why do you think I am biased :)
    I didnt say anything like eating idly sambar with hands is disgusting! infact I was rotfl when I read Gururaj saying this..

    Jokes apart.. when did I ever say anything AGAINST north India or UP! Infact my roots get traced back to North India and my mother tongue is NOT kannada! but I am a kannadiga born and brought up in Bangalore :)

    I never said southern states are PERFECT either. But due credit should be given to whatever they have achieved. As of now, there is a healthy competition between Karnataka, Tamilnadu and Andhra as to which state will continue to lead in terms of IT. At present, Karnataka is clearly leading ahead, INSPITE of its politicians like Devegowda..

    If you have read my earlier articles, I have even criticized the political systems in Karnataka, Tamilnadu along with states like UP, Bihar..
    http://hitxp.wordpress.com/2007/10/07/whats-up-karnataka/
    http://hitxp.wordpress.com/2007/09/19/political-hypocrisy-of-dmk/

    At the same time I had also written about the wonderful efforts of self reliance in terms of electric power in Uttaranchal and parts of UP using water wheels ..
    http://hitxp.wordpress.com/2007/08/25/little-drops-of-water/

    You are referring to the incidents of violence when Rajkumar died? They were all goons paid by local congress politicians to cause riots, as they wanted police firing and lathi charge to take place , so that they could try to cause trouble to the then JD(S)-BJP led alliance that was in power in the state. In fact it was the people of Bangalore who actually suffered at the hands of these politicians and their political game plans then.

    Did you say people of Bangalore are educated? Not most of those who drive on the streets there.. Not just Bangalore either..
    If you read one of my earlier posts, I had written that one of the most uneducated, uncivilized people live in the cities of India, and Bangalore is one such city where I experience this everyday. I am referring to those stupid drivers of vehicles (two wheelers, cars, buses, lorries, cabs, every vehicle) who always drive with high beams ON in the evenings.. and almost every body does it.. it really irritates when the approaching vehicle is shooting bright light right into your eyes blinding you for a moment, and I consider these people the most uneducated, uncivilized idiots, no matter what high position they might be in or no matter how many degrees they might be having.

    I feel like punching each of them, but how many people will I keep punching? So if I come to power in this country, the first thing I will be doing is to bring in and to strictly implement a law which says that if a driver is caught driving his vehicle with high beams ON unnecessarily, more than thrice, then his driving license should be canceled PERMANENTLY.

    I have almost the same number of north Indian+north east Indian friends as many as south Indian.. even they read my blog.. and they completely agree that the situation in UP and Bihar today is really not good.. and its a matter of serious concern.. Bihar was the knowledge center of ancient India and UP was the central stage as you rightly said..
    I would be the last person to want to see a situation where some states in India are moving ahead and others are lagging behind.. there should be equal distribution of health, wealth, opportunities, etc all across the country.. there should be minimal difference between the least paid and the most paid in the society..

    In fact I am very happy that so many people from north east also are finding opportunities in south India.. this will facilitate familiarity and the feeling of oneness and mutual trust all across the country.. given the diverse nature of the Indian society, incidents of discrimination do happen both in south as well as in north.. only more interactions and mixing will ensure that such incidents become a rarity.. there are lots of local sensitive issues that need to be handled carefully, especially the issues between neighboring states.. unfortunately the politicians most of the time try to take undue advantage of this..

    so to summarize, the beauty of India is its diversity.. and every region has its unique contribution to the country.. every region also has its own drawback that needs to be sorted out in an inclusive manner.. the common bond that ties us all together is the ancient Indian culture which dates back to thousands of years ago.. also when the rest of the world comes to know about true history of human past, it will be the same ancient Indian (world) culture that will tie together entire humanity :)

    To quote mark twain
    “”India is the cradle of the human race, the birthplace of human speech, the mother of history, the grandmother of legend and the great grand mother of tradition.

  • vijay

    Sorry, its MARS in seventh house (typo error)

  • vijay

    Gurudev,

    Yes, I agree with you that asking one’s wife to show purity definitely shows lack of faith, but was Lord so much prone to error, that he couldnt even think like a decent human being. I doubt it. Why would he suffer like hell to come to lanka and save Sita. He cries remembering Sita everyday, and pleads to his friends the vanaras to help him get Sita fast. Inspite of all this why did he ask for agnipravesha. There is an interesting but true story around this. When Ravana couldnt get hold of the AtmaLinga of Lord Shiva, (the AtmaLinga got stuck on ground and he couldnt take it with him to lanka for his mother to worship) he was desperate and was walking back from Kailash to lanka. When walking thru the forests he found a beautiful lady who was meditating, whom he couldnt resist and approached for lust. I dont remember her name (if anyone could help me out here) As soon as he grabbed her and forced her to come to lanka with her, she burnt herself and before doing so vowed that she would take revenge on Ravana. After her death, she approached Lord Vishnu in Vaikuntha and asked for his help, on which he asked her to wait for his incarnation on earth and promised her that she would get her revenge. When Rama and Sita were is vanavasa, Rama requested Sita to enter fire and from which outcame the other lady. It is said that it was this lady who was with ravana in ashoka vatika. Agnipravesha was just a method to get back Sita from the fire. Rama could have got the agnipravesha done in private but he knew that people were not so pure in heart and he would have to again ask Sita to do agnipravesha once more, hence he might have asked her do it in public. As far as He himself entering fire along with Sita, it is said that only a pure person as Sita is not harmed by Agni, and even the Lord is not spared. We might look at it as Lord putting immense faith in Sita (faith that even fire cannot destroy her, and showing the world that a woman is of such purity).

    As far as sending Sita to forest, Lord himself acknowledges that what he did was wrong, but had to do due to compulsion of his subjects, who later finally apologised for thier disbelief in Sita (but it was too late by then). There is also an interesting story recited at many northindian upanyasas – that Lord used to get up early morning and used to spread flowerson the bank of the river to Valmiki’s ashram, and when Sita used to bring water from the river she would be surprised. It is also said that Lord was never happy in his later part of life and just ruled for the sake of his subjects. The point that he could have gone with Sita seems to be right, but if Rama would have done that, would his brothers not follow him and soon the kingdom would fall into bad hands? This was my point of view.

    Ramayana is very interesting only because of the immense emotions it carries, and the lessons it teaches us. The finest points of Dharma are depicted in Ramayana. It is open to fantastic interpretations, which purifies the readers mind and makes him follow the path of service to others even sacrificing one’s own interests. There are a lot of instances in Ramayana where Dharmasankata prevails. Lord explains what one should do under such circumstances. There is one interesting phase in Ramayana wherein when Bharatha begs Lord not to go to Forest and all elders and gurus also plead Rama not to go. Here Janakaraja (Sita’s father) who is said to be epitome of dharma advises Bharatha that instead of forcing his brother to follow his wishes, he should sit at his feet and ask him as to what is the right path to follow. Only then does Bharatha stop imposing his wishes on Rama and asks Rama as to what his wishes are. Rama then consoles Bharatha and explains him about his duties.

    Ramayana is full of such immense emotions wherein one is completely stuck in Dharmasakata and Lord shows us how one should behave under such circumstances, thats why he is called Purushottama (Best among humans).

    According to astrology, Lord had Mras in seventh house, which makes his family life difficult, hence circumstances arose such that he couldnt control them. This tells us that we may suffer in life due to our previous lives karma, but we should not lose strength and follow the path of Dharma.

  • Ruchi

    Now from Rama to Ramayana to regionalism hmm….

    Gurudev, being biased to where you belong is pretty obvious, but degrading someone elses place is not acceptable. Now that you mentioned UP twice let me talk about the state

    – “”Four out of the 13 prime ministers were born in Allahabad; the University of Allahabad has produced three prime ministers; and two prime ministers represented Allahabad as MPs. Thus, the city of Allahabad in some way or other has produced eight prime ministers out of the 14 (including the one acting prime minister). Seven out of the 13 prime ministers were born in India’s largest state, Uttar Pradesh; nine prime ministers studied in Uttar Pradesh; and ten prime ministers represented constituencies in Uttar Pradesh as MPs. Thus the state of Uttar Pradesh in some way or other has produced nine prime ministers out of the 14.”" – Courtesy Wikipedia.

    – UP have IIT and IIM, UPites prefer to stay in India rather then shifting their base to Dubai/US [which is pretty common is southern part of India + Punjab]

    – Almost all the illegal immigrants to Arab Countries are either from Punjab or Kerala [which is highest literacy rate, this eventually put a question mark on the type of education]
    {Please search on Google if you have any doubts}

    – Why people in southern part of India do keep on proving among themselves who is better. [Malayalam, Tamil... and so on]

    – I was in Bangalore for more then 6 months not just to earn hefty amount but I like travelling new places, pissed off and was back to Northern part of India. {I faced adequate discrimination in my own country rather then in any foreign countries I have been to}, but enjoyed working there as my team members were great.

    – The so called most educated part of India given a nicest example ever to all the foreigners by almost cracking rites on natural death of a great Film Actor. Phew, if thats an act of an educated society then am afraid what people should expect from illiterates of UP and Bihar :)

    – And last but not the least both Ram and Krishna were domicile of state Of UP you see ;)

    See my point is not to prove that one part of India is having supremacy over other, why can’t we think as a country. I hope someday people will realise that there are more directions then just north and south :) .

    and Now I think we should concentrate on core of this blog, rather then wasting our time in modern days Mahabharata…

  • Pushkar Bhatnagar

    VC ji

    I think we are making too many and too big assumptions here and trying to seek an answer.

    A city of the Gurjat coast does not mean that it has to be Dwarka only.

    Even if it is Dwaraka, it does not mean that the carbon dating date given to the city becomes the date of Mahabharata war. Mahabharata war was an event to which city of Dwaraka is related but city can exist much much earlier then the happening of a war. You must be aware that MATHURA was ruled by Shatrughan during the times of Lord Ram and it is mentioned repeatedly in Valmiki Ramayana. Existence of a city and happening of an event like war are independent of each other.

    About Mahabharata date and the date of begining of Kali era there is almost a consesus among historians, archaeologists, astrologers, astronomers and other experts – not as a result of some force – but on the basis of various evidences available with them that it was about 5000 years ago. (Begining of Kali era in 3102 BC).

    In my opinion, it would not make great sense that we refute all those evidences and hold that
    1. this city is Dwarka and
    2. the carbon dating time it gives is the time of Mahabharata war.

    I am sure you must be aware that Prof. S R Rao of ASI had discovered another city off the coast of Gujrat – Bet Dwarka – and dated it to about 1500 BC on the basis of the pottery found there.
    His book ‘Lost city of Dvaraka’ is a comprehensive analysis of how the city he found was Vasudev’s Dwaraka.

    Another point I would like to clarify is that sea level rise given by me is not my data. Many persons have accused me that I am changing sea level data as per my choice to suit some hypothesis etc. This data is taken from the National Geophysical Data Centre (NGDC), USA. Anyone may visit their website and look in detail at the data available.

    It is worth noting that sea level rise from a depth of 120 mtrs to the present level over about 18,000 years has been very abrupt and not uniform. I remember having taken notes that there were atleast three periods of sudden abnormal rise in the sea level. During these three periods of about 500 years each, the rise of sea level was as much as 20-30 meters each. Normally so much rise took place in much longer time periods. I will have to dig out my notes to tell the exact numbers. If you are interested I can make it available on this blog.
    Pushkar

  • VC

    Pushkarji,

    Thanks for your detailed response. I enjoy reading them. However, something does not add up. Let me explain: the relavant points from your statements in this analysis are:

    “”Rama was born 7,114 years BP”"
    “”Sea level during that time was 6-14 mts below current sea levels”"

    Now, with the discovery of the new city, lets call it “”Dwaraka”" , which is 36 mts below sea level and carbon dated between 9,000 and 7,500 BP. Interesting, the level of water over the city correlates to your seal level rise figures. Which means that your sea level rise numbers may be more accurate that you think.

    Now, there is speculation that the Mahabharata happened around the time of the sudden sea rise — because there are episodes about Arjuna leaving Dwaraka and the sea flooding the area. If a sudden flooding, you have pointed out, happened beween 7,000-8,000 BP. So, if the Mahabharata happenned around this time, then shouldn’t the Ramayana have occurred millenia before?

  • Gururaj

    Hi GD,

    The number of new jobs created by IT is abt 100K. Assuming there are 10 times that figure actually working, the number IT people is 1M. At a more optimistic level let us assume 2M and assume 4 times that figure are indirectly benefited. so that is 8M. let us round it to 10M as you are so fond of IT.. So u have at the very best abt 10M people benefited by IT directly & indirectly out of what ,1100M. so we can get an idea how big IT is currently? right.

    THe problem with India is the population is so huge that even small % appear as big numbers.

    IT is a real success, but it is so small and nascent and it is still very urban. And yet you have people getting arrogant about it.

    So let us not get carried away.

    and it is not as if Inida’s IT kicked off on its own entirely.

    Credit goes to NRIs who proved that Indians were second to none. established themselves in countries like US and help India immensely by channelling the IT work to India.

    Actually real credit goes to the early leaders of Independant India who invested so heavily in premier institutes like IIT , REC etc and not insisting that these candidates stay at home. These Indians went abroad and made successful career and finally started helping India.

    I remember a telugu movie called “”oorikichina maata”" ie promise to the village where all villagers pool money to sponsor a bright boy to become a doctor hoping for him to work for the village at a later stage.

  • http://www.hitxp.com/ Gurudev

    Gururaj

    Come on .. you call IT success of south India a small thing?? This was something the entire India was waiting to happen ever since Independence.. ask all those north Indians who have found a hefty package in South India and they will tell what it really means.. go to US and ask there.. people know more about Bangalore than about India..

    What has farmer suicides got to do with IT success.. its not the IT people who are causing farmer suicides, its the dumb politicians.. just because there is failure in one field, doesnt mean that one should not progress in other fields, right?
    But what worries me really is the plight of states like UP and Bihar.. now including west bengal.. crime, communism, naxalism, social unrest, these issues need to be addressed on a top priority in these states..

    you should be happy that at least because of IT thousands of poor families have become upper middle class families..
    you have no idea how many millions of families in south India have come above the below poverty line just because of IT.. not even south Indians, even thousands of north Indians are making a life in the south.. you should be happy that because of IT even youth from north east India are finally getting jobs in places like Bangalore..

    IT has not only created millions of opportunities via IT jobs.. there are dozens of mushroom industries that are thriving under IT.. the local tea stalls around IT companies.. the cab drivers, the security guards, the catering companies, the office boys, the shopping spree, the spendings in markets, the insurances, banking systems and sales personnel, etc are all thriving the root industry of IT and IT services.. reverse brain drain is because of IT..

    IT and Bangalore started make things really “”happen”" in India.. world started looking at India ONLY because of IT, other things only followed this success later..

    If Indian youth today are saying “”NO thanks”" to opportunities in US, its only because of IT. If you dont call IT a real major success in India, then what else is the success in India? For me IT is the greatest success of India ever since independence.

  • http://www.hitxp.com/ Gurudev

    Ramana
    You are mixing up things. While it is a matter of study about whether vanaras were neanderthals or some form of primitive humans, since even the tretayuga time scale of Ramayana dates back to these days..

    On the other hand, even if they are not these primitive humans, they are definitely not depicted as monkeys anywhere in Ramayana.. vanaras are definitely NOT monkeys in sanskrit. and there is no question of south Indians being said to be monkeys.. as I have said earlier clearly, vanaras as mentioned in ramayana were from different parts of the world, and Rama met the group that lived in a small part of South India (a small place called Kishkinda which is not beyond a single district in modern Karnataka state of South India), so when vanaras themselves are restricted to a small location in south India, and when there are many other human characters mentioned in Ramayana whom Rama met in South India.. how can we say that south Indians are called monkeys??
    It is not at all logical to say so.

    Also, note that it was only because of vanaras that Rama was able to cross the sea, and fight Ravana.. in fact almost the entire second half of Ramayana is about vanaras.. and everywhere vanaras , their intelligence, greatness, strength etc have been praised.. not teased like how humans tease monkeys..

    So it is completely wrong to give a racial overtone to Ramayana

    However, there are two things which I do not like in Ramayana.. one is the agnipravesha.. if I had to be in Ram’s place, either there would have been no agnipravesha, or it would have been for both husband as well as for wife.. for me trust is more important, so there would have been no question of agnipravesha at all..
    Secondly, sending sita back to forest, I find it very cruel sending a pregnant woman to forest merely based on hearsay. If Rama really had to appease his citizens he should have given up the throne again, and should have gone to the forest along with Sita again, instead of sending her alone..

    On the other hand, yes personally I like Mahabharatha and Krishna more than Ramayana/Rama, Kaliyug is more related to Dwapar than to the values of Tretayug :)
    I remember somehow finding it difficult to relate to the Russian society of those days when reading Tolstoy’s Anna Karenina!

  • Ramana

    Gururaj,
    I don’t know it is ignorance or arrogance on your part, bundling all other revered stuff with Ramayana.
    Mahabharat is most dynamic and electrifying story with a charismatic character Krishna. Krishna exhibits an extraordinary powers, gives profound wisdom for the meaning of life through Bhagavd Gita and same time exhibits common human qualities like cunningness, sexual prowess and diplomacy.
    In my view Mahabharata stands top of my list !!

  • Ramana

    Gurudev,
    we have one of the options. If we take your version is right then we have to dismiss there is NO RAMA as such in reality and accept it is a great mythological story, since there are no humans with tails exist in reality.
    If we accept Ramayana and RAMA are real then we have to accept south Indians are depicted as monkeys .( Note the changes in 5000 years from the point of evolution is very minimum)

  • http://suchindailies.blogspot.com Suchin

    I have wondered how much is described about Raama Raajya? We keep talking about this, but how many of us really know how Raama raajya was? Isn’t it post Rama Ravana war since till then Raama was either in forests or protecting Seeta.

    Where can I read about this?

    Thanks

  • vijay

    Comeo n Gururaj, plz stop all this stupid stuff about how cultured people are. Plz note that whereever u go in the world, u see some people who dont bother to do things like the “”civilized”" people do. The greatest misconception that people from India and the subcontinent have about westerners (who started fork/knife culture) is that they are totally civilized. But having been here and mingled among westerners, I can safely say that the Indian culture should be looked up on by rest of the world. I have many examples to talk bad about western culture, but I shall NEVER do that, because it will definitely hurt their sentiments. Similarly I shall never hurt the sentiments of my northern brothers which we all know have many bad habits. So plz stop talking your mind out especially when infact we should be uniting against all odds and standing up together. This lack of respect to each other or lack of unity is what is not letting India to acheive success faster.

    Even now if u have to argue something about south culture, bring it on, I accept the challenge.

    Finally plz keep in mind that even though some southerners keep talking bad about Ramayana, for most of us we believe in Rama and many have their “”manedevaru”" (house GOD) as Rama. I can assure you that we follow most of what is preached in Ramayana in our day-to-day actions. Plz dont care about fools/aethiests who dont have bhakthi towards Rama. Rama cannot and should not be discussed sceintifically or historically. Its HIS bhakthi/devotion that has to be done, which many wont understand. Only when you truely devote to HIM and his preachings will all your scientific questions be answered (because you dont have hatred towards anyone and have an open heart and mind).

  • Gururaj

    Hi GD,

    You are missing the point I am trying to make. south indians (not all of them but a section) are getting wrapped up in thier little thing (hate to call IT success yet) they have found recently while farmers are dying in these states and some sections have suddenly started ridiculing all of the vedic culture which is the only thing that can truly bind the nation.

    my point of criticizing was how easily success or even small bit of it can go to one’s head and that would be unbecoming.

    and regarding the eating food thing, yes I went overboard on it and apologies to all southies. There is nothing wrong in eating food with ones hands. I do it myself.

    However I have observed that in my own circle many southies dont wash their hands b4 eating food whereas the northies tend do that.

    Rgds

  • http://www.hitxp.com/ Gurudev

    Gururaj
    You are saying that let us not divide north and south, and yet are making derogatory comments against south Indians. What is wrong if one uses his complete hand to eat the food. It matters only when you know that your hands are not clean :)
    I had some of my worst experiences in north India, when I for the first time traveled in north Indian trains (this was in UP), and it had nothing to do with south Indian trains being more cleaner.. it was about the way people behaved in a completely uncivilized manner there… we had reserved tickets and yet some goons were occupying our seats and were unwilling to give up the seats which we rightly owned.. and we all know that this is not one isolated incident that happened only to me.. I think eating food with bare hands is a hundred times better than this sort of behavior towards a fellow human..

    It is very important for India that states like UP and Bihar are developed and brought to speed with others.. else there will be a modern developed world in rest of India (predominantly south) and some undeveloped states in the North.. This is very dangerous to the Indian society.
    Gujarat should be a role model for the north Indian states..

    Ramana
    I do not agree that south Indians are depicted as monkeys in Ramayana.. They are called vanaras, not kapis..
    Vanara in sanskrit means two things, vana nara meaning humans living in forests AND va-nara meaning humans with monkey like tails. Monkeys are called in Sanskrit as vana kapi or kapi or markata, NOT as vanara.
    While wandering in the forest of South India Rama also met other humans other than vanaras. Infact the geography of vanaras mentioned in South India is mainly of Kishkinda which is a small place in modern Karnataka near Hampi.

    We should remember that in those days most of south India was full of dense forests like Dandakaranya.. on the other hand vanaras themselves were said to be living all over the world including in North India.. in Ramayana when Rama prepares to attack Lanka, Sugreeva sends a summon to vanaras all over the world to join the army.
    Vanaras then arrived from different parts of the world to help Rama, and the places mentioned are Himalayas, Meru (in modern tibet), Vindhyas (modern Madhya pradesh), etc. There are also other geographies whose modern locations we are not sure about like Dhumragiri, Ajjanparvat. There are also mentions of vanara locations like places where Sun always shines and always sets (probably poles).
    So to summarize, there is no racist overtone of any kind in Ramayana!

  • Gururaj

    so as per you south indians are realizing their own strenght and time has come to do away with Ramayana which is basically a distorted version of truth????

    does

    Veda,
    Upanishad,
    Bramhma sutra
    Bhagavad Gita,
    etc … fall in the same category as Ramayana??? ie distorted versions of truth???

    May be you should enlighten others what you think are the sources of truth before saying “”The truth will set you free ”"

  • ramana

    Ignorance is bliss! If you read critically Ramayana the facts are obivious!
    South Indians are slowly realizing their own strength than some one’s version of the truth.
    I do personally believe Rama is extraordinary king and lead aesthetic life , but Valmiki’s writings and his depictions are troublesome.
    The truth will set you free …

  • Gururaj

    India’s nationalism is based on shared values of Ramayana. If Ramayana is really having racial overtones, why does every regional language have a version of it?
    why did entire nation come to a stand still when Ramayana serial was being telecast on national TV?
    why are the stories of Ramayana cherished even in countries like Thailand, Indonesia, Cambodia etc..? So Ramyana not only bonds India but is shared accross South Asia as well. Even USA has come to recognise that and says South Asia is India’s region.
    Ram and Ramayana is iconic of India’s nationalism irrespective of faith & religion one belongs to it.
    You are hitting at the soul of India by denying Ramayana.
    If Ramayana is no there, there is no real reason for the unity of India. So my hard hitting comments were just to highlight the importance of Ramayana which you have dismissed so casually. It is a very grave comment to say that Ramayana should be banned and when you say such things you should it really back it with serious facts and tight reasoning and not say it casually.

  • ramana

    Gururaj,
    while you are preaching nationalism you are spewing venom and hatred. . I don’t know how you that called civilized!!!?
    1) “”they are very fanatical and obsessive of their language, culture etc..”"

    –Nothing wrong to have passion about your own culture and language with out criticizing others.

    “”2) They generally lack good communication and leadership skills though they are intelligent and hardworking.”"

    - Stereo typing is another form of hatred!

    3) Marrying maternal uncle is wide spread in south. In the rest of the world that would be considered as incest.

    Though I admit that there is problem in this area
    , if you call this is wide spread is over hyped allegation.

    4) Their eating habits are most uncivilized using the whole of their hand to handle food. If you show a typical south Indian eating sambar rice on camera, one would feel like puking
    - Here you make yourself uncivilized by talking through your ass .For your information humans are not borne with spoons and forks.
    Genetically hands are meant for eating food!
    No religious book, nor even epic, sneak through the process
    and insult some section of the country.
    I am going to stand for that right until my last breath!

  • Gururaj

    Hi Ramana,

    These are the things I find typical about south indians:

    1) they are very fanatical and obssesive of their language, culture etc..
    2) They generally lack good communication and leadership skills though they are intelligent and hardworking.
    3) Marrying maternal uncle is wide spread in south. In the rest of the world that would be considered as incest.
    4) Thier eating habits are most uncivilzed using the whole of thier hand to handle food. If you show a typical south indian eating sambar rice on camera, one would feel like puking.

    I know I have been a bit harsh in criticizing south but my point is let us not get carried away in this south/north divide. After living for thousands of years in a contiguos land that has no real natural barrier restricting movement of people I find the north/south mentality a bit ridiculous. India being such a vast country, ovbviously there is going to be some amount of regionalism whatever one might do, but this regionalism is only of incidental importance.

    Regards

  • ramana

    Ramayanam in my view is full of racial overtones.
    It depicts south Indians are monkeys and Sri lankans are non human.All dark looking Indians are depicted as sub humans.
    It is insult to particularly south Indians and Srilankans.
    This book should be banned !!!
    Hint: There are no temples for RAMA

  • Pushkar Bhatnagar

    Dear VC

    It is a brilliant piece of information. I have gone thru these articles earlier also.

    The description of Ayodhya in Valmiki Ramayana itself suggests how advanced was our civilization in building construction and town planning during the times of Rama. Ramayana describes Ayodhya to be 12 Yojan by 3 Yojan in size having vast and wide roads, markets and lanes of houses built adjacent to one another. It also talks about multi-storeyed buildings in Ayodhya. Many cities like Ayodhya are also mentioned like Kashi, mithila, Magadh, kishkindha and so on.Such an advanced civilization cannot come up overnight.

    In fact Rig Veda talks of a number of cities / towns or villages. I would request you to refer to a link below

    http://www.bharatvani.org/books/rig/index.htm

    It is a book available on net by the title “”Rig Veda- A historical analysis”". A reading of this book itself suggests that Rig Veda has been composed over atleast 3000 years. Given your interest in the subject, I would suggest you to glance through the pages of this book and if possible make your own analysis about the time of composition of Rig Veda on it’s basis.

    Rig veda has ten mandals and its tenth mandal is considered to be the latest. This Mandal at hymn 10.93.14 mentions the name of Lord Rama – as a living king.

    From the above, it can be easily worked out that if the approximate time of conposition of 10th Mandal was around 5100 BC then the time of composition of the earliest mandals can be conservatively taken to be around 8000 BC or earlier. (I am using the analysis given in the referred book as base). If rig veda suggests existence of many towns and villages, I am not surprised that we found a city off the coast of Gujrat dating to about 7500 BC.

    Please appreciate that barring the astronomical mode of dating, every other method of dating involves large approximations running into several hundred / even thousands of years.

    Pushkar

  • VC

    edit: I tried to post this before the above post, but it did not take. I am trying again.

    Puskharji/Gurudev,

    I would like to know how this archeological find fits into your understanding of the vedic timeline (Rama’s birthdate included)

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/1768109.stm
    http://www.spiritofmaat.com/announce/oldcity.htm

    These are ruins of huge cities (the size of Manhattan) that lie 120′ underwater off the coast of Gujrat and have been dated to 9,500 years before present.

    Given its location and timing, what “”mythological”" city could it possible be? Do the vedas provide an explanation?

    PS: If this post is more appropriate here (http://hitxp.wordpress.com/2007/10/24/astronomical-dating-of-the-vedic-age/) please feel free to move it.

  • VC

    Another link pertaining to the above: http://www.hinduism.co.za/oldest.htm

  • vijay

    Hahahaha,

    Its interesting to see how people avoid you when you argue with them purely on facts and simple logics. Even I am thinking of writing a book that Lord Rama was born in 7000 BC and get my name all over the media ;) and when someone asks me to prove it, I shall be arrogant about my knowledge and tell my own story as to how sea levels rise and fall, how Valmiki didnt have telscopes, how 135 kings are mentioned in Books but still admantky try to prove my dates of 7000 BC are right ;)

    First of all we all need to follow Lord Rama’s path, first being – humble to everyone, not being arrogant about our knowledge/power/money. Only then we can go ahead in talking about Lord’s DOB. For me, anyway it doesnt matter when Lord was born, all it matters is that I should tred the path of TRUTH.

  • Pushkar Bhatnagar

    Thank you Vijay ji for concluding your discussion with me. I am much obliged.

    Pushkar

  • vijay

    Hello Pushkar,

    Thanks for replying back. Sorry that I hadnt seen your reply of Nov 27th about the degres of exaltation, thanks for pointing out that Valmiki never has mentioned about degrees. That is why I had in my earlier posts mentioned to you about whether you know anything about astrology. In astrology (which I dont think you believe in) it is a very well known fact that if a planet isnt exalted in exact degrees, the fruit of that planet is not that much. For example, there are many people born with sun in aries, but only 3-4 days in that month (april 22-26) is significant for sun to get supreme power, as it is during these days that sun is in approximately 10 degrees of exaltation in aries. But still not all born on these days have that much of sun power, because the ascendent in individual horoscopes matter, for example if two persons X and Y are born on these days, and X has ascendent in cancer, and Y has ascendent in Taurus, the person X has more chances of becoming a king (depending on other planetary positions) than Y. I am mentioning king because, sun is noted to give such power/fame. Hence if Lord Rama had sun in aries in 25 degrees, with still cancer ascendent, it is very difficult for him to have such fame. Hence you may clarify with any astrologer and come back to me, they will say the same thing, because it is ABC of astrology. Hence one needs to look at such dates wherein most of the planets are in exact degree of exaltation. By the way did you also know that Ravana has the same planetory positions of Rama except for some changes like his ascendent being Libra, etc. Even his sun was exalted but he became a bad KING, but still he had power and fame. So, it means that Ravana must have been born in such a date wherein the planetory positions are similar to that of Lord Rama’s. But as we all have read that Ravana was not born on the same date as Rama, this means that Ravana must have been born thousands of years before Rama. It makes sense only if you know the story of Ravana and Karthyavirarjuna, where Karthyaveerarjuna imprisons Ravana, and Lord Shiva asks his disciple Lord Parashurama to get Ravana out of prison. Hence Ravana was there during Parashurama’s period, which means he was born thousands of years before Rama.
    I am saying all this to reinforce the fact of astrology that for such powerful horoscopes, planets NEED to be in exact degrees of exaltation. Also, who knows if Valmiki had any panchanga to assist him in knowing the planetory positions. Please remember that the sages had mentioned about planetory movements without the aid of TELESCOPES.

    And please correct your earlier posts where you mentioned moon being in gemini, which is not right.

    You said that you only put in dates between 99999BC and 2000AD. This is what I was fearing. This means that you simply cant tell if the same planetory combinations occurred before 99999BC. So how can you attribute your dates of 5114 BC to Lord Rama’s Birth, and write a book on it. I agree that 5114 BC might have the same planetory positions, but given that there might be other dates before 99999BC, you CANNOT claim that Lord Rama was born on this date. This is what I called writing to suit your own story.

  • http://nagamurali.wordpress.com nagamurali

    Pushkar ji, I have posted a comment earlier to look at an important observation on Sri Rama’s horoscope. Valmiki Ramayana does not say that Sri Rama has 5 exalted planets. The verses describing his birth only state that he had 5 planets either in exaltation or own houses. The same verses say that Moon was in Punarvasu Nakshatra in his birth chart and the tithi he was born was Navami. If Moon is in Punarvasu and tithi is Navami, Sun can not be in Aries and hence can not be in exaltation.
    Please take this point into consideration.

  • Pushkar Bhatnagar

    Vijaya

    You have remarked:
    “”It seems you are in a hurry to publish your book and get acclaimation, and turn facts upside down to suit your story, which is what most westernised intellectuals means. And by westernized intellectuals, I mean those who want to desperately prove their theory to get fame, irrespective of its consequences to actual truth in history. “”

    Let me clarify, I am in no hurry to publish any book. My book was published about 4 years back in 2004.
    Please do not attribute motives like ‘desire to get acclaimation’ without any basis. Limit yourself to discussion regarding technical aspects of my work rather than making personal comments.

  • Pushkar Bhatnagar

    Vijaya

    I copy the question that you have put below:

    “”And finally reframing my question – all I wanted to clarify was that, did you just put into the software details such as Sun is exalted in Aries, because if you do that way it is not right. You need to put into the software that Sun was in 10 degrees of aries, which is the exact exaltation point. Similarly for all other planets.”"

    I had replied to it as under (my post of 27.11.2007)

    “”He (Valmiki) simply says that five planets were in their exalted zodiac signs and not that they were at X, Y or Z degrees. Hence, location of the planet in the range of that particular zodiac sign, may be spanning about 30 degrees each, is the only thing mentioned by valmiki. This has been interpreted as it is and on the dates arrived at by me, the planets were well within the range of these zodiacs. “”

    What else you want me to clarify? I have explained that Valmiki Ramayan does not say that at the time of birth of Lord Ram Sun was at 10 degrees in Aries. He simply mentions that Sun was in Aries. Sun being exalted at 5 degree or 10 degree or 10.5 degree is your interpretation, atleast during the time of Valmiki counting degrees was not expected because Valmiki did not have telescopes and Sextants. Same is true for all planetary positions.

    If you still cannot comprehend what I mean to say, please excuse me.

  • Pushkar Bhatnagar

    Vijaya

    Here is my post of 13th Nov. on Repetition of Planetary positions. I have copied it again for you.

    Dear All

    The normal view that the planetary combinations are very repetitive in nature is very natural because this remains the normal perception of everyone. But in actual practice this preposition is not well founded. I say so for I have faced this question on so many occasions and answered it to persons with a highly diverse educational background.

    Let me explain. Repetition of one planet in its orbit is simple. Say Saturn completes its orbit around sun in 30 years and therefore if it is in Libra today, it will come back to Libra in 2037 AD. Jupiter completes one rotation around Sun in 12 years and therefore if it is seen in Virgo today, it will be back in Virgo in 2019 AD.

    What is the possibility of both these planets coming back to Libra and Virgo respectively? Answer is simple find the LCM of 30 and 12. It is 60 so after 60 years two will repeat their positions together. Hence in 2067 AD Saturn will be back in Libra while Jupiter will be in Virgo.

    However, things are not so simple in planetary movements. Taking LCM will work only when we deal with integers. Actually Saturn completes its revolution in 29.657296 years or 10,759.22 earth days. For Jupiter this period is 11.862615 years or 4,330.666 earth days. For
    Mercury it is 87.97 earth days, Venus it is 0.615 years or 224.7 days and so on. With these kinds of period of revolution the simple method of taking LCM to work out the period of repetition of all these planets together will not work. You will argue that we can simply multiply all the periods of revolution to find out the period of
    repetition. Here again there is an issue.

    Since we all make observations from earth, to us Sun appear to be moving and that is why sun is classified as a PLANET in such observations. Besides its revolution of 12 zodiacs in one year, due to precession of equinoxes, Sun appears to be moving in a cycle of about 25,765 years. If you make an earth centric observation and record the position of Sun today, then it will not comeback to the
    same place again until 27,772 AD. Now what do we get. When sun comes to the same place where will be other planets. You may argue that Suns position is not given by Valmiki in terms of exact degrees.
    Rather it is mentioned to be in one zodiac, which spans about 30 degrees. In the precessional cycle Sun would remain in one zodiac for about 2300 years. I agree that yes this is the limitation set by the Suns precessional cycle. Within the span 2300 years or so, the combination of all other planets should repeat. Otherwise it will be
    possible only when sun comes back again to that zodiac.

    So in this combination of nine planets (Sun included as a planet) we have some items like Sun taking 25,765 years for its revolution and we also have moon which does not even take one full earth day to move around earth and changes its position in less than a day. I must
    point out that Moon being the fastest mover in the sky poses the biggest problem. It remains in one unique position on every day of the lunar year. That means for every day its position in the sky is unique. So finding out the time period of repetition of all the nine planets put together remains any mathematician s delight.

    I am not a mathematician (though an engineer by educational background) but before writing a book and making it open to public criticism, I at least verified twice, with the help of the software I used, whether this combination of all nine planets put together repeats on any other date between 99999 BC and 2000 AD. Answer I
    found was negative.

    Another point, it is not something peculiar to Lord Rams birth time. For every one of us, if we know the position of all planets and the Luni-Solar calendar day (which was shukla navmi for Lord Ram), then that combination will also be unique.

    Besides above, there are some peculiar features in the planetary combination for the date of birth of Lord Ram which do not normally occur very often. I do not know how much knowledge of astronomy you have so would not write about it in detail. Briefly, one of the peculiarities is that in that phase of waxing moon there should have
    been just 13 or at the most 14 days. (as against 15 days normally).

    In case of Lord Ram Valmiki has given details of planetary positions and other astral data for a number of subsequent events. After the date of birth becomes the base date, the planetary data for all these
    subsequent events also tally. This is once again a feature which is self corroborative in nature. No doubt I agree with you that astronomical data in Valmiki Ramayana is very feeble but in my opinion it is enough to arrive at a valid conclusion.

    Pushkar Bhatnagar

  • ursri

    I am just toddler in front of all learned and who are sincerely working towards finding facts. Just curious to know certain points. If the following points are adding value to the discussion, i request any learned ones to explain for general benefit.
    1. I heard there are several version of Ramayana. Is it true?
    Related questions…
    2. If 4 yugas constitute to one mahayuga then the same treta/dwapa may repeat. Then what about reincarnation of Rama avatara in another treta yuga. This question arised due to the existence of mutliple version of puranas. Our vedic teacher says, all the puranas are true for specific mahayugas. Want to know more about it.
    3. Does Dhashavataras repeat for different manvantara? If not so then when/in which yugas Matsya, kurma, varaha, vanama avataras can be found?
    list goes on…

    Thanks in advance to all those who tries to find facts.

    - ursri

  • vijay

    Hello Pushkarji,

    I havent counted the number of kings mentioned in sacred texts, but as I had glanced thru some of them I thought they were many, and thanks for putting exact number to them, i.e., 135, which itself is huge. Now LOGICALLY arguing according to KNOWN FACTS, let us assume each king ruled for approximately 30 years that too one after the other immediately, that gives 135 x 30 = 4050 years (assuming you havent missed any other sacred text talking of other kings, other than these 135). So we come to the conclusion that 5114 BC – 4050 = 1000 BC is the time when mahabharatha happenned. Is this right? Which definitely is wrong. This is according to FACTS that we have of present. and please remember that TRUE FACTS = AVAILABLE FACTS + HIDDEN FACTS.

    I didnt quite understand your scale of 360, plz explain that. All I said was 14 years in thretha yuga might mean 14 years in their time-scale.

    “”About repetition of planetary positions I have already answered to you at length. My reply is available on this blog. What more do you expect. You may be a free person, but for me time is in short supply. I can not keep explaning the same thing again and again because the person on the other side has not understood it.”"
    —– Please could you pinpoint where exactly you have explained this, I am sorry if I have missed it.

    And finally reframing my question – all I wanted to clarify was that, did you just put into the software details such as Sun is exalted in Aries, because if you do that way it is not right. You need to put into the software that Sun was in 10 degrees of aries, which is the exact exaltation point. Similarly for all other planets. Also in your initial posts, you have mentioned that moon was in gemini, but moon of Lord Rama is actually in Cancer (own house of moon), please correct that post of yours.

    And Finally I hate to judge people, but the way you are replying to people with genuine doubts and interest, it seems that you are very arrogant of your knowledge and dont care about others’ knowledge. “”VIDYA VINAYAM DADATHI”" – knowledge gives humbleness, but in your case it seems the opposite. It seems you are in a hurry to publish your book and get acclaimation, and turn facts upside down to suit your story, which is what most westernised intellectuals means. And by westernized intellectuals, I mean those who want to desperately prove their theory to get fame, irrespective of its consequences to actual truth in history. This is what has damaged our rich history over the past centuries, and you seem to be tredding that path with the knowledge of astronomy that you have acquired. Please be more patient before attributing dates to Lord Rama’s birth.

    Thanks,
    Vijay.

  • Pushkar Bhatnagar

    Vijaya Ji

    You have already accused me of beating around the bush but I find that you do not utter even a single sentence which is factually correct.

    Now read your message first and look at what I am saying here.

    Where have I suggested that Mahabharat occurred in 2000 BC and there was a gap of 3000 years during which descendents of Lord Rama / Chandra Vansha ruled ?

    You are using the words “” both ramayana and mahabharatha talk of huge number of descendents of Lord Rama and talk of hundreds of ascendents of chandra vansha”".

    Have you ever read Ramayana? It does not talk of any descendent of Lord Ram except Kusha. It ends with Kusha and Luv and sons of other three brothers of Lord Rama becoming kings. You are using a vague phrase like “”huge descendents”". What is huge descendents??

    Please read purans or bhagwat. You can count exact number of kings which have ruled during the different yugas. You may also find a list of kings starting from Kush (s/o Shri Rama) to Brihad Bala (descendent of Lord Ram who fought Mahabharata). Count them and then come back to me. You will find that every single Puran has a different list. The names and number of kings differ completely. For Treta Yuga, for example, in some Purans only 65 kings are listed but in Bhavishya Puran as many as 135 kings are listed. In my yesterday’s post I have mentioned that 135 kings have been mentioned for a period of 12,96,000 years. I have quoted this number from Bhavisya Puran. Why don’t you read some of these purans and and tell me where I am wrong?

    Then you are saying “”So it is quite not logical to assume that there was a gap of just 3000 human years between ramayana and mahabharatha. By claiming Rama was born in 5114 BC you are playing into the hands of westernised intellectuals, who will come up with the argument that there never existed the hundreds of kings mentioned in mahabharatha”".

    Please tell us what is the logical conclusion according to your intellect. I have not assumed anything. I am writing bare facts. And for God sake, do not think that I am influenced by some western forces. President Bush has not called me up so far, to corrupt the minds of innocent hindus. What is the meaning of Westenised intellectuals ? Intellect is independent of east or west; white skinned or black skinned persons.

    Your post says “”Also most of us know that by 14 years in tretha yuga we mean 14 years in that scale and not as you mentioned (25 days). “”

    Which scale you are talking about?? Can you clarify. Do you mean multiplication factor of 360?? That factor applies to all the yugas uniformly. Even in Kali Yuga also multiplication factor of 360 applies, that is why it’s span is declared to be 4,32,000 years long. So which scale you are talking of? Can you clearly mention what do you want to say?

    About repetition of planetary positions I have already answered to you at length. My reply is available on this blog. What more do you expect. You may be a free person, but for me time is in short supply. I can not keep explaning the same thing again and again because the person on the other side has not understood it.

    Coming to your last point – reply to your post of 13th Nov. Believe me I read that again. I could not see what are your questions there. Will you please re-frame your points in clear manner and post them again. I will attempt an answer to them.

    Pushkar

  • http://www.factusa.org Vikrama

    Hi All Learned Guruz, I am curious to know
    - what happened to Rama after Sita died [when?]
    - how did Rama died? [when/where]
    - what happened to his blood line?

  • Ramana

    By all accounts and if you read Ramayana critically Rama is NOT god! He is an extraordinary king , with aesthetic qualities. Rama never claimed himself GOD.
    On the other hand, Krishna exhibited several powers, and repeated that HE is Omnipresent and savior of all.

  • vijay

    Hello Gurudev/Pushkar

    Pushkarji, you seem to beat around the bush. But if I am write are you suggesting that the span of yugas that we all believe is wrong. First of all let us assume you are correct and there is no concept of yuga, then by 5114 BC you are suggesting that mahabharatha took place at around 2000 BC, which means that there was a gap of 3000 years in which the descendents of Lord Rama ruled and the ascendents of Chandra vansha of mahabharatha ruled. But if I am right, both ramayana and mahabharatha talk of huge number of descendents of Lord Rama and talk of hundreds of ascendents of chandra vansha. So it is quite not logical to assume that there was a gap of just 3000 human years between ramayana and mahabharatha. By claiming Rama was born in 5114 BC you are playing into the hands of westernised intellectuals, who will come up with the argument that there never existed the hundreds of kings mentioned in mahabharatha.

    Also most of us know that by 14 years in tretha yuga we mean 14 years in that scale and not as you mentioned (25 days).

    And finally what I am saying is just this: I may agree that the date you arrived at may have the planetary positions mentioned as in Ramayana, but what is the guarantee that this is the only date in the past, so HOW CAN YOU ATTRIBUTE THIS DATE TO LARD RAMA, AND NOT ANY OTHER PREVIOUS DATE WHICH THE SOFTWARE MIGHT NOT BE ABLE TO SHOW.

    Also I am once more reminding you to plz answer to post of Nov 13th. (This is the third time I am reminding you of this).

    Thanks,
    Vijay.

  • Ranjit

    Great findings. Keep it up!

  • Pushkar Bhatnagar

    Vijaya ji

    I did not know that you expected a reply from me on why exaltation in terms of degrees has not been considered in my work.

    Let me put it this way. Can we believe that when Valmiki recorded planetary positions in Ramayana, he was sitting with a telescope or a sextant to note down exact degrees where those planets were located in the zodiac?

    If we are trying to interpret what Valmiki wrote, we must read it in a manner in which it was written. He simply says that five planets were in their exalted zodiac signs and not that they were at X, Y or Z degrees. Hence, location of the planet in the range of that particular zodiac sign, may be spanning about 30 degrees each, is the only thing mentioned by valmiki. This has been interpreted as it is and on the dates arrived at by me, the planets were well within the range of these zodiacs.

    Hope I have clarified.

    Pushkar

  • Pushkar Bhatnagar

    Gurudev,

    Just read your message. Thanks for your commnets but being a moderator you need not defend me on anything.

    I have used one of the most accurate software that is available today to generate the skyview. I can prove it and I have done it earlier also. None of the points mentioned here by anyone is surprising or new to me. It is my habit. I take my time to reply and allow the other guy to fume for sometime.

  • Pushkar Bhatnagar

    I request my friends to take a stand on the issue.

    Whether they believe that what is written in Rig Veda / Ramayana is correct or they think that what ever in written in Purans is correct and the text of Rig Veda is junk!!

    Let them say in clear Yes or No.

  • Pushkar Bhatnagar

    Gurudev, Save me.

    Here are your friends – ready to break my head for not understanding Yuga concept at all. I just want to make two points:-
    1. I have been doing this explaining work on these very issues for last 4 years to every Tom, Dick and Harry with lot of patience. But there is limit to everything. Your friends believe that it is for the first time such a brilliant issue has been raised by them.
    2. You may be aware I am hard pressed for time. I am not sitting idle. My job demands lots of my time and energy. On a blog, one is not expected to discuss a concept like Yuga or my entire work. The least your friends could do is to atleast once read what I say in my book. How have I reached the conclusions. There is a full chapter on Precession of Equinox and other basic astronomy concepts in my book – with a view to raise the level of understanding of the reader about the data in the book. Your friends may be interested in knowing that I have an 8 inch refrector telescope on my roof top.

    Last but not the least, my book has been critically analysed by reputed institutions in the field of Astro Physics. They have not been able to find any serious error in my findings. Hence, I do not feel very encouraged to answer each and every trivial / peripheral issue rasied by anyone anywhere.

    I am copying below an old file that I have retrived today on the subject ‘Yuga system and Date of Rama’. From the references I have given in it, your friends would perhaps believe that I have read Rig Veda, atleast seven Purans, Ramayana, Yajur Veda etc. Here is a copy of that article

    Yuga system and Date of Rama 5114 BC

    In the absence of any concrete time period assigned to the era of Lord Ram, traditionally it is believed that Lord Ram was born more than ten Lakh (10, 00,000) years ago. The reason, why we are obsessed with this timeframe, lies in the Yuga system described by the Purans according to which Lord Ram was born in the Treta Yuga, which ended 8, 69,105 years ago (counted from 2004 AD).

    Please note that word ‘Yuga’ appears at least 33 times in Rig Veda but no where it prescribes the duration of Yuga. The word Yuga has been used in several contexts and senses. From the hymn at 1.158.6 of Rig Veda, one can only infer that Yuga was less than 10 years in duration. At some places in Rig Veda, word Yuga implies a block of five years – Samvatsara, Parivatsara, Idavatsara, Anuvatsara and idavatsara.

    Ramayana also mentions of Yuga but no where the span of yuga is prescribed. It implies long epochs of time but what exactly is the time span of each yuga is not mentioned in any of the Veda or the Ramayana. These details are found only in the Purans, which are much more later compositions
    as compared to Vedas and Ramayana.

    The cycle of creation and destruction of civilizations has been explained through the concept of Yuga in Purans. According to this concept a Maha yuga consists of four yugas namely,

    Sat Yuga,
    Treta Yuga,
    Dwapar Yuga and
    Kali Yuga.

    The span of the Sat Yuga is mentioned as 4800 Divya years,
    Treat Yuga is stated to be of 3600 Divya years,
    Dwapar Yuga is said to be 2400 Divya years long while
    Kali Yuga is stated to be of 1200 Divya years.

    One Divya year is stated to be equal to 360 normal human years (1 year of 365.25 days as are known to us). Therefore, if measured in terms of the normal years, the span of the
    Sat Yuga is mentioned as 17,28,000 years (4800 x 360),
    Treata Yuga was equal to 12,96,000 years(3600 x 360),
    Dwapar Yuga was of 8,64,000 years(2400 x 360),
    and the present Kaliyug is 4,32,000 years(12 00 x 360), long.

    In this manner a complete Maha yuga is declared to be 43,20,000 years long. The Purans state that 27 such Maha yugas (cycles) have already been completed and the 28th cycle is running now.
    In the present cycle, Lord Ram was born in the Treta Yuga. As per the calculations, in the year 2004 AD, 5105 years of the Kali Yuga elapsed and balance 4, 26,895 years of this yuga will remain. Given this perspective, it is generally argued that since Lord Ram was born in the Treata Yuga, the date of his birth should be about 10, 00,000 years ago.

    The concept is Yuga is not confined to only declaring thier length in years. There are many other details given. In fact the society, its virtues in all the different Yugas has been given in the Yuga system in purans. Let us now see another interesting aspect of the Puranic Yuga system.
    While describing the Yugas, it has been invariably stated that in the Sat Yuga the life span of Man was 400 years. In the Treta Yuga he had a life of 300 years, in Dwapar Yuga man lived for 200 years on an average while in the Kali Yuga they had a life of only up to 100 years. (Refer Matsya Puran 142.75, 144.26-27 and 144.46; Vayu Puran 57.83, 58.27-28 and 59.5 for instance).

    So in the most cherished Yuga – Sat Yuga- the life of a person is declared as 400 years but in most condemned Yuga – Kali Yuga- the age of man is mentioned as just 100 Years.

    Now, let us refer to some verses of Rig Veda. There is no dispute that Rig Veda was compiled at the earliest phase of our civilization. The Vedas are concedered to be the most sacred of all texts. Therefore, if at all there was a Sat Yuga, the Rig Veda must have been compiled in that Yuga. Now let us examine a few hymns of Rig Veda, which mention about the lifespan of human beings in those times. The first book of Rig Veda is considered to be the oldest among the ten books it consists of. In this first book, at 1.64.14
    the author prays to the almighty, “”May our sons and grandsons live for 100 years!”" At 1.89.9 the author of the hymn says, “”God, you have fixed the age of the man at 100 years!”" In the second book at 2.27.10 the age of the human beings is mentioned as 100 years again. We should not forget that the year described in Rig Veda is
    the same year, as we know of it today consisting of Six ritus of two months each. Now that the Rig Veda mentions the age of man as 100 years in those times and Yuga concept states that the life of man was 100 years in Kali Yuga, does that mean that Rig Veda was written
    in Kali Yuga?

    Certainly not! It was compiled in the earliest phase of our civilization. Then, what is correct? Rig Veda saying that the age of Man in that period was 100 years or Purans which say that in Sat Yuga man lived for 400 years. What is more authentic Rig Veda or Purans?

    Second point, even within the Purans, which describe the Yuga system, there are fatal inconsistencies. For instance the Bhavisya Puran mentions the time period for which different rulers of the royal dynasties, including the dynasty of Lord Ram, ruled over their kingdoms. The time periods for which kings of Treta Yuga ruled has been mentioned as 3,600 years, 3,500 years as so on. Even for Lord Ram,
    it has been mentioned that he ruled Ayodhya for 1,100 years. (Pratisarga Parva, Part I, Chapter II, hymn 7).

    Now if the age of the man in Treta Yug was only up to 300 years how the kings could have reigns spanning up to 3,600 years!

    Next point to note is that Purans mention that the span of treta yuga was 12, 96,000 years and it also gives a list of 135 kings who ruled during the entire Treta Yuga. Now divide the span of Yuga with the number of kings and we find that on an average every king ruled around 9,600 years!

    So what should be taken as the age of man in Treta Yuga as per purans? 300 years, 3600 years or 9600 years or 20,000 years?

    In a similar manner one can see how inconsistent is the descriprtion for dwapar yuga etc.
    These details are in complete contradiction to the hymns of Rig Veda saying that age of Man was just 100 years during the time this sacred Veda was revealed to man by god.

    Further, in the specific case of Lord Ram, he was undisputedly born in Treta Yug. Purans say that 135 kings ruled in Treta Yug spanning about 12,96,000 years. Therefore, the average ruling span of every king was 9600 years. Hence, we may say that they lived on an average of about 20,000 years. ( immediately on birth they were not crowned kings and in later half of there life they
    handover the throne to their sons etc). If Lord Ram had also lived for the average life of 20,000 years, then there was no reason for such a hue and cry when he had to go for an exile of mere 14 years!
    He went to exile for only 14 ordinary years (not Divya years)!! If the life span of the man was 100 years then only a period of 14 years is significant. But if the people lived for, say 20,000 years then a period of 14 years is equivalent to only 25 days (less than a month) for the present age of 100 years. However, it is a fact that
    the father of Lord Ram could not survive the agony of sending him for an exile of 14 long years and died.

    It all shows how the ‘yuga’ span has been blown out of proportion in purans. It is not all in conformity with texts of Rig Veda or Ramayana. I have read Rig Veda and Ramayana not once but several times. I have read atleast seven Purans. My humble understanding is that Rig Veda and Ramayana texts are far more chaste and relaible than the later compilations like Purans, which were open to interpolations to record either the name of a new king or record the exploits of an existing king.

    Before concluding, I request you to ponder on the
    question whether it is necessary for Ram to be Lacs of years ancient
    to be a god?
    Christ was born a mere 2007 years ago and no Christian
    has ever doubted his credentials. Muslim religion came into
    existence just 1600 years ago. Then why our ego is hurt if Lord is proved to be born 7100 years ago?

    Pushkar

  • http://www.hitxp.com/ Gurudev

    Friends
    I think some of us are being overly protective and defensive about our culture and history, and I dont think there is any need to do so. Because in the end truth always triumphs, and this is not just a saying but a fact.

    For instance, Aryan Invasion Theory got disproved inspite of a well planned, large scale assault on our culture and history. There were nobody to protect the truth about the vedic past when Max Muller and Macaulay conspired. And still today, after research proved the existence of saraswati river, the linguistic theories, archeaological evidences, Indus and saraswati valley proofs, a even more detailed understanding of the ancient texts, etc have proved beyond doubt that AIT is wrong!!

    All ancient civilizations have been destroyed all over the world except for the vedic civilization in India. Today the ancient egyptian, roman, greek, mesopotomian, chinese, mayan, inca, sumerian,… none of these civilizations have been able to retain their culture and heritage in the world and have given in to the invaders…
    Only in India do you find the same culture being followed even after thousands and thousands of years, inspite of hundreds of attemps to terminate this culture..
    Even today the priests in the temples chant the same vedic chants that were chanted thousands of years ago!! We celebrate the same festivals, worship the same concept of God, follow the same scientific culture… This is the proof for the solid scientific base on which our vedic culture was created… the origin of our culture is apaurusheya.. not of any human origin.. there are no prophets who started our culture.. our culture and heritage needs no protectors.. for it itself is the protector of all humanity and life… sambhavaami yuge yuge

    So there is no need to be protective or defensive about any research works. If we think there is any flaw in the research, then let us just highlight that aspect and try to find an answer to it, instead of attacking the researcher on that. Even Einstein has done mistakes. I see no reason why Pushkarji’s research looks motivated. If the software had said 15000 BCE instead of 5000 BCE, pushkarji would have written the same in his book!

    And in this case, all our criticism should be on the software’s capabilities.. we dont even know what aspects this software takes into consideration and what not… it is not a scientific approach to write off the software without knowing what it really knows/calculates.. we could have gone through its user manual and checked if whether it addresses all our concerns.. if not, then suggested to look for a better software, and if its not there then make an attempt to build one..

    Also, I have a very important question to ask ourselves. How many of us have really shown interest in unearthing the real history and science of our ancient past??
    Look at the state of thousands of ancient temples in the country, it is very sad, broken statues, statues smuggled out of the country.. if the same heritage were in other countries, they would have made them national monuments.. in US I remember one of my friends saying that a building 2-3 centuries old is looked upon like an ancient structure.. we have structures thousands of years old.. what is their state??

    What is the kind of research ASI is doing? what kind of excavations are possible if one digs only 5 meters? What is the research that we have done in the sea shores around the country? The previous tsunami revealed an ancient temple near the tamilnadu sea shore.. why havent we discovered it on our own, considering this place was so near to the shore? What are the excavations that have been done all over the country in the ancient sites? Almost none!!

    We should appreciate that atleast there are some people who are trying to figure out what happened in the past, and when, where etc.. We should be aware that not many of us are doing that, and should encourage the researchers with the information we think that has been missed out in their research… in this way the research would become a movement of the masses.. when input comes from multiple directions, the research result would be very solid..

    So it would have been just enough if we had raised the questions or doubts we have about the research, in a professional manner, to Pushkar ji, and if there were any things that have been missed out, then he would probably include those factors and calculate it again..

    This attack what some of us showed here, is only best suited for people like MF Hussain, Macaulay, Max Muller.. They hurt the religious sentiments of people with no scientific angle to it..
    In case of research, we should always welcome it, and try to add more value to it, so that once we have the final solid result, we can always present it to the rest of the world and coming generations, and then we would also have a great scientific backing to our information..

    If we continue the research work of Pushkarji, given the fact that there are many others who are experts on other astronomical aspects, we can further refine the research and arrive at a more solid date which meets every scientific angle… if we are able to do that, dare any Karunanidhi speak the way he did now…

    To summarize, criticize the research and not the researcher.. in this way we will add more value to the research, because the criticism to the research will always have to be addressed to substantiate the original research, whereas criticism of the researcher would only get more and more ugly, and the original purpose of both the parties would be flawed.

    I dont think 5114 BCE is a value that would please the people with colonial/evangelical mindset, because this date itself would predate the bible’s interpreted date of creation, which says world was created some 4000 years before Christ!! Which is why Macaualy & co tried to restrict the oldest vedic text to 1500 BCE, allowing an earlier time of 1000 years or so for the imaginary aryan invasion, because according to their beliefs the great flood occured about a millenia before that :)

    So guys, please concentrate on adding more value to the research and refining it, instead of writing it off entirely..

  • Ramana

    Vikram,
    I do understand where you coming from, but what we do not want is replace one kind of fundamentalism with different kind.

  • Ranjit

    I don’t see why I should not point out about inaccuracies and the motives that drive publicity seeking “”researchers”". I have seen how these class of people esp females as described indulge in such vathams. Of course, I ‘ll go over the top if these self-appointed “”historians”" who know neither Jyotish nor Samskrit proclaim ‘profund’ earth-shaking finding and to put the icing on the cake for the Witzels of the world, go about triviliazing my family Deity Rama. This way they feel the tight T-shirt wearing crowd of pseudo journalists that don every english news channel will fall for such ‘secular discoveries’.

    Vijay you have a valid point on this finding using ‘dubious’ software. the very fact it produces a result that shows Sun In Dhanush instead of Mesham shows what happens when doesn’t have an inkling of Astrology indulges in speculation. Least can we expect that person to know of the precession of the equinoxes or the fact which of the Ephemerisis(Lahiri, Raman’s, Drik etc) now in use is accurate over long periods of time. This is the pitfall of many who attempt ‘research’ just using one passage as the truth and the rest are trivilized. To their limited intellect “”too many zeroes”" makes their study suspect (because they themselves have no bhakthi in the past Gurus or masters) and hence they choose the nearest possible date out of many possible ones to suit their pink skin admirers.

  • Ekalavya

    Both the desert cults are equally dangerous while one may be an open enemy remember how the competing denominations of the Church have infilitrated us since Independence One denomination used Edwina and the other more successful one is using Maino.. The Xian population of the NE states of Meghalaya, Nagaland and Mizoram increased from 17% at the time of Indian independence to over 60% now. And these chaps are like white ants they infiltrate without visibility and then pull down the structure – remember what happened to the Roman and Greecian civilization. They were obliterated once Christianity reached 51% of the population – today they are the cradles of crime!

  • http://www.factusa.org Vikrama

    This is what I FEAR!!!
    ……………………………………………………………………………..
    India 50yrs from now
    ===================
    1. There is a ban on visiting temples, Churches and other non-muslim places of worship.
    3. India is now an Islamic state, and Islam is the state religion.
    4. Non-Muslim women are repeatedly raped and killed and non-Muslims are living in small congested pockets. All the large bungalows of non-Muslims have been taken over by Islamic militia.
    5. Congress party has long been converted to United Islamic Congress.
    6 The government gives monetary incentive to all Christians, Hindus and Sikhs who convert Islam and do ‘TAUBA’.
    7. Taking the name ‘Ram’, Jesus or ‘Krishna’ is sacrilege punishable by severment of tongue!
    8 All non-Muslims who had run out of the country to USA and UK cry tears of blood, but cannot do anything about it. THEY JUST ABUSE THE PREVIOUS GENERATIONS OF ON-MUSLIMS WHO SOLD THEIR MOTHERLAND FOR VOTEBANK POLITICS.

    By the way that India 50 years later is not an economic powerhouse, it is today’s IRAQ happening 50 years later again.

    SO, HINDUS, BUDDHISTS, JEWS, SIKHS AND CHRISITIANS MUST UNITE BEFORE IT IS TOO LATE!!

  • http://www.factusa.org Vikrama

    Ramana-
    Could you please explain your allegation that I dont kow Hinduism? Boss its not a chapter which you learn, hinduism is something which you learn over the years by expr. and by adopting and practising….neway…all I want to promulgate here is that Muslim extremism will take over someday if it goes like this..I want people to understand if we dont act now, it will be a little 2 late…
    Go vote for the right party the least….& donate a few to factusa.org for doing the ground work.

    Peace!
    http://www.factusa.org

  • vijay

    Hello Ranjit, Pushkar

    First of all Ranjit plz cool down, your posts smell more of hatred towards someone rather than rational debates. Plz try to control your emotions which may be sometimes wrong. Try and understand that by bashing up a person who may be wrong, you are not proving him wrong but you are just shown out your frustration.
    I agree with you that some people publish incomplete work to get media attention, but it doesnt mean we should abuse them. If possible try and debate healthyly and prove your point.

    Also Pushkarji, I need to remind you that you didnt answer my doubts about the degrees of exaltation of planets (Nov13th post), which leads one to believe that you dont want to talk about tings which you havent done. You definitely have done an excellent work on astronomical dating, but plz keep in mind that you can only claim that the date of birth of Lord Rama matches with that of Jan10th 5114 BC and shouldnt claim that he was actually born on that date. On the one hand you claim to believe in Valmiki’s Ramayana and on the other you conveniently ignore that Lord Rama was born in Tretha Yuga which was millions of years ago. You also talk about 5114 BC claiming that sea levels match during that time, but cant sea levels rise and fall, which means that the assumption that sea levels monotonically increase/decrease is doubtful. Plz, you have put so much of effort in studying astronomy dont utilize it to do hasty research and publish books. If you really want to publish your knowledge then dont claim that Lord Rama was born on 5114 BC. To exactly find out when Lord Rama was born is almost impossible.

  • Ranjit

    Gr8 now you can go to sleep since this has disturbed you! Of late I have seen this new breed of “”researchers”" those who propund theories without rebutting the old ones first so as to proclaim originality ( the real reason being is they don’t know how to disprove the old ones). Don’t worry you will have your admirers among the NDTV/CNN-IBN viewers. I know when you have caught someone where it hurts most. I have also observed the same set of people who find it difficult to observe prescribed vedic rituals and indulge in vithanda vatham do fall for such “”profund”" discoveries mainly among among the T-shirt wearing untied hair/thilakless females.

  • Pushkar Bhatnagar

    Ranjit Ji

    Thanks for taking so much time to write these messages.

    Any reply – long or short, logical or illogical, will not satisfy you. I accept that I am a ‘fool of the first order’ to come out with a book like this without knowing anything about astronomy principles, ancient sanskrit literature, Yuga system, great personalities like Arya bhatta, Varaha mihir etc. If my work has disturbed you in your deep sleep, I am extremely sorry.

    If that pleases you, feel happy about it.

    Good luck

    Pushkar

  • Ranjit

    In the first line the “”not”" got omitted and the sentence should thus read “”not constants”"

  • Ranjit

    First line the not got omitted and the sentence should read “”not constants”"

  • Ranjit

    The Bhatnagar’s of the world also don’t realize the rotation and revolution or the precessions are constants (for convenience astrologers assume it is constant as they don’t vary much in the present human span of life) but when one considers large periods of time, it should be understood these are constantly changing and the time periods are getting longer thus at Rama’s time in Tretha Yuga the earth spun faster it’s ayanamsa was shorter and so was the period of revolution of the planets. What data does Bhatnagar’s software ( I gues could be astrological software) have for such constantly changing time periods?

  • Ranjit

    And before one propound theory that demolishes present ones , the right way is to say why the older ones were wrong and then go on to present their versions. Did these worthies attempt it?

  • Ranjit

    Bhatnagar like Hari is wrong by a huge margin. One cannot accept part of our Texts and trivialize the rest. Accepting Bhatnagar’s contention on dates. Is it not a fact that there could be many dates in the past that have the same astronomical events taking place? So for his convenience to suit pale skins he has chosen the nearest date to the present (is it suit the Biblical dates of creation for their ‘secular’ sponsors?). Has Mr Bhatnagar accounted for the precession of the equinoxes?

    The stupidest part is we all know that Kali Yuga is half of Dwapara Yuga (I am leaving out iconoclasts like Bhatnagar and Hari). Hence since these wiseheads claim that Rama and Krishna were only 2000 years apart then we are in the midst of the next Mahayuga’s Krita or Satya Yuga after the Pralayam and we no doubt have true embodiments of truth ruling the word like Antonia Maino; Bush and Mushy. Keep it up Bhatnagar’s and Hari’s we dont need the Hindu bashing Samskrit Dept of Witzels’ Harvard Univ to decry Hinduism.

    Has Bhatnagar or Hari read Surya Siddhanta, Arya Bhatiya or Brahma Siddhant at all? I would like to kalso know if they are Astrologers, Samskrit pundits or evn Mathematicians. Just having a software won’t do. Reading English transalations of Samskrit works won’t do as most Samskrit -English dictonaries have been corrupted by the evil conversion minded cultists. Many renowned scholars like Arun Shourie, Talagheri have shown how. Bhatnagar should be aware such publicity seeking, There was one Chidambara Iyer B.A in 1885 who made a hasty and ill-digested transalation of the Brihat Jataka of the great sage Varahmihira. Being neither a erudite Samskrit scholar nor a good astrologer but only with his abundant and excellent skills in Mathematics began his job with the help of Sundaresa Srowthigal (these bloody half baked Brahmins) transalating Varahmihiras difficult and technical works and ignoring the great commentaries by Bhattatopala and declared that since all Astrological names are Greekish and hence Varahmihira was influenced by the Greeks in his works (but little could he show any works in Greek on similar lines maybe the sight of pink skins make these bloody Brahmins get sucked in a whirlpool of self doubt). Laya for instance to this PAW is Greek and so is Hrid Roga (Hridaya Disease). Kriya is also Greekish?

    Varahmihira refers to Maya, Yavana, Manitha and Parasara. While Bhattatopala mentions that Yavana was a learned Mlecha (probably a Persian as Late Surya Narain said surmised) in Vikramadityas court (57BCE). This PAW (must have been the original secularist) says is a Mussalman! (a person who became a muslim even before the founder was born). Thus one can see how the Bhatnagar’s and Haris of this country behave much unlike Varahmihira whose treatise on Astrology he dedicates thus: He feels the vast and elaborate works on Astrological Science is so colossal before his time that anyone approaching it is bound to get disheartened and that he attempts to make them concise in varied and rich Samskrit prosody to make them attractive to the seeker!

  • http://www.hitxp.com/ Gurudev

    really interesting work nagamurali!
    very nice.. keep it up :)

  • http://www.hitxp.com/ Gurudev

    Pushkarji
    It is our great fortune that you are visiting this blog and enlightening us with great information. You are a role model to us.

    Thank you very much
    Gurudev

  • Ramana

    Vikram want to save Hindus around the world. But still does n’t know the definition of Hindu..
    He is looking to promote his agenda..nothing more than that..

  • nagamurali

    Interesting, though there is a lot of material here I am yet to go through.
    I have some thoughts on Sri Rama’s Horoscope. If anybody is interested, please have a look:
    http://nagamurali.wordpress.com/2007/11/23/sri-ramas-horoscope/

  • http://www.factusa.org Vikrama

    Thats very nice of you, we respect your contribution to the society. See Pushkar, all we want is a correct presentation of what is wrong and right and if possible promulgation of what FACTUSA.ORG is trying to accomplish. Please visit the site…
    Look @Taslima Nasreen case isn’t that pitiful. We are being threatened by the Muslim Extremist & I fear it will be too late for us to react…

    Lord Help us…

    http://www.factusa.org
    PS: Keep on doing the great job

  • Pushkar Bhatnagar

    Vikrama
    All of us need not have identical ways of contributing to the society.

    I live in India and day in and day out see the plight of poor hungry people here. I must admit, I have no reason to look beyond.

    I am a small time salaried person and a cancer patient too. Yet out of by meagre earnings I provide money to support 57 families (for food) of four villages of Bhadrak district in Orissa, on regular basis. I hope you know that Orrisa is one of the most poverty ridden states in our country.

    Hope you appreciate my view point too.

    Pushkar

  • http://www.factusa.org Vikrama

    I am a pakka Vedic/partial Hindu believer, at times I am agnostic too…
    FACTs educates people in USA/globally about the current situtaion, FACT is in the process of getting recognized by United Nations. We travel to the villages and document /help the situation, bring to the world and media..
    At the end of day we want to show the world the plight of the minorities in Muslim Countries. We want to create awarness so that people can react!!!! and help bring a difference to wz going on in our neighbouring countries….

    Hope that helps
    http://www.factusa.org
    PS: Full narration is beyond blogging…..

  • Ramana

    Did they run planetary positions at the time of Rama’s birth with different software and they arrived approximately same date? If not what is the reason?

  • Pushkar Bhatnagar

    Vikrama

    I read your two comments.

    When it doesn’t matter to you whether Ram existed or not (2nd Coment), I will not waste my time in replying to your question on Parshuram.

    About saving the world and Hindus in Pak etc. please tell us what you have done so far and lead us from the front. I will consider following you.

    Pushkar

  • Pushkar Bhatnagar

    Sainath

    I visited the site you mentioned in the post. On that site itself is an interview of Mr. Hari founder of that NGO.
    Here is a question about date of Rama and reply of Mr. Hari to it, which is self explanatory:

    Question: There was a report by Pushkar Bhatnagar in 2003, which said something similar to your report. How is your report different from his? What is new in your report?

    Answer: My report is based on the one prepared by Pushkar Bhatnagar. Not only his report, I have relied on several others to come to a conclusion through scientific eliminations.

    So, what they have done is that the work of different persons like me on Lord Rama, has been put at one place i.e., website http://www.historicalrama.com

    Before putting my work on their website, they sought my written permission and I allowed it. So in a nut shell, so far as the astronomical dating of Lord Ram’s era is concerned they have not done anything new. All those dates are the ones which I found. They have mentioned this fact in the text also and given reference to my book as well.

    Pushkar

  • http://www.factusa.org Vikrama

    Whether Ram existed or not, lets save the world right now by following for what he fought for! See how hindus are butchered in Bdesh and Pak
    Do something for them, atleast donate few

    http://www.factusa.org

  • http://www.factusa.org Vikrama

    could you xplain the existense of Parshurama? He exists in Ramayana as well in Mahabaratha?

    TIA

  • sainath

    http://www.rediff.com/news/2007/nov/20inter.htm

    what they have done different than what you have done Pushkarji ??

  • Pushkar Bhatnagar

    Dear VC

    You have raised a very interesting point – Rise of Sea level over the ‘Remains of bridge of Ram’ and estimating with the help of that, the approximate time of era of Lord Ram. It is a big coincidence that this specific suggestion I have also made in my book “”Dating the Era of Lord Ram’. Actually, the place where the remains of bridge are available and can be seen today is called Chedu Karai but it is about 2 Km inside the sea from shore and water is about 10 feet above those stones. In simple terms, it means that since the time of laying those stones, sea has encroached about 2 kms of land and has risen by about 10 feet. Now, rise of sea level is a factual process. Although no empirical data is recorded / available for more than 100 years in the past, yet scientists have made accurate estimates of rate of rise of sea level over last 20,000 years. The data is accurate to the extent of +/- 1500 years. I am posting below that data. You may find it interesting.

    I fully agree that with the idea given by you one can estimate the approximate time period for the era of Lord Ram but you can yourself see from the data given by me that this will also suggest that Lord Ram’s period is not earlier than 7000 years or so.

    Another interesting related point is that in the entire stretch of Ram setu water is no where deeper than 13 meters. That means just before 8000 years from today (+/- 1500 years) the entire stretch between India and Sri Lanka was walkable. There was no water in between. Hence, if we believe that Lord Rama crossed the sea and made a causeway, it has to be an event of 6000 BC or later. I say so, because earlier than 6000 BC, water would have come above ground level only 1,20,000 years ago. In between remained a period of Ice age when the sea level went as low as 130 meters deep. Our earth remains in Ice age in a cycle of about 1 lakh 20 thousand years. I know you understand this concept well, since you have refrerred to that website but I am writing this for the benefit of all.

    You may note that between 8000 and 7000 years ago, there was a sudden and abrupt rise in the sea level by about 7 meters. This rise in about 1000 years is almost equivalent to the entire rise in sea level for the subsequent 7000 years. Hence estimates remain somewhat rough and approximate but nevertheless fit well with the astronomical dating of era of Lord Ram.

    Pushkar Bhatnagar

    Data on rise of Sea level

    Time Sea level from todays level
    21000 years ago -120 meters
    20000 years ago -117 meters
    19000 years ago -108 meters
    18000 years ago -102 meters
    17000 years ago -98 meters
    16000 years ago -94 meters
    15000 years ago -88 meters
    14000 years ago -77 meters
    13000 years ago -64 meters
    12000 years ago -54 meters
    11000 years ago -48 meters
    10000 years ago -36 meters
    9000 years ago -22 meters
    8000 years ago -14 meters
    7000 years ago -6 meters
    6000 years ago -4 meters
    5000 years ago -3 meters
    4000 years ago -2 meters
    3000 years ago -1.4 meters
    2000 years ago -0.7 meters
    1000 years ago -0.3 meters
    Today 0 meters

    Sea level between 8000 and 7000 years ago
    (Assuming a uniform rise of sea level in this period of 1000 years)

    8000 years ago -14 meters
    7875 years ago -13 meters
    7750 years ago -12 meters
    7625 years ago -11 meters
    7500 years ago -10 meters
    7375 years ago -9 meters
    7250 years ago -8 meters
    7125 years ago -7 meters
    7000 years ago -6 meters

    Pushkar Bhatnagar

  • http://www.hitxp.com/ Gurudev

    Pushkarji
    Thank you very much for appreciating this blog. Every time I read about something new and unique, like your research, life becomes more interesting :)
    Thank you very much for providing us with so much more information in the form of comments. I really feel very thrilled, excited and fortunate to see you commenting in this blog.

    Gurudev

  • http://www.kumarvirus1_tripod.com kumar krishna

    der’s no doubt dat ram did existed……..contact 009441240521

  • Pushkar Bhatnagar

    Dear Shri Vijay and VC
    I have read both the above comments. I am extremely sorry to Vijay Ji. My first impression on reading his earlier comment was that perhaps I done the entire work in a casual and summary manner without understanding even the elementary concepts like period of revolution of planets around Sun etc. Honestly, I felt a bit upset over that. Putting that discussion to an end, I sincerely apologise to Shri Vijay for the tone of my reply to his comments.

    I was travelling for last two nights and hence would like to reply to Shri VC at a later point of time.

    Finally, to dear Gurdev, it is my pleasure to be a part of this blog. What impressed me was that without even knowing me, the way you tried to present my work in an unbiased manner. Thanks a lot for this effort.

    Pushkar

  • VC

    I think the information on this site is brilliant. I do have a question for the dating experts (my apologies if this question has already been addressed)

    Given that planetary positions are cyclical, would it be possible to see how far back (from 5114 BC) one would have to go so that the planetrary position are identical to Rama’s birthday?

    I suspect Rama is older than the 5114BC. One reason is that if you triangulate the date against seal level rise over Rama’s bridge, the date should correspond to an earlier time frame (unless the crust in the are has sunk)(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Holocene_Sea_Level.png)

  • http://www.hitxp.com/ Gurudev

    Pushkarji
    Thank you very much for your time and the detailed explanation. I got to know a lot of valuable information from your comments.

    Regards
    Gurudev

  • vijay

    Also, Pushkar could you please send me a copy of the software that you used.
    Thanks.

  • vijay

    Hello Pushkar,

    Thanks for replying back. You seem to have been offended by my posts, while infact if you read my posts again you will notice that I have infact commended you for your efforts. I dont know, but I feel now-a-days people wont even notice that someone is commending them and infact feel always that they are being pulled down. Please note healthy debates are NOT offensive, infact a good author or knowledgeable person should always be open to healthy debates like Gurudev, otherwise the channel for furthering each other’s knowledge would get closed.

    I am sorry if you are not an astrologer or not interested in talking about it, I shall henceforth not discuss astrology with you. I shall make it a point that I ask someone whether he is interested in astrology or not before I talk about it next time. Sorry if you were offended that I assumed you were an astrologer. By the way astrology is nothing but astronomy + predictions. One cannot seperate astronomy (science of planetary movements) from astrology, as astrology is BASED on it. Astrology uses astronomy to calculate planetary movements and then does predictions based on these planetary movements. Hence all the calculations regarding planetary movements are given to the modern world by the rishis and hence one cannot say that both sciences are different.

    There are detailed astronomical movements about the planets given in panchangas, hence I assumed you might have gone through some panchanga. If not, fine let us not discuss panchangas here.

    By the way I am sorry if you were confused by post, but please dont put that I am confusing things myself. Some things which are clear to me might be confusing to others, and vice versa.

    I am in no way doubting your knowledge about the planetary movements. You might have studied them in detail and infact I congratulate you to have put the effort in doing so. But please understand that I am trying to clarify something from you not challenging you. If you dont feel like clarifying my doubts then please say so, its fine, I shall not bother you further. I am trying to clarify things from you as you have already gone through that software where as I havent.

    My doubt was that, did you take into account things which are very important such as position of planets in exact degrees, like, jupiter not just being in cancer but being in 5 degrees in cancer. Because the date which you have arrived at might have jupiter in cancer at that time, but it may be in any of the 30 degrees of cancer. But in Lord Rama’s horoscope it is said to be perfectly exalted, i.e., at 5 degrees in cancer. Similarly for all the other 8 planets.

  • Pushkar Bhatnagar

    Dear All

    The normal view that the planetary combinations are very repetitive in nature is very natural because this remains the normal perception of everyone. But in actual practice this preposition is not well founded. I say so for I have faced this question on so many occasions and answered it to persons with a highly diverse educational background.

    Let me explain. Repetition of one planet in its orbit is simple. Say Saturn completes its orbit around sun in 30 years and therefore if it is in Libra today, it will come back to Libra in 2037 AD. Jupiter completes one rotation around Sun in 12 years and therefore if it is seen in Virgo today, it will be back in Virgo in 2019 AD.

    What is the possibility of both these planets coming back to Libra and Virgo respectively? Answer is simple find the LCM of 30 and 12. It is 60 so after 60 years two will repeat their positions together. Hence in 2067 AD Saturn will be back in Libra while Jupiter will be in Virgo.

    However, things are not so simple in planetary movements. Taking LCM will work only when we deal with integers. Actually Saturn completes its’ revolution in 29.657296 years or 10,759.22 earth days. For Jupiter this period is 11.862615 years or 4,330.666 earth days. For
    Mercury it is 87.97 earth days, Venus it is 0.615 years or 224.7 days and so on. With these kinds of period of revolution the simple method of taking LCM to work out the period of repetition of all these planets together will not work. You will argue that we can simply multiply all the periods of revolution to find out the period of
    repetition. Here again there is an issue.

    Since we all make observations from earth, to us Sun appear to be moving and that is why sun is classified as a PLANET in such observations. Besides its revolution of 12 zodiacs in one year, due to precession of equinoxes, Sun appears to be moving in a cycle of about 25,765 years. If you make an earth centric observation and record the position of Sun today, then it will not comeback to the
    same place again until 27,772 AD. Now what do we get. When sun comes to the same place where will be other planets. You may argue that Sun’s position is not given by Valmiki in terms of exact degrees.
    Rather it is mentioned to be in one zodiac, which spans about 30 degrees. In the precessional cycle Sun would remain in one zodiac for about 2300 years. I agree that yes this is the limitation set by the Sun’s precessional cycle. Within the span 2300 years or so, the combination of all other planets should repeat. Otherwise it will be
    possible only when sun comes back again to that zodiac.

    So in this combination of nine planets (Sun included as a planet) we have some items like Sun taking 25,765 years for its revolution and we also have moon which does not even take one full earth day to move around earth and changes its’ position in less than a day. I must
    point out that Moon being the fastest mover in the sky poses the biggest problem. It remains in one unique position on every day of the lunar year. That means for every day it’s position in the sky is unique. So finding out the time period of repetition of all the nine planets put together remains any mathematician’ s delight.

    I am not a mathematician (though an engineer by educational background) but before writing a book and making it open to public criticism, I at least verified twice, with the help of the software I used, whether this combination of all nine planets put together repeats on any other date between 99999 BC and 2000 AD. Answer I
    found was negative.

    Another point, it is not something peculiar to Lord Ram’s birth time. For every one of us, if we know the position of all planets and the Luni-Solar calendar day (which was shukla navmi for Lord Ram), then that combination will also be unique.

    Besides above, there are some peculiar features in the planetary combination for the date of birth of Lord Ram which do not normally occur very often. I do not know how much knowledge of astronomy you have so would not write about it in detail. Briefly, one of the peculiarities is that in that phase of waxing moon there should have
    been just 13 or at the most 14 days. (as against 15 days normally).

    In case of Lord Ram Valmiki has given details of planetary positions and other astral data for a number of subsequent events. After the date of birth becomes the base date, the planetary data for all these
    subsequent events also tally. This is once again a feature which is self corroborative in nature. No doubt I agree with you that astronomical data in Valmiki Ramayana is very feeble but in my opinion it is enough to arrive at a valid conclusion.

    Pushkar Bhatnagar

  • Pushkar Bhatnagar

    Dear Vijay

    I read your comments and I find that you are confusing too many things.

    First of all clear your impression about a few things:
    a) I am not an astrologer. I have no interest in astrology.
    b) If I have writtten a book on how the dates have been arrived at, please presume that I know in much more details how the planets revolve around sun, what path they take, how much time they take etc. There is a chapter in my book on these basic concepts of astronomy. (not astrology).
    c) Your mails present a bit defeatist attitude that calculations are tedious, complex etc so nothing can be done. This was true when such computations were attempted manually. Now there are sophisticated software available to show when and where planets were located in the sky at any time in future or in the past. I have not done any calculations. No formulae applied. I do not know how Panchangs look like!!
    I have simply found the exact dates when the planets were located in the positions mentioned by Valmiki in Ramayana for certain events which took place in the life of lord Rama.

    Your observation that Ram Navmi takes place in April and hence 10th January is incorrect only shows that you have no idea about the concept of Precession of Equinoxes. Over a period of 7000 years there will be a gap of about 100 days (more than 3 months) in the present dates and english calendar dates, if one works out the dates in that manner.

    As christian era had not started, there is no question of modern english calendar being in use those days but I have given the dates in terms of the modern english calendar so that every common person today can have an understanding as to when Lord Rama’s birth etc took place.

    For your better understanding about the time period of revolution of different planets around Sun and the possiblity of repetition of their positions, I am posting a separate message after this, which a copy of one of my replies to a question asked in a Yahoo Group. Hope you will apprecaite it.

    Pushkar

  • kasi

    dear sir,
    can some body please send me the softcopy which you have to calculate back times.my mail id is kasi_ch@rediffmail.com.

  • kasi

    dear sir,
    can you please send me the softcopy which you have to calculate back times.

  • vijay

    One more thing, remember that Rama Navami is always celebrated somewhere around end of april, that means when Rama was born. Hence my estimation is that, if there was wetern calender during Rama’s period, then he would have clebrated his birthday somewhere around 21st to 26th of april, which is when sun is in 10th degree of aries. now as far as the year of birth is concerned, my view is that only Lord has to come down to earth to tell this, as the calculation involved is tremendous and compunded with the fact that planetory movements is very difficult to be traced back precisely.

  • vijay

    Hi Pushkar,

    Very interesting post by you, good work. I was very much waiting for someone to talk of astrology as I have studied a bit of it. What you said about the positions of planets in various signs is true, only correction being the position of Moon. The nakshatra is punarvasu but the sign is cancer, punarvasu is divided in gemini and cancer. Moon represents one’s mind, mother, etc. Hence as Lord Rama’s moon neing in cancer signifies that he had a very soft and emotional mind. Adding to this, as his moon is in punarvasu nakshatra ( whose lord is jupiter) it means that he was were learned, very good natured ,etc (the characteristics of jupiter – bhrihaspati).

    Now coming back to the positions of the planets in each sign, let us remember that each sign has 30 degrees in it. So the planets can be in any of these 30 degrees. The positions of planets in Rama’s horoscope indicate that all are in exalted position, i.e.,
    Jupiter exalts in Cancer
    Saturn exalts in Libra
    Sun exalts in Aries
    Mars exalts in Capricorn,
    Venus exalts in Pisces.

    The exceptions being -
    Moon is not exalted (exalted in taurus – in Lord Krishna’s horoscope – rohini nakshatra), but is in OWN house – cancer.
    Mercury is debiltated in Pisces,
    Rahu is debiltated in Saggittarius,
    ketu is debiltated in Gemini.

    Now each planet keep moving in all the constellations and each has a period of revolution, for example jupiter stayes in one constellation for apprximately 1 year, moon in one constellation for aaproximately 3 days, and so on. So to get a date on which all 9 planets are in some particular constellations we need to know the movements of these planets over a minus infinite period of time. This is what u said u had traced as 10th January 5114 BC. But the movements of planets in each sign is not so simple, it a very complecated calculation, hence I said jupiter APPROXIMATELY covers 30 degrees of 1 sign in 1 year. This approximation is calculted exatly by the makes of panchangas and horoscope softwares. But as far I have tested these softwares, they can evaluated the positions of planets only upto hundred of years back, after which the results seem to be doubtful. The reason I say this is simple.
    For example, let us take the case of the planet SUN (astrology views SUN as a planet revolving around earth -relativity) which is in each sign for approximately 1 month. according to western astrology sun is in aries from march 21st to april 23rd every year, but according to vedic astrology sun is in aries from approximately 14th april to 14th may every year. so Rama should have been born between these days. But to similarly verify this for other planetary positions is not simple, we need to go back to panchangas for that, as movement of other planets are a bit complicated. Hence the date that u gave of 10th january does not hold.

    Finally the most important part is that, all these 9 planets exalt in the signs that I mentioned only at a specific degree. sun exalts not just in aries but at 10 degrees in aries sign. That is the highest point of exaltation in entire 360 degrees.
    Similarly jupiter exalts in 5 degrees in cancer,
    venus exalts at 27 degrees in pisces,
    mars exalts at 28 degrees in capricorn, saturn at 20 degrees in libra, mercury at 15 degrees in virgo, moon at 3 degrees in taurus, so on. Valmiki has said that Rama was born with jupiter, sun, mars, saturn, venus in their highest degree of exaltation. Hence we have to keep this in mind when trying to estimate the DOB of Lard Rama thru softwares. My estimation is that, such a precise combinatorial matching of 9 planets in specific degrees of 360 degrees is very very rare, and some astrologers predits this to be millions of years ago. I dont know how anyone can ever calculate this date. So, a sofware might predict the in the year xxxx all the planets were in the signs metioned above, but we should keep in mind the exact degrees of exaltation while feeding the details into a software.

    BTW, I charted tendulkar’s horoscope and found that his sun is in 10th degree in aries (born on 24th april) and mars is in 28th degree of capricorn, i.e, highest points of exaltation. sun and mars represent fame, father, soul AND courage, property, sports respectively. Hence we see that he is the master in his sport and look at the fame he has got. (even if he scores 0 he is not so much defamed as when ganguly scores 0). Also his jupiter is debiltated in capricorn, and mercury is debiltated in pisces which is why he didnt prosper in his studies.

  • Pushkar Bhatnagar

    Here are the details of four major events of the life time of Lord Rama, the planetary positions, the inter-se time gaps and the corresponding dates:

    A. Event: Lord Ramas birth
    Planetary positions as per Valmiki Ramayana:
    1) Sun in Aries;
    2) Saturn in Libra;
    3) Jupiter in Cancer;
    4) Venus in Pisces;
    5) Mars in Capricorn;
    6) Lunar month of Chaitra;
    7) Ninth day after no moon (Navmi tithi, Shukla Paksh);
    8) Moon near Punarvasu nakshatra (Pollux star in Gemini constellation) and
    9) Cancer as Lagna or Cancer constellation rising in the east.
    10) Jupiter above the horizon

    Date on which the above conditions were fulfilled: 10th January 5114 BC

    B. Date of exile of Lord Rama

    Planetary positions as per Valmiki Ramayana:
    Mars, Sun and Rahu should be together, preferably in the Pisces constellation near the Purva-Bhadrapad Nakshatra.

    Time gap from the date of birth of Lord Rama: 25 completed years

    Date on which the above conditions were fulfilled: 5th January 5089 BC

    C. Date when Lord Rama fought battle with Khar & Dushan

    Planetary positions as per Valmiki Ramayana:

    1. A solar eclipse visible from Panchwati probably in the afternoon of the day.

    2. Mars should be in the middle of the chain of planets.

    Time gap from the date of exile of Lord Rama: 12 years and nine months.

    Date on which the above conditions were fulfilled: 7th October 5077 BC

    D. Date when Hanuman Visited Lanka and met Sita
    Planetary positions as per Valmiki Ramayana:

    1. Full moon day of either Margshirsh or Paush of the last year of exile

    2. Lunar eclipse probably in the evening of the day

    Time gap from the date of exile of Lord Rama: Margshirsh or Paush of the 14th year

    Date on which the above conditions were fulfilled: 12th September 5076 BC (It turned out to be the month of Margshirsh).

    I hope I have made mysef more clear now. If either the recording of event is incorrect or the software used displays wrong position of astronomical bodies two sets of things will not tally.

    Pushkar Bhatnagar

    Pushkar Bhatnagar

  • Pushkar Bhatnagar

    Tallying a sequence of planetary positions and other astronomical events like solar and lunar eclipse, after given inter-se time gaps, is a self corraborative proof of authenticity of recordings in Ramayana and correctness of findings.

    How can one know, in absolute terms, whether software I used in accurate or used by someone else in accurate. The only possible proof is that if someone has recorded in the remote history the exact date of occurence of an astronomical event then that date and event can be verified to check the accuracy of software. Unfortunately, our ancient texts or even the history of mankind has recorded only astronomical events only, not the correponding dates. So where do we go for verification. Yes, there is an alternative. If your software is accurately showing the occurence of eclipses in modern times as well as events like Venus transit, Mercury Transit, Mars coming closest to earth, Moon being closest to earth for the year etc then it would be enough to hold that software used is accurate. If your software is inaccurate it will show these events also wrongly or at inaccurate times.

    Rest all discussion about accuracy is academic in nature. what is the certificate that the certificate given by an expert is correct ?

    Pushkar Bhatnagar

  • Qoheleth

    Sexy Darling…Gurudev. Laughing Out Loudly…Rolling On The Floor…Now My Stomach Is Aching.

    You know Paramahansa Yogananda? The writer of “”Autobiography Of A Yogi”"? Yogananda’s master, Sri Sri Swami Sri Yukteswar wrote a book, “”The Holy Science”". And in it he deals on this tiring topic of yugas. According to him “”Kali Yuga”" is already over. Yes. You read it right. “”Kali Yuga”" was over by the year 1700 AD. This is “”Dwapara Yuga”" again.

    Go…Read the book. Or if you are lucky…search the internet.

  • http://www.hitxp.com/ Gurudev

    anonymous

    I think the author in the link given by you is mixing up things!

    First and foremost, the software based astronomical dating is all about keying in planetary and stellar positions / geographical locations into the system to provide the exact date of those positions, and has nothing to do with the calendar systems used.
    For example, if the astronomical date says that on a particular event sun was rising on the vernal equinox in constellation leo in the northern hemisphere, this has nothing to do with the calendar system!!

    Secondly, its wrong to say that we dont have any idea about the calendar system used. Right from those days till today its the jyotishya system, that is being used. Surya Siddhanta, Aryabhata etc only added more contributions to it.

    Infact, unlike in western astrology, in Indian vedic astrology, precession effects are taken care! I think its totally incorrect to use the term “”unstable time keeping system”" for such a wonderful date-time system.

    In fact, one should be able to immediately deduce an approximate era of the epics of Ramayana and Mahabharatha just based on the vernal equinox mentioned in them!

    Today the vernal equinox is in Pisces, where as in the vedic ages it was mentioned to be in margashirsha (star around lambda orionis). In the vedic system the new year is considered to start on the day of the vernal equinox. Today its in the month of Chaitra, where as in those days it was in the month of Margashirsha, and this is because of precession in the earth’s axis.

    There is a time gap of four months between today’s new year and the new year of vedic days. Earth takes about 26000 years for one complete precession. Now on this scale a travel of four months takes about 6500 years! So its about 4500 BCE!!

    Ramayana is said to be older than Mahabharatha and vedic texts were a contemporary of Mahabharatha. In other words, even the simple dating technique explained above indicates somewhere around 5000 BCE!

  • anonymous
  • http://www.hitxp.com/ Gurudev

    Thank you very much sir for your comments. We are really grateful and thankful to you for this wonderful research.

    I have updated the information accordingly in the above article.

  • Pushkar Bhatnagar

    Please make a correction in the information provided above. The entire work on astronomical dating the era of Lord Rama has been done by me, Pushkar Bhatnagar. Rupa & Co. have published my work as a book titled ‘Dating the Era of Lord Ram’. Mrs. Saroj Bala’s contribution in this work is absolutely nil.

    I am available at Pushkarbhatnagar@hotmail.com for any of your questions.

  • http://- Narayanan

    Here are some chronological details on Lord Rama which is currently doing rounds in the internet … I got one such mails !

    Lord Rama’s Birth -
    Sri Rama was born on Monday, 17-01-10205 BC on Tamil Nala Varsha, Mesha Chitra 6th Day, on Punarpusa Nakshatra, after Chaitra sukhla Ashtami, The Navami Thithi at around 12 noon.
    At that time the Saptharishis were at Bharani Nakhatra’s 42nd year; i.e. at Bharani’s Madyamam

    He was born on on the Saptharishi Sagaptham which bagan on 13.10.15261 BC, Friday, after a passage of 5056 years in that
    Sagaptham, in the 96th year of the 32nd Mahacycle and on the
    192nd year of the Previous Thretha yuga, based on the astronomical
    details on planet positions given by Saint Valmiki who also had
    great knowledge on Astronomy! It was 12206th Sri Rama Jayanthi on 2nd April 2001!

    Lord Rama’s Beginning of Vanavasa, Ravana Vada and Ayadya Pravesa

    Sri Rama on his 24th year, 19.12.10182 BC, tuesday entered Vanavasa; executed Ravana on 08.01.10167 BC, Friday, Ammavasya day; stayed on Bharathwaja’s Asharam on
    Wednesday,13.01.10167 BC, completing his Vanavasa and
    entered Ayodya on 14th January 10167 BC.

    Sri Rama Pattabhishekam

    On the next day, 15.01.10167, Friday, on Pusa nakshatra day
    was crowned as king and ruled for 11 years. The Mid-Sanga literature, current at that time are known to have records in praise of Lord Rama!!

    That Thretha Yuga ended after 3648 years on Monday, the 4th of December 6749 BC.

  • http://www.hitxp.com/ Gurudev

    Vicky
    If we go by the vedic time period of Yuga scales, Ramayana dates back to prehistoric era and the epic contains both neanderthaloids (thought to be monkeys today) and homo sapiens (humans). Note that its not only monkey like men, but also bear like men like jambuvantha etc that are mentioned in the epic!

    Please see
    http://www.theosophy-nw.org/theosnw/science/sc-moff2.htm

    Srikanth,
    Yes, this was a research I thought that was worth mentioning, because of the purely scientific methods involved in it. Yes, it is also possible that the same astronomical dating could also be possible for dates as long back as the mentioned Tretayuga cycle.
    Please see the same link that I mentioned above
    http://www.theosophy-nw.org/theosnw/science/sc-moff2.htm

  • Vicky

    Well, Apart fromn the Current topic but realted to the fact whether Ramayan was a Fact or Fiction??
    All the proof provided by GD and on other sites and by some researchers convince me, The missing link is.
    Ramayan says that Ram fought the war along with a army of monkeys. and Hanuman was like his right hand…

    GD could u please explain the fact that
    Even during that century, how is it logical to have a Army of monkeys who can build BRIDGE or Some One like. Hanuman half human half Monkey.

    Could u explain it in logical way it really a Army of monkeys or Did it meant somethign else. WHo was HANUMAN exactly….???

  • Srikanth

    Namste,

    As per this research the birth date of Rama is on January 10, 5114 BC ! which was ~2000 years before Mahabharat period. But Ramayana is well known to have happened in Treta yug which lasts for 1,296,000 years. Dwapara Yug follows which lasts for 864,000 years. We know that Dwapara ended just after Mahabharata and Kali Yuga began which has lasted ~5000 years so far. But according to the researched date, sri Ramas birth is 5114 BC which is ~2000 years before Mahabharat period which was Dwapara period!!. Even if you say Ramayana happened at the end of Treta Yuga, where are the rest of 846000 2000 = 844000 years of Dwapara accounted for? The yugs are well known timeline chunks and are based on astronomical calender, I am not cooking up anything.

    I am not trying to find fault either, but just want to understand things as they are and get the fundamentals right so that when people like Karuna start blabbering, I am able to answer convincingly.

    regards
    Srikanth

  • http://www.hitxp.com/ Gurudev

    Rakesh
    I dont think its baseless, because anything done from a scientific perspective deserves attention. The dating is based on astronomical hints present in the texts.

  • Rakesh

    Hi Gurudev…….

    Well Ram’s birth date according to research by Saroj
    babla looks pale?? at one point they researched that Krishna seems to be born around 3512 bc…….i think this research is wrong & baseless